Yin and Yang: Ennis and Jack

[nakymaton]

But how do you know that there wasn't another full moon between Jack's first night with the sheep and the first tent scene? All we know is that it's at least a month before the first tent scene. Could be longer.

(It's got to be at least two weeks before the bear encounter, because Ennis only brings a grocery order down once a week, and he sent at least one order with powdered milk and potatoes. So if the 1st tent scene is in June's full moon, they've got to shoot the elk and dry the jerky and switch jobs and move the sheep in those two weeks. Which is possible, but still... there's a lot of stuff in those two weeks.)

(No, wait, if Jack was being literal about "That's more words than you've spoke in the past two weeks," meaning they've been up on the mountain only two weeks... then Jack is sick of beans before the first week is out and their first grocery supply is already short? Maybe that's possible. Jack sure doesn't like those beans, then, huh?)

(And I also wonder, sometimes, if May isn't a bit early to head up to treeline. I'm trying to think about the work I've done in Wyoming... I know we worried about going up too high even in June, though I never had a problem with snow when I was up there. I know that here, quite a ways further south, there's still snow up near treeline where I've seen sheep herds, even right now.)

[Meryl]

But how do you know that there wasn't another full moon between Jack's first night with the sheep and the first tent scene? All we know is that it's at least a month before the first tent scene. Could be longer.

(It's got to be at least two weeks before the bear encounter, because Ennis only brings a grocery order down once a week, and he sent at least one order with powdered milk and potatoes. So if the 1st tent scene is in June's full moon, they've got to shoot the elk and dry the jerky and switch jobs and move the sheep in those two weeks. Which is possible, but still... there's a lot of stuff in those two weeks.)

(No, wait, if Jack was being literal about "That's more words than you've spoke in the past two weeks," meaning they've been up on the mountain only two weeks... then Jack is sick of beans before the first week is out and their first grocery supply is already short? Maybe that's possible. Jack sure doesn't like those beans, then, huh?)

(And I also wonder, sometimes, if May isn't a bit early to head up to treeline. I'm trying to think about the work I've done in Wyoming... I know we worried about going up too high even in June, though I never had a problem with snow when I was up there. I know that here, quite a ways further south, there's still snow up near treeline where I've seen sheep herds, even right now.)

Well, you have a point that a lot has to happen in a short time if all of that happens in a month.  I might take Jack's "two weeks" reference as just an expression, and that would give them more leeway.  But if it does take them two months before they get together, then they must go up in May.

Here is an excerpt I saved from IMDb by posted by surf.  What he says about the reference to the Thresher incident might help out the argument for a May startup.

Assuming they go up on the mountain in the spring, I found out the full moon for May, 1963, which happened to be May 8 (if you remember, the first night on the mountain, there was a full moon). So assume they had their "job interview" with Aguirre on May 7 (he says they'll truck them up the next day)--May 7, 1963 was a Monday, which makes sense for starting the workweek.

So they meet on May 7, head up the mountain on May 8. The first night in the tent there was also a full moon which would mean a month had passed since they met. The full moon in June was June 7, 1963. Again, that makes sense since Ennis got so cold when the fire died out. It wasn't the heat of the summer yet.

Why is any of this important? It's not, really, but I find some comfort in knowing they had more than two months of loving each other before they had to leave the mountain.”

“These dates also make sense because in the story (this isn't in the movie) it mentions that they talked about the Thresher sinking. That happened on April 10, 1963 so it was just a month prior to their start up on the mountain. Clearly it would still be on their minds as a topic of conversation.”

[nakymaton]

There ought to still be snow up high on May 7. (And near treeline, there really isn't any heat of the summer. Certainly not in the middle of the night... it gets cold at night, even down at my elevation. In the mountains, I still sleep in a warm sleeping bag plus long underwear at mid-summer.)

Sorry. I know IMDb established this timeline quite a while back, and everybody's been going by it, but it just doesn't make sense to me, and it's been niggling at me for a long time. It just conflicts with what I know about mountain weather. And I know that a later start plus a two-month lag before the first tent scene makes the relationship painfully short... but that would make it make Ennis's reaction when they have to come down make even more sense.

[alec716]

I'm glad this thread is still active -- even though I am feeling unable to add anything to it at the moment other than my terrific appreciation of the details and theories discussed here.  Thanks to everyone for the great ideas -- I am glad to learn more about the endless layers of symbolism that whip by the eyes and ears in nearly every scene in this movie.  You've given me so much more to look for next time I watch it.  I just KNEW there was something about that odd-looking cherry cake!

[Brown Eyes]

Yee haw Meryl!  Thanks, that's exactly the shot I was talking about!

Also, thanks for re-posting the great old imdb observation by surf (who is surf, by the way... is he/ she here?).  I absolutely remember that old imdb thread and was amazed by the level of detail people were able to research.  I have to say, it seems very smart to look into the actual dates of the full moons for 1963.  And I agree with that old post too...  I want the first tent scene to happen early, at least in June, so that I can go on believing that they had a good amount of time together as lovers that summer.  The "never enough time, never enough" problem with this story/ movie is just too brutal.
 

Anyway, more on timelines... was the imdb thread about the dates of the full moons also the one where people figured out (or tried to figure out) the exact timeline of our boys' entire relationship (based on as many background clues as possible)?  That was really a smart topic.  I also remember another thread about whether or not Lureen was pregnant already when she hooked up with Jack (I recall that there were some solid arguments about that one).

Timelines may deserve their own thread around these parts. 

ps.  Welcome alec716!  You want a cup of coffee don't you... a piece of odd-looking cherry cake?
  

[starboardlight]

But how do you know that there wasn't another full moon between Jack's first night with the sheep and the first tent scene? All we know is that it's at least a month before the first tent scene. Could be longer.

(It's got to be at least two weeks before the bear encounter, because Ennis only brings a grocery order down once a week, and he sent at least one order with powdered milk and potatoes. So if the 1st tent scene is in June's full moon, they've got to shoot the elk and dry the jerky and switch jobs and move the sheep in those two weeks. Which is possible, but still... there's a lot of stuff in those two weeks.)

(No, wait, if Jack was being literal about "That's more words than you've spoke in the past two weeks," meaning they've been up on the mountain only two weeks... then Jack is sick of beans before the first week is out and their first grocery supply is already short? Maybe that's possible. Jack sure doesn't like those beans, then, huh?)

(And I also wonder, sometimes, if May isn't a bit early to head up to treeline. I'm trying to think about the work I've done in Wyoming... I know we worried about going up too high even in June, though I never had a problem with snow when I was up there. I know that here, quite a ways further south, there's still snow up near treeline where I've seen sheep herds, even right now.)

it is entirely possible. I don't think we were able to determine whether it was June or July. Even in the moon dates thread, we clearly said that we're going on assumption that it was June, because July made their time together too painfully short. But you make very good case for why it might actually be July, in which case, my heart just breaks all over again.

[Meryl]

From nakymaton
And I know that a later start plus a two-month lag before the first tent scene makes the relationship painfully short... but that would make it make Ennis's reaction when they have to come down make even more sense.

It would also make the tussle and their parting scene in Signal less jarring.  Two months of making love would seem to merit a warmer parting than the one we get.

Yee haw Meryl!  Thanks, that's exactly the shot I was talking about!

Also, thanks for re-posting the great old imdb observation by surf (who is surf, by the way... is he/ she here?).  I absolutely remember that old imdb thread and was amazed by the level of detail people were able to research.  I have to say, it seems very smart to look into the actual dates of the full moons for 1963.  And I agree with that old post too...  I want the first tent scene to happen early, at least in June, so that I can go on believing that they had a good amount of time together as lovers that summer.  The "never enough time, never enough" problem with this story/ movie is just too brutal.
 

Anyway, more on timelines... was the imdb thread about the dates of the full moons also the one where people figured out (or tried to figure out) the exact timeline of our boys' entire relationship (based on as many background clues as possible)?  That was really a smart topic.  I also remember another thread about whether or not Lureen was pregnant already when she hooked up with Jack (I recall that there were some solid arguments about that one).

Timelines may deserve their own thread around these parts.

Leslie had a moon thread going at some point.  I used it to make up the Brokeback Cult Calendar, which I hope to repost one of these days.  It has all our 'religious' holidays and special events on it. 

Surf105 was a frequent poster at IMDb, and he was at BetterMost for a few weeks before losing interest and dropping by the wayside.  He could be cantankerous, but was funny and very devoted for awhile.  He was one of the Brokies who went to see the cast at the Aero screening in L.A. and made a big impression with his comments to them at the end of the Q & A.

I remember that Lureen pregnancy thread.  One poster even thought she was pregnant by someone other than Jack and used him to cover it up!   

[Brown Eyes]

Wow, I had a really interesting conversation today with a professor of Japanese art and three other people I know during which, I couldn't wait   to get to my computer and post here.  It was a long convoluted discussion and at a certain point the professor ended up talking about one of the key ways that yin and yang is understood in Chinese philosophy. He actually drew a yin and yang symbol and explained that it's often understood as symbol for a way in which Confucianism and Taoism intersect and are linked, but are also opposites in lots of ways.  And at another point he started explaining a major feature of Taoism, which is that the idea of "nothing" is really important.  An understanding of a state of "nothingness" is considered an exulted, almost triumphant thing... reaching "nothing" is part of the idea of striving for something like nirvana or can be considered a state beyond the stress and turmoil of average existence, etc.  I truly don't understand this very well myself, but I thought this was worth reporting.  If anyone knows anything more about this topic, I'd love to hear more.  We were talking about Japanese woodblock prints with the professor and all I could think about was this thread and Ennis and the number of times Ennis uses the word "nothing" in BBM... (if this isn't an obsession... I don't know what is)...
 

Of course the key moments when Ennis talks about "nothing" are "It's because of you Jack that I'm like this.  I'm nothing, I'm nowhere."  and then with Alma Jr. "If you don't got nothing you don't need nothing."

So, if we think about Ennis truly in terms of yin and yang and for the sake of argument think of "nothing" as a positive thing (since in Taoism it seems possible to think of nothing as a good thing), then his statement to Jack is really interesting.  I don't quite know how to understand his statement to Alma other than to note he seems to be saying he's content with his nothingness or simple, spare existence.  I certainly think there's another, and probably more obvious, way to interpret all the "nothings" that come out of Ennis's mouth... I think of them as signs of low self-esteem or manifestations of his internalized homophobia, etc.   But, I think it's really interesting that even the word "nothing" can be taken in two opposite ways.

[nakymaton]

Hmmmm... nothingness in Taoism. My understanding of Taoism is that, if I try to talk about it, I am grasping at Something, trying to tie meaning into words. The concept is tied to "emptiness," and it's tied to the Zen Buddhist concepts, as far as I understand them (which is not very far).

I associate the concepts with letting go of baggage, with peace of mind, with a willingness to let the unknown be unknown. ("There was some open space...") With a lack of attachment -- especially attachment to ideas.

There's a lot of great nature imagery in the Tao Te Ching. I don't like my translation very much, but this quote reminds me of BBM, and especially of Ennis.

Nature speaks little.
Squalls do not last the morning
Nor downpours the day.
What stirs them up?
Heaven-and-earth!

Another one that sort of gets at the idea of nothingness:

Whoever acts spoils;
Whoever grasps loses.
The sage does nothing.
He grasps nothing;
Therefore he loses nothing.

[alec716]

This line of thought about nothingness and somethingness is also very closely related to Buddhist theory about nirvana, nonattachment, and other related concepts.  I am Jewish but do a lot of Buddhist reading.  I can recommend some very approachable authors, such as Thich Nhat Hahn, if anyone is interested in learning more.  I will spin these thoughts around and see if I can come up with anything that seems useful.