Author Topic: What if Jack gave Ennis an ultimatum? Come with me to Mexico or it,s over.  (Read 16766 times)

tiawahcowboy

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In 1983, in the states west of the Mississippi River and the Rocky Mountain states, for the majority of residents there, "society's attitude" toward homosexuals had changed very little if not at all, except in the larger cities in those states. "Sodomy" was still illegal in those states in 1983.

Offline Penthesilea

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I think this too (& btw, I've never read it written out so well summarised before). Can't decide if it makes the story more or less tragic.  More tragic because a happier ending could have ensued if only Ennis hadn't taken so long to come around or less tragic because at least he knew he was going to make a change. 

Maybe both so it cancels out and the ending is just Tragic with a captial T, period !

Thanks for the compliment. I'm  sometimes not sure whether I'm able to get my point across (English is a foreign language for me).
I always thought it makes the story all the more tragic. Front-Ranger put it in really beautiful words on another thread:
Quote
What makes the end of the movie so tragic for me is that Ennis was almost there, he had almost traveled all the way around the coffeepot to find the handle, the answer. And he was almost ready to agree to a life with Jack

It was in this thread where we discussed the topic, the "what if Jack hadn't died"

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1259.0

Anyway, I agree about Tragic with a capital T. Never seen a sadder movie in my life.

Offline nic

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It was in this thread where we discussed the topic, the "what if Jack hadn't died"

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1259.0

Thanks - off to check it out (as if I haven't already read a library's worth of BBM discussion!)
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Offline opinionista

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For me, it always leeds to November. To the question: what if Jack hadn't died?
There are signs that Ennis started to change. We've discussed them many times. Ennis broke up with Cassie, Ennis was the one who admitted that he couldn't stand it anymore. So at least this was clear to himself and to Jack. He must have had many thoughts about their relationship after their last time together. Look at him in the diner/busstation scene.

Plus, the times and circumstances had changed or were about to change: it wasn't the sixties anymore, but the eighties. Society had changed in it's attitude towards homosexuality. I don't want to say it was all fine, far from that (it's probably far from that today). But at least it was a topic and less of a total taboo. I guess in the 60ies it wasn't even a subject matter of discussions.
And Ennis's girls were nearly adult. The time he had to pay no more child support was foreseeable. That would have given him more choices regarding work. The girls finally grown up and making their owns lives would have given him more freedom. He would not have to "stuck with what he's got" any longer. He would have been responsible only for himself.

I can see development potentialities in Ennis. So in November some things probably would have changed. With or without an ultimatum from Jack.


Maybe Ennis was showing a few sign of change but I think it was already too late even if Jack hadn't died. I think it came to a point where Jack had lost all hope and was conviced that Ennis didn't love him anymore or at least not as much as he thought he did. "You used to come easy, now is like seeing the Pope", Jack said.

I'm not sure if I'm getting my point across. What I'm trying to say is that sometimes when you are in a relationship where you are constantly rejected and where the object of your affection is seldom emotionally available for you, it comes to a point where you stop trusting that person. You begin to have doubts and wonder if he or she still loves you. You are so hurt already that even if that other person has a change of heart and tells you that he/she indeed loves you, you find it hard to believe it.

If Jack hadn't died and Ennis had a change of heart after that confrontation at the Lakeside, Ennis would have need to work hard to convice Jack that he's changed. In fact, both of them would have to work very hard to make the relationship work because they had years and years of pain, things unsaid and unresolved, piled up in their hearts. You can't simply erase 20 years of pain and resentment, and start all over again pretending nothing happened. Things always come up, and sometimes with serious consequences for the relationship and the ones in it.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2006, 04:32:42 pm by opinionista »
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline ednbarby

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I'm not sure if I'm getting my point across. What I'm trying to say is that sometimes when you are in a relationship where you are constantly rejected and where the object of your affection is seldom emotionally available for you, it comes to a point where you stop trusting that person. You begin to have doubts and wonder if he or she still loves you. You are so hurt already that even if that other person has a change of heart and tells you that he/she indeed loves you, you find it hard to believe it.

I know from this.  This is the reason that after two years of punishment, I finally moved on from the love of my life to the point where, when I'd been seeing my now husband for a couple of months and he came practically crawling back to me, practically begging me to give him another chance, as hard as nails as it was, I was able to say, "No."

I had much less to go on than Jack did, though.  Well, wait a minute - yes and no.  I was about to say that this guy never once told me he loved me, then I remembered...  I was about to say that this guy never once made any future, long-term plans of any kind that included me, then I remembered...  And this guy only allowed himself to be truly intimate and affectionate with me on very rare occasions - so rare, I can count them on one hand.  But then, I was a woman and he was a man and I had much more opportunity to find another man I could love *openly* and with whom I could be accepted by society as a couple.  There's the difference.

I agree.  Jack had given up.  That's what that last look with those empty eyes and hardened jaw is all about.  Doesn't mean he'd ever have stopped loving Ennis.  And I'm sure if he hadn't died and had taken up with Randall at his parents' ranch and Ennis got wind of it and tried to talk him/beat him out of it, he'd have one hell of a fight on his hands.  Jack was a broken man at the end - that's almost as heartbreaking as his literal death.  Like Jake said, he died the moment he knew he couldn't be with Ennis like he wanted.  I know from that, too.  To a much lesser extent.  It occurs to me just now that maybe that's why Jack appeals to me  more than Ennis.  I feel his pain more because I've felt it before.
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Offline opinionista

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I know from this.  This is the reason that after two years of punishment, I finally moved on from the love of my life to the point where, when I'd been seeing my now husband for a couple of months and he came practically crawling back to me, practically begging me to give him another chance, as hard as nails as it was, I was able to say, "No."

I had much less to go on than Jack did, though.  Well, wait a minute - yes and no.  I was about to say that this guy never once told me he loved me, then I remembered...  I was about to say that this guy never once made any future, long-term plans of any kind that included me, then I remembered...  And this guy only allowed himself to be truly intimate and affectionate with me on very rare occasions - so rare, I can count them on one hand.  But then, I was a woman and he was a man and I had much more opportunity to find another man I could love *openly* and with whom I could be accepted by society as a couple.  There's the difference.

I agree.  Jack had given up.  That's what that last look with those empty eyes and hardened jaw is all about.  Doesn't mean he'd ever have stopped loving Ennis.  And I'm sure if he hadn't died and had taken up with Randall at his parents' ranch and Ennis got wind of it and tried to talk him/beat him out of it, he'd have one hell of a fight on his hands.  Jack was a broken man at the end - that's almost as heartbreaking as his literal death.  Like Jake said, he died the moment he knew he couldn't be with Ennis like he wanted.  I know from that, too.  To a much lesser extent.  It occurs to me just now that maybe that's why Jack appeals to me  more than Ennis.  I feel his pain more because I've felt it before.

I've gone through this too which is why, contrary to what some people think, in my opinion Jack and Ennis's relationship was doomed since the day Jack went to see him after the divorce and Ennis rejected him. Even if he hadn't died, and Ennis has changed his mind, I don't think they would've survived a as couple. I know a lot of people disagree with me, but from a reality point of view, I seriously doubt their relationship had any future from that moment on, no matter how much they loved each other. They'd need extensive professional therapy for it to work. Twenty years of struggle and pain is too much for a person to handle, I think. You end up feeling kind of numb.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2006, 04:27:04 pm by opinionista »
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline nic

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I've gone through this too ....

I've experienced it too, but didn't ever connect it before in any way with BBM, being too consumed with thinking myself as an Ennis type.  Wow - that's given me another angle to contemplate, something from Jack's POV.  Thanks guys, but hugs all round for having experienced the negative stuff.  You know what I mean  :)
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tiawahcowboy

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Oh, I would say that Jack and Ennis's relationship was doomed since the day Jack went to see him in Riverton in 1967.

If I had been Jack Twist and Ennis Del Mar told me that there was no way that we could have a relationship when in the Riverton motel in 1967, I would have told Ennis that I would not be seeing him again and tell him "See ya!"

Oh, I might have asked Ennis why (according to the book) he said, "Alma? It ain't her fault," What ain't Alma's fault? The fact that you thought you had to marry her to prove you are a man? Does that mean you weren't in love with her to begin with?"
« Last Edit: May 31, 2006, 05:22:34 pm by tiawahcowboy »

Offline opinionista

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Oh, I would say that Jack and Ennis's relationship was doomed since the day Jack went to see him in Riverton in 1967.

If I had been Jack Twist and Ennis Del Mar told me that there was no way that we could have a relationship when in the Riverton motel in 1967, I would have told Ennis that I would not be seeing him again and tell him "See ya!"

Oh, I might have asked Ennis why (according to the book) he said, "Alma? It ain't her fault," What ain't Alma's fault? The fact that you thought you had to marry her to prove you are a man? Does that mean you weren't in love with her to begin with?"

But this is assuming you weren't married. Jack was married too, so he was in no position to actually judge Ennis at that point of their relationship, was he? Then why did he marry Lureen? Just for her money? That could also be questionable. I think Jack had sexuality issues too, not as bad as Ennis but he did to a certain degree, I guess. He was human, after all. Although in the short story Proulx implies that Jack was having sex with other men or at least trying too when he was rodeoing in Texas.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

tiawahcowboy

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But this is assuming you weren't married. Jack was married too, so he was in no position to actually judge Ennis at that point of their relationship, was he? Then why did he marry Lureen? Just for her money? That could also be questionable. I think Jack had sexuality issues too, not as bad as Ennis but he did to a certain degree, I guess. He was human, after all. Although in the short story Proulx implies that Jack was having sex with other men or at least trying too when he was rodeoing in Texas.

Oh, I think that Jack got married to Story Lureen "What's-her-name?" in hopes that he could get her father (no name either) and his farm equipment company to sponsor him as a rodeo bull rider. Story Jack really has nothing good to say about Lureen when he is alone with Ennis.

If you read the short story, you will see how Jack talked about his father-in-law.

Quote
"I was in Texas rodeoin. How I met Lureen. Look over on that chair."
     . . .
   "I made three fuckin thousand dollars that year. Fuckin starved. Had to borrow everthing but a toothbrush from other guys. Drove grooves across Texas. Half the time under that cunt truck fixin it. Anyway, I didn't never think about losin. Lureen? There's some serious money there. Her old man's got it. Got this farm machinery business. Course he don't let her have none a the money, and he hates my fuckin guts, so it's a hard go now but one a these days -- "

"Listen. I'm thinkin, tell you what, if you and me had a little ranch together, little cow and calf operation, your horses, it'd be some sweet life. Like I said, I'm gettin out a rodeo. I ain't no broke-dick rider but I don't got the bucks a ride out this slump I'm in and I don't got the bones a keep gettin wrecked. I got it figured, got this plan, Ennis, how we can do it, you and me. Lureen's old man, you bet he'd give me a bunch if I'd get lost. Already more or less said it -- "


See why I said what I did about Jack? Annie Proux's Jack Twist NEVER worked for his father-in-law.