Author Topic: a girl with an opinon  (Read 8926 times)

iluvchocolate

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a girl with an opinon
« on: March 29, 2006, 10:07:53 pm »
Hi there I'm new to the forum and a fan of Broke back mountain. I have gotten on the topic of the movie with someone I am close with.  And I want your opinion on this.

I really don't care about the fact the movie is about two men.  That really wasn't what the movie was about for me.  It was about cheating.   Bottom line they cheated on their wifes.. It doesn't make it right just because it was two men back in the 1960's.  Cheating was frowned upon then just as much if not more. I would be saying the same thing if they were in a same sex marriage.  Just because their two people of the same sex doesn't make this right. 

I am a married, hetersexual woman, with two young girls.  And have had gay men for friends and wish I was still close with them and also have been friends with someone who had a sex change.  So I find the movie about two people beening in love. It's just the fact that their cheating I can't get past.  When I try to explain my side I have been told I'm wrong.

 Don't get me wrong I love the movie!!  I just think people have this movie all wrong.

AM I WRONG???   Whats your opinion on this people????

Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: a girl with an opinon
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2006, 01:09:39 am »
I really don't care about the fact the movie is about two men.  That really wasn't what the movie was about for me.  It was about cheating.   Bottom line they cheated on their wifes.. It doesn't make it right just because it was two men back in the 1960's.  Cheating was frowned upon then just as much if not more. I would be saying the same thing if they were in a same sex marriage.  Just because their two people of the same sex doesn't make this right.

I understand your position on this.  That's why BBM was such a tragedy for everyone.  Jack and Ennis got married because that is what was expected of them.  But then their true feelings for one another sort of took them away.  There's a part of me that says they should have never gotten married in the first place once they had an affair, but they also seemed to believe that "this is a one shot deal" and perhaps supposed they would never get back into it after that summer was over.

I also think BBM deals with reality in a more adult manner than a lot of movies that seem to have cookie cutter pat answers to every situation.  You know the kind of movies where everything ends up sweetness and light and happy and then the credits roll and people drift out of the theatre.  Unfortunately, BBM is not escapist movie fare by any means.  For a lot of us, it rips emotions right open and leaves us with tremendous angst.

I don't think anyone of us thinks that Alma and Lureen weren't as much victims of the circumstances and Jack and Ennis were.  Thankfully, at least both fathers seemed to maintain a commitment and connection to their kids and Ennis paid child support/alimony.

Was it wrong that Jack and Ennis cheated?  Using a strict moral test, of course it was wrong.  But then considering the state of cheating and affairs and broken marriages in general in this country, a large percentage of the population can't afford to throw moral judgments because many of us have fallen short ourselves in one way or another.

The fact they cheated should bother us.  But so should the fact they could not fulfill a dream of a life together because of the oppression rural Wyoming life offered to those different from the norm.  If they truly loved one another, they should have been together because of that, not held back out of fear of being killed by angry intolerant neighbors.

So perhaps the question here is not whether you can get past the fact they cheated, but rather looking at the whole picture of injustice done to every character in the movie.  Annie Proulx made it clear that how we finish the story, as well as interpret it, is going to be colored by our own experiences and who we are as individuals.  That you are a married mom with kids that you love very much is going to color your experiences and interpretations because you would never want a similar thing to happen to you or your kids, and that is totally understandable.

Coming at this film as a gay guy, I have some different experiences and interpretations.  I've been in a committed relationship with a guy for almost 20 years myself.  I can't imagine myself tolerating an endless parade of excuses from Ennis about why we couldn't be together, and I'd probably have given up on him long before 20 years had run its course.  I also couldn't imagine contemplating a life with someone other than my partner at this point.  But I'm not Jack or Ennis or Lureen or Alma, so I can't say I can find myself in any of their shoes and say how I would react or deal with the things they've all done.

Real life is messy.  All we can do is try to treat each other with honesty and respect, and try to learn the lesson that we should live our lives as who we are, not what others expect us to be.

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Offline Rayn

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Re: a girl with an opinon
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2006, 04:07:47 am »
"Real life is messy.  All we can do is try to treat each other with honesty and respect, and try to learn the lesson that we should live our lives as who we are, not what others expect us to be."   

Phillip


Amen to that, Phillip!

Life's messy and people are imperfect.  They don't always fit into the social roles and models imposed upon them by society i.e. that family, friends, employers, pastors, priests, politicians or governments want them to fit into and cheating on one's partner, by any moral measure, isn't nearly as dreadful and painfully destructive as someone being beaten and murdered because he doesn't meet the social expectations of others.  I think of poor Earl and maybe even Jack! 

BBM is a true reflection of life as it was and still is in some parts of the nation which is why it resonates so long after the credits roll up and are gone.  Think of Matthew Shephard.  His murder wasn't so long ago, right?  Well, what can we do about it?

We need to change the way we live and the laws we live under so that people are happier with their partners (so all people have the freedom to marry) and don't cheat. We need to decrease the amount of fear and violence in our society and the world. 

And how can we do that?  By teaching and increasing tolerance and acceptance of people who are different from us so that they aren't belittled, harassed, attacked, beaten up, tortured and murdered because "someone thinks" they are wrong! 

Damn, don't get me goin' or I'll be on a soapbox soon... but I do mean every word of it.


Peace,
Rayn


« Last Edit: March 31, 2006, 07:47:07 am by Rayn »

Offline bbm_stitchbuffyfan

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Re: a girl with an opinon
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2006, 10:40:40 pm »
If they truly loved one another, they should have been together because of that, not held back out of fear of being killed by angry intolerant neighbors.

Your response took the words right out of my mouth, Phillip, and you articulated yourself very well in that post. But I'd like to say that I think they "truly loved one another." I really do. The only time you ever see them content and honestly happy is when they are with each other. And I'm not saying that you're indicating that they aren't in love either; I'm just saying, if anyone reads that sentence and gets that impression (admittedly, that was my first impression but then I came to a new conclusion), that there was a very deep (and beautiful, I must add  :)) love between them. What I did get out of your statement was that, because they loved each other, they should have been allowed to be together and not have to worry about any impending gay-bashings.

All in all, great response.

I agree that it's greatly unfortunate that Alma and Lureen had to endure such pain from the boys' secret affair but I just cannot find it in myself to blame Ennis and Jack. I care too much about them, and feel too much sympathy for them, to point fingers at them for what they did. These men were so in love with each other and so lost and (deep-down) depressive without each other, that even if they didn't cheat on their wives, their marriages still probably would have failed. (I realize Lureen and Jack's marriage didn't come to an end in this film but we are informed that their marriage is progressing awfully.)

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Offline RouxB

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Re: a girl with an opinon
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2006, 04:50:47 pm »
"Don't get me wrong I love the movie!!  I just think people have this movie all wrong.
AM I WRONG???   Whats your opinion on this people?"

Well, I can't say you are wrong as to your reaction. I would suggest you are wront in saying that "people have this movie all wrong". I don't think most people, at least in this group-going out on a limb and speaking for others based on their posting histories-think the adultery was a great thing-I think they see it as a product of the environment in which the story takes place. Ennis and Jack are not heroes-they are just people living miserable lives because of who they love. In this I think the movie is all "right"-it shows the destruction that results when people are caged.

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Offline starboardlight

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Re: a girl with an opinon
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2006, 02:16:29 am »
you're right. I don't think anyone here condones cheating. For me it's not about getting past the cheating but rather seeing deeper into it. If you only look at people's action and condemn them for it, you're only seeing a detail and missing the big picture. Often times, people hurt others because they themselves are in pain. Look deeper behind the actions, and you'll see that they are just as human as anyone else. All the characters are in so much pain for most of their lives, and you want so much for them to find happiness. Alma was able to extricate herself out of that painful situation. Ennis and Jack however have no where to go. Society at that time just didn't have a place for them. These men are not saints. They're just normal men. I put myself in their shoes, and I honestly can't say that I'd live any differently.

I think the film is brilliant in it's unflinching look at both the good and the bad, the ambiguous and the contradictory in the story. The contradiction have made me  more compassionate, especially to those who seem to least deserve it, because there's a lot of pain in people lives. In understanding people's pain, you can then begin to understand how to help them heal. When you can do that, only then you can you begin to break the cycle of cheating and hurting.

You have to ask yourself, if you're going to condemn the men for cheating, what can you do to make sure that men like these don't cheat? Will you simply stand in judgement? or will you try to help them feel free to be who they really are?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2006, 02:29:50 am by starboardlight »
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Offline starboardlight

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Re: a girl with an opinon
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2006, 02:24:58 am »
I agree that it's greatly unfortunate that Alma and Lureen had to endure such pain from the boys' secret affair but I just cannot find it in myself to blame Ennis and Jack. I care too much about them, and feel too much sympathy for them, to point fingers at them for what they did. These men were so in love with each other and so lost and (deep-down) depressive without each other, that even if they didn't cheat on their wives, their marriages still probably would have failed. (I realize Lureen and Jack's marriage didn't come to an end in this film but we are informed that their marriage is progressing awfully.)

i think this is a good point. whether they cheated or not, the men just didn't have the capacity to connect emotionally with their wives. that ultimately is where the hurt came from. they should never have been married in the first place. I tend to want to blame society for this. Some might argue, but for young men and women, there was and still is tremendous pressure to get married. From family member constantly asking "when are you going to marry?" to rumors flying about if you're not married by a certain age. For men like Ennis and Jack, in their time, rumors can be a death sentence. 
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: a girl with an opinon
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2006, 05:44:55 pm »
We miss you, iluvchocolate! Get your scrawny A back to BetterMost!!
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squashcourt

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Re: a girl with an opinon
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2007, 10:49:48 pm »
Hi everyone,

I'm just shaking my head here from left to right - somehow, I just cringe with annoyance when I hear the expression "cheating" in the situation between Jack and Ennis.

You can cheat in cards (in poker it's called bluffing); you can cheat your employer; you can cheat in golf; you can cheat in a marathon race - I can go on and on, but don't refer to Jack's and Ennis's passion for each other as cheating on someone else.  You can comment, you can even make a remark, but don't make a judgement!

Affectionately,

Pierre -  >:(


Offline Ellemeno

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Re: a girl with an opinon
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2007, 03:39:07 am »
What is this film about?

Two people who fall in love with each other?s souls, irrespective of gender?

Gay or bisexual men compelled by society and their own minds to pretend to live straight lives?

Undereducated ?dummies? who are belittled by former employers or teased by prospective girlfriends, or made to feel unworthy at dinner parties?

Wounded wives, scorned girlfriends, neglected children? Life in lonesome places, where a big treat is driving to town once a week for ice cream?

Foremen who demand that their workers show up on Christmas, in a blizzard? Bosses who hire and lose the same employee two or three times a year?

Mothers who cherish their sons despite horrid fathers? Siblings who drift so far apart in adulthood that they live in three different towns?

Devoting 20 years of your life to an unsatisfactory situation? Fear of losing the one you love because you demand or hold back too much?

Wow.  Barbara, you are a treasure.