Author Topic: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way  (Read 121625 times)

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #180 on: June 25, 2006, 01:17:19 pm »
Wow! My 200th post already! Brokeback did get me good. Not that I've been in any doubt about that since December-05.

I'm going to spend the bi-centenary post on the double meanings on a very obscure line of dialogue. (I've just had confirmation in another thread that I'm not the only onw who's hearing this - and one variant of it has been left included in the final published script which also indicates it's actually still there in the film.) As Jack and Ennis is riding through woodland and over moss, Jack in his blue parka (right before the switch to the scene with Jack and Bobby in the tractor), Jack says:

"I wish I could rope a coyote."

Which is a joke, of course - but which also reminds us (and probably Ennis) of Jack's roping Ennis that last day up on Brokeback, - all the strong elements of love and pain mixed in with that memory.

It's also a reminder of Jack's "dumb-ass missin'" and inability to *shoot* coyotes. It's an indication of Jack's personality - he isn't about to just give up,- if he can't make it one way he'll look for another means to the desired end.....

And what are the Brokeback Coyotes symbolic of? They're predators, the threat to the flock and the killer of that particular sheep that serves as a warning and omen to Ennis after the FNIT/TS1.... So can the sentence symbolically be understood as Jack wanting to rope and tie and render inactive the forces threatening his and Ennis's love? Or is Jack's wish rather illustrating the certain unrealistic and dangerous element in his dreams: What would he ever do with a coyote, how would he manage to handle it, or that which it symbolizes; - should he manage to rope it?
« Last Edit: June 25, 2006, 01:26:33 pm by Mikaela »

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #181 on: June 25, 2006, 01:29:00 pm »
And what are the Brokeback Coyotes symbolic of? They're predators, the treath to the flock and the killer of that particular sheep that serves as a warning and omen to Ennis after the FNIT/TS1.... So can the sentence symbolically be understood as Jack wanting to rope and tie and render inactive the forces threatening his and Ennis's love? Or is Jack's wish rather illustrating the certain unrealistic and dangerous element in his dreams: What would he ever do with a coyote, how would he manage to handle it, or that which it symbolizes; - should he manage to rope it?

I pick A. But both are quite plausible. What a funny movie! One in which you can find deeper meaning in a line that only 2 percent of viewers will be able to hear, and of those, only 2 percent will be able to detect a second layer of meaning! So what is 2 percent of 2 percent ... those of you people with math skills? Is that .0004 percent of viewers?

Oh, and Mikaela -- I note your use of FNIT/TS1. Am I correct in suspecting you noticed a discussion on that subject in another thread? Tell you what, how bout I start a poll about this and we can determine once and for all our official terminology!

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #182 on: June 25, 2006, 01:41:57 pm »
Yes, you are correct in your suspicion. I'd just like to make sure the scene(s) in question are identified and the abbreviation understood by the readers. So I'll abide by any consensus that this board might reach in that regard.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #183 on: June 25, 2006, 01:48:18 pm »
Not only is Ennis always leaving Jack, but Ennis is not there when Jack needs him. Jack always has to face the hostile world by himself, tho Ennis would make the perfect champion for him. Two times when Aguirre comes bringing bad news Ennis is away, and later when Jack goes back and has to endure humiliation by Aguirre. Then, Jack dies because there is no one there to turn him over and keep him from drowning. Ennis is left alone because he left Jack alone when he really needed him.  :'(
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #184 on: June 25, 2006, 01:49:25 pm »
OK, done. Here's the poll. Let the voting begin!

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=2853.0

Offline OldeSoul

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #185 on: June 25, 2006, 06:11:35 pm »
Wow- just spent a good while reading through this entire thread and tell you what, you guys are freakin amazing.

Jack:
When Jack pulls up to Ennis’s house after the divorce, you can hear on Jack’s radio: “...went nuts for it!” >> “Jack went nuts for Ennis” (or vice versa]
Also, after Jack drives off, while he's crying, the line of the Emmylou Harris song that is playing during that scene is "...your laughter's like wind in my sails..." which I always took to be a nod towards the Jack/Wind relationship. And now Jack is obviously not laughing (it's actually the only time in the movie that we see him cry, isn't it?)

And if you don't mind me interjecting a line:

When Aguirre comes up the Mountain to tell Jack that his Uncle Harold is in the hospital,
Jack: Bad news, but there's nothing I can do about it up here.
Aguirre: Not much you can do about it down there neither, unless you can cure pneumonia. (as he is looking at Ennis, displeased, through his binoculars)


I've always taken this to be somewhat of a rebuttal to the "one shot thing" line. In other words, this "thing" is not going to go away just because you come down off the mountain. And also, that Jack (and Ennis, I suppose) are powerless to change the way they feel.

And on top of that, I see the binoculars (or Aguirre's use of the binoculars- he wouldn't have seen Jack and Ennis together without them, unless he came up the mountain himself and happened upon them) as a representation of how society and government is stepping over their bounds in regulating the behavior of homosexuals: sodomy laws, not allowing homosexuals to marry, etc. Why should it even bother anyone? And yet they go at great lengths (i.e. use their big binoculars) to spy on and regulate even the most private and remote parts of human experience.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2006, 06:13:13 pm by OldeSoul »
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Offline dly64

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #186 on: June 25, 2006, 08:50:17 pm »
And on top of that, I see the binoculars (or Aguirre's use of the binoculars- he wouldn't have seen Jack and Ennis together without them, unless he came up the mountain himself and happened upon them) as a representation of how society and government is stepping over their bounds in regulating the behavior of homosexuals: sodomy laws, not allowing homosexuals to marry, etc. Why should it even bother anyone? And yet they go at great lengths (i.e. use their big binoculars) to spy on and regulate even the most private and remote parts of human experience.

I think it is interesting that you use this analogy.There may be some truth in what you say. However, I want to avoid the expectation that BBM is a vehicle to express a larger social message. IMO, this film is a tragic story specifically about these two men who love each other, who live in a time and place where they don't know what to do with their love, and eventually hurt everyone around them, including each other. Although this is a simplistic way of describing BBM, I think it is the backbone of the whole story. (i.e. it is the personal love story between  Jack and Ennis).
Diane

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Offline OldeSoul

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #187 on: June 25, 2006, 09:34:12 pm »
I think it is interesting that you use this analogy.There may be some truth in what you say. However, I want to avoid the expectation that BBM is a vehicle to express a larger social message. IMO, this film is a tragic story specifically about these two men who love each other, who live in a time and place where they don't know what to do with their love, and eventually hurt everyone around them, including each other. Although this is a simplistic way of describing BBM, I think it is the backbone of the whole story. (i.e. it is the personal love story between  Jack and Ennis).
Oh I definitely understand and hesitated to even include this, because I agree that BBM doesn't necessarily strive to make any commentary on society as a whole (outside of the story itself and its effect on the two men), just as some people are hesitant to read any deeper religious symbolism into it, either. But when I see those binoculars and how he used them- it has a great meaning for me personally.  :)

Am I interpreting the Aguirre conversation correctly, though, do you all think? I always knew there was something deeper there.
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Offline dly64

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #188 on: June 25, 2006, 09:55:41 pm »
Aguirre: Not much you can do about it down there neither, unless you can cure pneumonia. (as he is looking at Ennis, displeased, through his binoculars)[/b]

I've always taken this to be somewhat of a rebuttal to the "one shot thing" line. In other words, this "thing" is not going to go away just because you come down off the mountain. And also, that Jack (and Ennis, I suppose) are powerless to change the way they feel.

I have a more simplistic view ... I just think it is Aguirre's way of showing that he knows what is going on and that he's not too pleased.
Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em."

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #189 on: June 26, 2006, 03:56:32 am »
IMO, this film is a tragic story specifically about these two men who love each other, who live in a time and place where they don't know what to do with their love, and eventually hurt everyone around them, including each other. Although this is a simplistic way of describing BBM, I think it is the backbone of the whole story. (i.e. it is the personal love story between  Jack and Ennis).

IMO, one of the most amazing things about BBM is that it is completely both at the same time. It is a personal love story with no overt message at all. If a Martian watched it, he/she/it would be oblivious to any larger political implications.

Meanwhile, the story subtly plays upon what viewers know about real life, and tells us something about what society imposes on gay people in general, in 1960s Wyoming as well as in many other eras and cultures. For example, the very fact that the final images involve closets -- the word we happen to use to describe hidden homosexuality -- is not the least bit accidental. The beauty is that it's never at all preachy or hit-you-over-the-head obvious.