Author Topic: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way  (Read 121687 times)

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #280 on: February 21, 2012, 12:35:09 am »
I just let my eye scan the story, and here's the line it fell on:

"They could hear the river muttering and making a distant train sound a long way off."

Remember where this occurred in the story?

Here's what Kathryn had to say back in 2006 about whether Jack and Ennis might have actually fished:

You would think so. But I was thinking about how the price tag was still on the tackle after five years, and how Alma's note had never seen water in its life, and how they never brought any fish home.

In a long-ago comic thread, there was a line advising that cowboys on fishing trips should: "Always bring some fish home. Make sure it is thawed by the time you get there."
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline x-man

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #281 on: September 02, 2013, 05:02:13 pm »
I only read the first and last several pages of this topic site, so perhaps this has already been discussed--but maybe not.  As long as we are looking at BBM this closely, to be gritty, who was the top--Jack or Ennis?  Or were they versatile?  This question is often secretly wondered about when someone (especially a gay man) meets a male/male couple.

The short story has two things to say.  In the reunion motel scene Ennis asks Jack if he had been doing it with other guys.  "'Shit no," said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own," suggesting Jack as top.  A bit earlier, however, Jack compliments Ennis on his sexual performance, saying, "Christ, it got to be all that time a yours ahorseback makes it so goddamn good"--Jack as bottom.

The movie is similarly ambiguous.  In their first night together, although Jack initiates the encounter by pulling Ennis' hand over his crotch, Ennis responds most definitely as top.  The next night, however, Ennis comes into the tent and shyly offers himself to Jack who quickly rolls on top of him.  In the following scene when they are roughhousing around in front of the tent (when Aguillar sees them in binoculars) Ennis pushes Jack down and straddles him while kissing him.

Both the short story and the film leave the question up in the air, but given the character of the two men--Ennis' repression and fear of things gay versus Jack's easygoing and accommodating nature--is it not likely that Ennis was, at least usually, the top, and Jack went along with it?
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Offline x-man

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #282 on: September 03, 2013, 11:58:27 pm »
That's Aguirre, not Aguillar.  Sorry.
Happiness is the lasting pleasure of the mind grasping the intelligible order of reality.      --Leibniz

Offline x-man

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #283 on: September 10, 2013, 08:15:37 am »
Regarding my posting above, I hope no one was grossed out or turned off.  I meant it as a gentle send-up of the microscopically close examinations of text and film that lead to hidden meanings absolutely everywhere.  As Freud pointed out, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."  My evidence was suppositional and led to completely contrary conclusions.  Who knows which cowboy did what, and should we even care?  Again, I hope I didn't offend anyone.  I was just having a little fun.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #284 on: September 10, 2013, 12:38:48 pm »
The short story has two things to say.  In the reunion motel scene Ennis asks Jack if he had been doing it with other guys.  "'Shit no," said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own," suggesting Jack as top.  A bit earlier, however, Jack compliments Ennis on his sexual performance, saying, "Christ, it got to be all that time a yours ahorseback makes it so goddamn good"--Jack as bottom.

See, I've always taken that to mean exactly the opposite, that Jack had been "riding" other men's dicks--especially in light of the "ahorseback" line. On the other hand, I know of others who take the "ahorseback" line to suggest that Ennis is a good fuck because all that time ahorseback has developed his muscles so that he can squeeze nice and tight, whereas I take it to mean he's a good fucker because all that time ahorseback has developed his thigh muscles, so he's a good thruster. I guess it's a mixing of metaphors in the "riding more than bulls, not rolling his own" that makes the line ambiguous. "Rolling his own" surely must refer to masturbation, so then what is the sentence saying, Jack has been fucking other guys, not jerking off, or getting fucked, not jerking off? Everyone has his or her own opinion.

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Both the short story and the film leave the question up in the air, but given the character of the two men--Ennis' repression and fear of things gay versus Jack's easygoing and accommodating nature--is it not likely that Ennis was, at least usually, the top, and Jack went along with it?

I've always felt that Ennis is always on top, because a guy can fuck another guy and still avoid seeing himself as gay, whereas only queers take it up the ass--as Ennis might have put it.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline x-man

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #285 on: September 11, 2013, 10:00:45 am »
"Swear to god I didn't know we was goin a get into this again--..." but Jeff Wrangler's (#284) posting has called me back.  What I said when I originally asked who the top was (#281) stands for the point I was making there, but it does not say how I really feel about the issue.  Most/all gay men recognize that JW's analysis is definitely the correct one.  Straight people, JW is telling it the way it is; believe him.  And he is telling it in an outrageously funny way.  I crack up every time I read it.  If you missed the humour you're missing a lot.

I want to add one thing that confirms Jeff Wrangler's comment "...a guy can fuck another guy and still avoid seeing himself as gay, whereas only queers take it up the ass--as Ennis might have put it"  Yes, Ennis might well have put it that way.  Consider what he says to Jack in the final argument:  "I know what they got in Mexico for boys like you."  Boys like you??  In his anger Ennis discounts Jack's manliness, alludes to Jack's getting fucked, puts a distance between the two men, and reinforces the 20-year fiction that he is not gay while Jack is.  This is about the darkest thing that Ennis has ever said.  The closer we look the more we feel for Jack in keeping the relationship going in the face of Ennis' negativity and illusions.  Ennis was really fucked up, but Jack would still love him.  That is a message of hope for a lot of us.   
Happiness is the lasting pleasure of the mind grasping the intelligible order of reality.      --Leibniz

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #286 on: September 11, 2013, 12:35:21 pm »
Over the years, the two mostly expressed viewpoints re your question if Ennis is always the top are the following:

Yes, Ennis is always top because "he ain't queer". Jeff put this train of thought very well.

The other is that maybe Ennis was more versatile than you'd think. There are some differences in characterization between Ennis in the book and Ennis in the movie. Ennis in the book is more verbally expressive (the scene in the Siesta Motel) and seems less self-hating than his movie counterpart. In a generalizing way, you could say book Ennis is more afraid of the outer world than of himself/his feelings for Jack. To put it in your words: book Ennis is a little less f*cked up than movie Ennis.
Taking this into account, plus the fact that in a time span of twenty years many boundaries/thresholds between two intimate people tend to fall, one could argue that at least book Ennis wasn't necessarily always top.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #287 on: September 11, 2013, 04:20:39 pm »
"Swear to god I didn't know we was goin a get into this again--..." but Jeff Wrangler's (#284) posting has called me back.  What I said when I originally asked who the top was (#281) stands for the point I was making there, but it does not say how I really feel about the issue.  Most/all gay men recognize that JW's analysis is definitely the correct one.  Straight people, JW is telling it the way it is; believe him.  And he is telling it in an outrageously funny way.  I crack up every time I read it.  If you missed the humour you're missing a lot.

Well, thank you kindly, x-man. I'm glad you got enjoyment out of reading my post.  :)

Your post, and writing my response to it, got me thinking about things I haven't thought about in quite some time now. I found myself thinking about the scene in the film where we see Jack walking up that alley in Juarez, before he hooks up with the hustler (and I tend to feel the Mexican is a hustler, I suppose because he addresses Jack as "Senor," rather than just saying "Hola," or "Buenos noches," or something like that--it just strikes me that this is what someone who is selling sexual services might say, rather than what someone who is looking to share sex would say).

The look on Jack's face as he heads up that alley is not the look of someone looking for someone to fuck. No, it's the look of someone with a desperate need to be fucked. I know that look. I've seen it often enough in more than 20 years spent socializing in a deliberately rather dark and seedy environment--not too different from that alley, except that it has a liquor license.

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I want to add one thing that confirms Jeff Wrangler's comment "...a guy can fuck another guy and still avoid seeing himself as gay, whereas only queers take it up the ass--as Ennis might have put it"  Yes, Ennis might well have put it that way.  Consider what he says to Jack in the final argument:  "I know what they got in Mexico for boys like you."  Boys like you??  In his anger Ennis discounts Jack's manliness, alludes to Jack's getting fucked, puts a distance between the two men, and reinforces the 20-year fiction that he is not gay while Jack is.

I agree, and I think it's really kind of sad that in his hurt and anger Ennis lashes out and demeans Jack for something Jack has been letting Ennis do for 20 years.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline x-man

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #288 on: September 12, 2013, 02:21:11 pm »
"without saying anything about it both knew how it would go for the rest of the summer, sheep be damned."  This line sums up to me the difference between the short story and the movie.  I agree that book Ennis is not as hung up about being gay, etc., as movie Ennis, and is in general not as fucked up.  It's the movie that carries all the nuances.  (The "boys like you" line does not even appear in the story.)  If we look only at the story, Penthesilea, that in their time together whatever Ennis' fears at the beginning, "in a time span of twenty years many boundaries/thresholds between two intimate people would fall..."  But not in the movie.

In the film we have basically 3 things to look at:  Jack with Ennis, Jack with the hustler, and Jack with Randall.  Jeff Wrangler has pretty well explored movie Jack and Ennis.  Regarding the Mexico scene, the man is obviously a hustler, not only because he addresses Jack as Senor, but because he is standing waiting under a light on a gay cruising street.  The only thing missing from the street were twinks, and one would have expected them to be there.  (Google <twink gay slang> if you don't know what I mean.)  Given the sexual stereotyping in the US then (and now?) and the widespread Mexican phenomenon of romantic relationships between older men and adolescents, if Jack had been wanting someone to fuck he would have looked for a young man who appeared the (stereotypical) type to be his bottom.  But he chooses a strongly-built older man instead.  That told me what Jack was looking for more than the expression on his face.

Randall's subtle come-on to Jack was cute, and left Jack with that "Did he really say what I thought he said?" look on his face.  Randall was a tall bear, not a good prospect as a bottom in Jack's sexually unsophisticated mind.  But Jack wasn't looking for a bottom--he never was  Jack wasn't "letting Ennis do (it) for 20 years."  Jack thoroughly enjoyed it, and he was as much of a man as Ennis was, top or bottom.

JW, is "riding dick" a local expression for sucking cock?  I've never heard it before.  Here "riding" is associated with something else--like riding bareback (not a no-no in BBM days).
 
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #289 on: September 12, 2013, 02:39:51 pm »
In the film we have basically 3 things to look at:  Jack with Ennis, Jack with the hustler, and Jack with Randall.  Jeff Wrangler has pretty well explored movie Jack and Ennis.  Regarding the Mexico scene, the man is obviously a hustler, not only because he addresses Jack as Senor, but because he is standing waiting under a light on a gay cruising street.  The only thing missing from the street were twinks, and one would have expected them to be there.  (Google <twink gay slang> if you don't know what I mean.)  Given the sexual stereotyping in the US then (and now?) and the widespread Mexican phenomenon of romantic relationships between older men and adolescents, if Jack had been wanting someone to fuck he would have looked for a young man who appeared the (stereotypical) type to be his bottom.  But he chooses a strongly-built older man instead.  That told me what Jack was looking for more than the expression on his face.

This is something I didn't know, which, I guess, is why the look on Jack's face told me more than the build of his choice of partner.

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JW, is "riding dick" a local expression for sucking cock?  I've never heard it before.  Here "riding" is associated with something else--like riding bareback (not a no-no in BBM days).

Not here in Pennsylvania it isn't. I meant Jack was takin' it up the ol' Hershey Highway (which may be a Pennsylvania expression  ;D ).
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.