Mexico

[Sandy]

Hi everyone, it’s been a long time!  I decided to take a brief hiatus, especially after January’s events and I’m here to join in again!  Hope everyone is well. 

During their final scene together, I’ve often wondered about the “you been to Mexico, Jack Twist?” question from Ennis.  I think it’s really interesting that Ennis firstly wants to know if Jack has been.  It certainly seems to be the case that the only travelling each of them does is with each other (although I know that Ennis only travels around the coffee pot!).  Lureen is a shrewd businesswoman, I wonder if they travel together.

I’m also intrigued that Ennis refers to him as “Jack Twist”.  The usage in the movie seems to be a sort of nickname, said in fun (noting of course that Ennis introduces himself as “Ennis” at first).  In this scene however it’s used differently-accusingly, sternly, like a teacher giving a child into trouble.   

What is particularly interesting for me however is the “I hear what they got in Mexico” and “boys like you”.  Phew! 

How does he hear and from whom?  I don’t imagine it would make the newspapers!  More importantly, how does he react when he hears what they got there?  Does he listen quietly (as he normally does) or does he just get up and leave? I can’t imagine him sitting there listening to crude chatter about it, so I wonder how he “came to know” about Mexico. 

And “boys like you”?  We’ve had so many discussions about whether or not Jack, Ennis or both are gay.  Does Ennis consider Jack to be gay and what does this lead him on to think of himself?  He doesn’t use “boys like us”.  This just reinforces my position that Ennis just doesn’t think about him and Jack as a relationship other than buddiesl.  He lives in the moment of them together physically, the rest of his life goes by in a state of denial, only realising and understanding (them AND himself) when Jack dies.  So sad. 

 

[brokeplex]

And “boys like you”?  We’ve had so many discussions about whether or not Jack, Ennis or both are gay.  Does Ennis consider Jack to be gay and what does this lead him on to think of himself?  He doesn’t use “boys like us”.  This just reinforces my position that Ennis just doesn’t think about him and Jack as a relationship other than buddiesl.  He lives in the moment of them together physically, the rest of his life goes by in a state of denial, only realising and understanding (them AND himself) when Jack dies.  So sad. 

that is a good point. I think that Ennis was in such deep denial that at the time of the 1983 camping trip he considered Jack as the "gay" one and himself as being led into that "situation" by Jack. Ennis considered that Jack made him the way he was, instead of realizing that his feelings were his own, independent of Jack. Sadly, it took Jack's death and the realization while talking with OMT that Jack was going to leave him for another man before Ennis realized that his feelings for Jack were his own and that he loved Jack.

The "Mexico" references in both the film and the ss, and the actual scenes themselves in the film are metaphors for being able to access forbidden "fruit" outside Jack's usual cultural context in Childress and in WY. Mexico for generations has offered young men (mostly straight but also gay or curious) an easy outlet for sexual experimentation across the border in "Boys Town". Each border city across from all of the border states have "Boys Towns" which are red light districts where prostitution is not hassled by the authorities. The various "Boys Towns" are like worlds unto themselves with only tangential relationships with the federal or state authorities in Mexico. The federales have long been recipients of bribes inducing them to leave the "boys town" districts alone. Jack wandered over to the "boys town" area in Juarez opposite El Paso. (which brings up what I felt is an error in the film, in the background as Jack is crossing into Jotito alley we see ordinary turista families wandering around. In the real "boys town" you would only see drunk American college students, prostitutes, and Mexican toughs guarding the area)

[Brown Eyes]

Heya,

This is a good question.  How Ennis knew about the reputation of certain Mexican towns is definitely a bit of a mystery.  Some of the best explanations that I've heard suggest that he may have heard about it through ranch hands (maybe even in the context of homophobic jokes, etc.).

I think brokeplex is right that even 20 years into the relationship, Ennis is dealing with a lot of denial.  Although, there are moments when he seems to have a deeper level of self-awareness (maybe even despite himself).  In the earlier camping trip when he's talking about people looking at him "suspicious like they know", etc.  It seems to me he's saying "they know" about him being gay.  He doesn't say the word explicitly, so there's still a shield of denial in leaving his sentences ambiguous.  But, at least it seems like a step towards some self-awareness.

In saying "boys like you"... I think Ennis is being deliberately mean in the context of the heat of the argument.

And, it's definitely true that a ton changes for Ennis in terms of awareness after Jack's death.  But, I don't think that Jack was ever really going to leave Ennis.  I truly don't think he had the will power to resist Ennis (even if there was another fellow in the picture... which we know there was in the form of Randall for 5 years).

[brokeplex]

And, it's definitely true that a ton changes for Ennis in terms of awareness after Jack's death.  But, I don't think that Jack was ever really going to leave Ennis.  I truly don't think he had the will power to resist Ennis (even if there was another fellow in the picture... which we know there was in the form of Randall for 5 years).

just one of those interpretive disagreements that we all have from time to time about the film and the ss. 

other than the drowsy flashback showing the intense love in Jack's face in 1963 and its contrast to the picture of him obviously in pain and regret watching Ennis drive off in 1983, the confirmation that Jack would have left Ennis was the reference that OMT made of "Jack's ranch neighbor?" coming up to help Jack and OMT run the ranch. It is far fetched to me that Jack would mention the ranch neighbor unless he really had plans to move up there with him. 

I think some of us want the relationship between the men to work out so they don't want Jack to leave Ennis, and others like me feel that the relationship was impossible and want Jack to leave Ennis so he can have a chance at happiness. I guess ultimately its all interpretive anyway. 

[Sandy]

I think it would have been jokes around the ranch hands too, but I wonder what his reaction would be.  As I’ve said, I think he was in denial and I wonder if he simply sat there knowing he “ain’t queer” or if there was a part of him, deep rooted that thought, “ they’re talking about me [or Jack]”.

About the scene at the river, definitely there’s a step forward there.  By asking Jack if he thought others knew, he was acknowledging that fact that there was something to know! But his question about whether or not Jack’s relationship with Lureen was ‘normal’ shows he still thought what they had was not normal.

I agree that the relationship with Randall must have been serious enough for Jack to mention to OMT.  I do think however that Randall would always have been second, again referring to this scene, he said “needing something that I don’t hardly never get”.  Randall satisfied that need, but if Ennis had changed his mind, I honestly believe that Jack would have jumped for joy and Randall would have been forgotten about. 

I do think that a point of note at the outcome of this scene is, although Jack tells (almost) all, Ennis cries and says that he can’t stand it anymore.  At the reunion camp, when Jack asks Ennis to commit and live with him, Ennis says you have to stand it.  But here, Ennis knows that Jack is seeking comfort elsewhere and he now states he can’t stand it anymore.  He lets his guard down when he hears about Jack’s experiences elsewhere, he doesn’t storm off and leave him.   

[Brown Eyes]

just one of those interpretive disagreements that we all have from time to time about the film and the ss. 

Yep,  I think the different points of view are what keep all these Brokeback discussions so interesting and lively.
 

And, BBM is complex and ambiguous enough to allow room for lots of different interpretations.  I'm certainly aware that there are lots of folks who believe that Jack was really gearing up to leave Ennis and there are compelling arguments for that idea for sure, but I'm still in the camp of folks who see Jack as simply too attached to Ennis to really do that.  I think he really doesn't know how to leave Ennis... even if he wanted to. 

I think it would have been jokes around the ranch hands too, but I wonder what his reaction would be.  As I’ve said, I think he was in denial and I wonder if he simply sat there knowing he “ain’t queer” or if there was a part of him, deep rooted that thought, “ they’re talking about me [or Jack]”.

It's hard to know how Ennis would react, especially in a situation where he would be face to face with the people making the homophobic jokes and they would be folks he would have to see and interact with frequently at work.  The only somewhat analogous situation that we may see in the film is when he's running around packing for one of his and Jack's fishing trips, there are two DJs on a radio making what sounds to be a homophobic joke.  In that case, Ennis barely seems to even notice it... but he is preoccupied with packing.  It's a detail in the film that's easy to miss because it's hard to hear that radio very clearly.

About the scene at the river, definitely there’s a step forward there.  By asking Jack if he thought others knew, he was acknowledging that fact that there was something to know! But his question about whether or not Jack’s relationship with Lureen was ‘normal’ shows he still thought what they had was not normal.

I see what you mean about how you hear the "normal" question.  But, I actually hear that question slightly differently.  I always hear that question as being about whether Lureen and Jack have much of a sex life at all... and more specifically whether they have hetero sex in "conventional" ways... unlike how things went with Alma.  Ennis seems sort of shy when he's asking that question, so I've always felt that he may be coyly asking about actual sexual practices.


And, yes about the end of the lake arguement when Ennis collapses in Jack's arms... I think it's very significant that he says "I can't stand this anymore"... which is the inverse of Ennis's motto "if you can't fix it you've got to stand it".  One wonders that about whether within that statement it's implied that if you can't stand something you must fix it.  I hope and wonder whether this would have been enough of a breakthrough moment for Ennis to have nudged him to make improvements in his relationship with Jack had Jack lived.  We know Ennis is the one who sent the last postcard.  So, he's still hoping to connect with Jack.  Maybe one element of the BBM tragedy is that Jack dies just as Ennis reaches a point where he may be willing to do more for their relationship.

[brokeplex]

 but if Ennis had changed his mind, I honestly believe that Jack would have jumped for joy and Randall would have been forgotten about. 

that is the heart of the matter. I doubt that Ennis ever would have changed his mind while Jack was alive. Ennis was #1 for Jack, no doubt. Ennis also was a dead end for Jack, and Jack was ready to settle down with #2. A half full glass is better than an empty glass, and Ennis's glass was empty for Jack.

[brokeplex]

 I think he really doesn't know how to leave Ennis... even if he wanted to. 

"I wish I knew how to quit you." I think that after 20 years, Jack was figuring out that the clock on his life was running, he was getting no younger, and he still wanted something that perhaps was still at least partially inchoate for him, but he still wanted it - a real relationship with someone he loved.  Randall is in the film to show that Jack is looking for alternatives, Randall is not just cheap anonymous sex for Jack, he is a real alternative to Ennis.

I know for a fact that you never forget or entirely leave behind your first true romantic love. Ennis was Jack's first experience with romantic love. I understand how hard it was for Jack to leave Ennis behind, I had that experience with Chris. But, I see justification for hope that had Jack lived he could have found happiness with Randall.

But, that couldn't complete the cycle of the tragedy of Ennis's and Jack's life, so we have the AP's brilliant, effective, and heartbreaking ending instead.