Author Topic: what possessed Jack to take that shirt in the first place?  (Read 37157 times)

Offline serious crayons

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Re: what possessed Jack to take that shirt in the first place?
« Reply #60 on: June 06, 2006, 01:46:41 am »
I think one of the things that Mendelsohn gets wrong is the idea that Ennis only now understands that Jack loved him.  It's a beautiful sentence though.  I'm quite sure that Ennis knew this all along...

I totally agree. Frankly, I've never liked that line, beautifully written or not. I think the shirts cause Ennis to see their relationship in a new way (he realizes he should should have made it his first priority), and also bring home in a heartbreakingly concrete way the fact that Jack is gone and how little Ennis has to remember him by. But I've never thought that Ennis didn't understand the depth of Jack's love.

When I go back and read reviews now, I'm always amazed at how superficial they are compared to the discussions we have here. Though not really surprised -- critics have to think and write incredibly fast, often formulating complex opinions on the basis of one viewing. I've never understood how they can do it.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: what possessed Jack to take that shirt in the first place?
« Reply #61 on: June 06, 2006, 09:39:48 pm »
I totally agree. Frankly, I've never liked that line, beautifully written or not. I think the shirts cause Ennis to see their relationship in a new way (he realizes he should should have made it his first priority), and also bring home in a heartbreakingly concrete way the fact that Jack is gone and how little Ennis has to remember him by. But I've never thought that Ennis didn't understand the depth of Jack's love.

When I go back and read reviews now, I'm always amazed at how superficial they are compared to the discussions we have here. Though not really surprised -- critics have to think and write incredibly fast, often formulating complex opinions on the basis of one viewing. I've never understood how they can do it.

Heya Katherine,

Yup, in our longstanding tradition, I agree too.  :) 

The part of Mendelsohn's line that I like best... is the idea that Ennis is made aware here of the "extent of his loss."  I think this is true on many, many levels.  But I hope against hope that not only did he know how much Jack loved him all along... but that he understood how much he loved Jack in return all along.

For me the focus of the film isn't about worrying too much about whether or not our boys loved each other (to me that's pretty clear)... I worry, and I think we're supposed to worry about the pressures their relationship faced and about how they chose to/ could find the courage to "honor" that love.

Anyway, yes, I think the discussions here and some from imdb far surpass some of even the best and most thoughtful reviews.  Can you imagine what would happen if BetteMost Brokies got together and wrote a book or something?  It would be one heck of an anthology of reviews, reflections, etc. about this film.  Hmmm....  (to quote Ennis).
 :)
 
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Offline welliwont

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Re: what possessed Jack to take that shirt in the first place?
« Reply #62 on: June 07, 2006, 12:00:38 am »
Quote from: Mendelsohn’s review:
  …Made aware too late of how greatly he was loved, of the extent of his loss,

I think one of the things that Mendelsohn gets wrong is the idea that Ennis only now understands that Jack loved him.  It's a beautiful sentence though.  I'm quite sure that Ennis knew this all along... I think it was only a matter of articulating the situation clearly.  This visual symbol was enough to wake Ennis up to the reality of their whole 20 year long relationship.  And, I'm sure the shirts really did make Ennis aware of the extent of his loss.

I totally agree.  Frankly, I've never liked that line, beautifully written or not. I think the shirts cause Ennis to see their relationship in a new way (he realizes he should should have made it his first priority) ....  But I've never thought that Ennis didn't understand the depth of Jack's love.

Hello Amanda and Katherine:

You do not know me, but I surely do know you both from reading your many posts here!  I have been deep into the study of BBM since the first time I saw it in the cinema, which was only on April 13th.  Even after all this time I am still going around the coffee pot looking for the handle.  I want to pin down every single nuance of this masterpiece, at which time I will write the book Amanda is callling for.  I only hope I am worthy of this honour! ;D

Anyhoo, here is what I want to say/ask: 
On the subject of "When did Ennis realize that Jack loved him?"  Was it when he found the shirts together in the closet, or did he know this all along?  Now cast your minds back to.... in the movie, the scene before TNIT, Jack says "Tell you what, truth is........  sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."  And Ennis looks at Jack with an (undecipherable-to-me look) and says _________ NOTHING!!!  (Damn you, Ennis!!)

Now if Ennis DID know all along how much Jack loved him, how do you interpret Ennis' expression and lack of reply to Jack's heartwrenching statement?  How could he just sit there and not even say a word?!  To me that's just cold!!  (I know that in the 2003 screenplay they had Ennis replying "I know the feeling"  but they dropped that line.  I had a post about that topic a few weeks ago, here is the link http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1164.msg25418#msg25418, in fact, you replied to me then Katherine!)

Other posters have explained Ennis' lack of response as:  Ennis is thinking to himself, "Oh damn, just wait 'till you hear the bad news about August".  IMO that is Ennis being very oblivious and superficial.  That Ennis really was that blind to Jack's love, did not realize that it was love, or did not realize how much Jack loved him.  This interpretation of that scene fits with Mendelsohn's statement.

just a question... ;)

Perhaps one of the reasons I haven't finished my coffee yet is bcz of the subtle and not-so-subtle differences between the movie and the story (and the screenplay).  Maybe I will never be able to reconcile all the enigmas!
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: what possessed Jack to take that shirt in the first place?
« Reply #63 on: June 07, 2006, 12:29:20 pm »
Hi JakeTwist, nice to meet you. I looked up the post you mentioned, and I see that I answered it, only I addressed my answer to J. Did you used to be J, or did I make a mistake? If so, I apologize. Either way, glad you're here. Your post is interesting.

I think the "sometimes I wish you so much" scene may be an example of those permanently unreconciled enigmas you mention, where you just have to interpret it the way that makes most sense to you, or the way you'd most like to think of it.

I am happy to make excuses for Ennis in almost every one of his nonresponsive scenes, because they're usually accompanied by expressive nonverbal language. But this one really does bother me. I would love it if he'd said "I know what you mean" -- it wouldn't be so demonstrative as to be out of character, but it wouldn't have left Jack's big statement just hanging there unrequited.

However, I do tend to lean toward the "he feels guilty about what he has to say tomorrow" interpretation. For one thing, he clearly does feel guilty about it -- he is all nervous when he brings it up, and he waits til the last possible second to do so.

Also, I can't imagine what else he'd be thinking except that he does know what Jack means. Not "Really? That's funny, cause I sure don't miss you." No. He missed Jack like crazy during their four years apart. Sixteen years later, he has trained himself to stand it ... except that the very next morning, he confesses that he  can't stand it no more. And there's another enigmatic line in itself. But I think that in view of the fact that "If you can't fix it, you've gotta stand it" is such a significant theme in the movie (and, for that matter, the story), it makes sense to pay attention when the word comes up.

So I guess, stretching as hard as I can to defend Ennis, the "stand it" part may be another part of the reason he remains silent. He's thinking, "Uh-oh, Jack can hardly stand it, but he's got to -- I have to skip August and I can't fix that." So he turns away, looking troubled.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2006, 12:57:36 am by latjoreme »

Offline starboardlight

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Re: what possessed Jack to take that shirt in the first place?
« Reply #64 on: June 07, 2006, 01:02:05 pm »
For me, Ennis's lack of response in that scene seems right. There's a difference between knowing that you're loved and being able to express the love back. Ennis still struggles with the latter, even though he understands how Jack feels about him. The look he gives Jack shows that he takes Jack's words seriously. There are times when you get overwhelmed with an emotion, and you just get paralyzed with not knowing what to say or how to react. (Dam! I'm still such an Ennis) For me, the scene doesn't contradict the interpretation that Ennis knows that Jack loves him.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2006, 01:05:11 pm by starboardlight »
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Offline Mikaela

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Re: what possessed Jack to take that shirt in the first place?
« Reply #65 on: June 07, 2006, 01:22:48 pm »
I don't think I've got much to add to what Katherine and Stardboardlight have said in the previous posts concerning the "Sometimes I miss you so bad" line. Ennis knows how Jack feels, though jack saying it out loud like that is heartbreaking.  :'( I am absolutely certain that Ennis surely feels the same - but as always when emotions are running strong and close to the surface, Ennis turns into his infuriatingly introvert, silent self. His emotions are so strong, he responds by default - going as blank as possible on the surface. Also, he *has* to be thinking with dread about the disappointment he'll have to give Jack the next day..... not only having to say that he's cancelling August - but also what that cancellation will mean in terms of loss and longing for the both of them. If he admits out loud that he feels the same, how will he *ever* manage to cancel August the very next day?

But......is it only me imagining seeing the glint of wetness in Ennis's eyes there?

However that is, we know that Ennis always expresses his feelings through actions where he can't find the words. I therefore find it comforting that the next scene we get is the two of them asleep in the tent, Ennis's arm holding Jack close. I imagine Ennis has found a way to respond to Jack to show what he feels, since he can't find the words.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2006, 01:28:00 pm by Mikaela »

Offline serious crayons

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Re: what possessed Jack to take that shirt in the first place?
« Reply #66 on: June 07, 2006, 01:28:27 pm »
However that is, we know that Ennis always expresses his feelings through actions where he can't find the words. I therefore find it comforting that the next scene we get is the two of them asleep in the tent, Ennis's arm holding Jack close. I imagine Ennis has found a way to respond to Jack to show what he feels, since he can't find the words.

Well said, Mikaela, both about Ennis' tendency to shut down when he gets emotional, and the thought above. I've always found that scene extremely comforting. Much more so, in fact, than the dozy embrace, which always makes me really sad.

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: what possessed Jack to take that shirt in the first place?
« Reply #67 on: June 07, 2006, 01:33:29 pm »
Ennis's "I can't stand this anymore" (the next day) mirrors Jack's "I hardly can stand it". Though it is evolved by the argument, it can be seen as an direct answer. And Ennis even tops Jack's statement.

I have the feeling Ennis did in fact respond to Jack's avowal, but it's not shown to us. The scene is cut at this point (if memory servres), and next we see is both of them sleeping in the tent, Ennis cuddled around Jack. There must have been some loving interaction before (and I hope and think, love-making too). As so often, we don't see what happens in between. We have to fill in the blanks ourselves. And I believe Ang Lee let out Ennis reaction (from the story) consiously for that purpose: not spoon-feeding the audience.


Straboarlight's comment is a good one, too:
Quote
There are times when you get overwhelmed with an emotion, and you just get paralyzed with not knowing what to say or how to react.

Being not much of an Ennis myself, I wouldn't have thought of this. But it makes sense.


Offline silkncense

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Re: what possessed Jack to take that shirt in the first place?
« Reply #68 on: June 07, 2006, 09:56:49 pm »
Mikaela -

My thoughts exactly & perfectly stated.
"……when I think of him, I just can't keep from crying…because he was a friend of mine…"

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: what possessed Jack to take that shirt in the first place?
« Reply #69 on: June 08, 2006, 12:01:08 am »
Wow, this is a really good discussion... I think you've all made great points.  I agree with both of you, Penthesilea and starboardlight, about Ennis and non-verbal communication and/ or Ennis's continued feeling of being somewhat paralyzed when it comes to direct (and mostly verbal) expressions of affection.  Mikaela, I've always seen a twinkle in Ennis's eye during this conversation.  It starts out as a happy twinkle (laughing a bit at the earlier conversation and sort of enjoying gazing at Jack a bit) and ends in a much more melancholy way... maybe the twinkle does turn to an almost-tear.  Ennis certainly seems to tear-up easily in many scenes.  I'm sure he's a bit blown away by Jack's statement.  Yes, I think he feels guilt and worry about having to break his news the next day, but I also think it must feel really amazing to him to hear that much devotion explicitly stated.  I think the camera does cut away before we see him fully absorb Jack's statement.  And, yup, I think his main response must be physical in the tent (although it's an ominous tent encounter since there's no moon).

And, more on JakeTwist's question (welcome by the way!)... I think Ennis doesn't "have the language" to articulate what he feels about Jack, but I think the emotion of love is really there for him (probably at least from the 2nd tent scene on).  I don't really believe Ennis thinks that Jack is just a "friend with benefits" for 20 years.  No, Ennis believes that he's structured his life so that he can facilitate the sporadic meetings with Jack.  20 years is just too long a time to be in complete denial about such a powerful situation.  I think also that by the second to last camping trip when Ennis asks Jack if he thinks people "know" and wonders if Jack's relationship with Lureen is "normal" he's already given up on the idea that he's not "queer."  These questions are almost outright admissions that he feels and knows what his situation is.

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