Were Jack and Ennis Lucky?

[Brown Eyes]

When you think about Jack and Ennis and their relationship, do you perceive them as having been lucky... in having found one another and in the experience of great passion/ love (even if unspoken) for one another?  Even with all the flaws and tragedies that we see them experience through the course of their relationship... in the end were they lucky for the experiences they did share together?

Way back in the beginning of my Brokie experience, I recall one of my first reactions to seeing BBM in the theater was about how lucky I felt Jack and Ennis were to have had the passion for one another that we see (again, even despite all the tragedy and heartache).  I wonder how our own personal life experiences might color how we respond to this question.  For me personally, I've never experienced the kind of longstanding great romance that we see Jack and Ennis grapple with, so I'm sure this impacts how I respond to their love story.

[BelAir]

maybe in the sense of "better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all"...

somedays I understand that sentiment quite well, other days, I'm like, what a load of horse sh*t.

lucky to have known love with each other perhaps.

but no, I don't think 'lucky' is a general word I would use for them. because I can think of so many ways they could have been 'luckier.'

 

and yes, I think you are right that our own experiences with love color our perceptions...

[optom3]

I have to say, my own view is that the worst thing possible is to have loved and lost.This is of course based on my own experience. Sometimes for me the phrase, waht you've never had you never miss, seems more apt.
To love and lose, aprticularly if it is down to your own actions, is the worst feeling ever. Some of the SS is soooo  true, when it is mentoned that Ennis " is suffused with a sense of pleasurebecause Jack Twist was in his dream"
I know that feeling far too well.Sometimes I will even try t go back to sleep to see if I can recapture the dream. I am so reluctant to move an inch as I just want to hang on to the remnants of the dream for as long as possible.

So I guess I do not think Jack and Ennis were ultimately lucky.In fact I think they were bloodied beaten and just worn down by it all.That si what I think the final scene bythe lake was trying to portray.They both come across at that point as broken men.

[Brown Eyes]

I understand what you're saying about the pain of frustration, regret and loss, which we clearly see both Ennis and Jack go through in their own ways.  But, I keep coming back to the idea that... at least from my perspective, they were tremendously lucky to have had such a passionate experience together.  If they hadn't had their relationship, it seems to me that both of them might have gone through life sort of numb or living dull, mundane, passionless lives. If Jack only had Lureen and the Newsomes in his life and if Ennis only had the mundane marriage with Alma it seems to me that their lives would be much less full (maybe that's sort of an obvious observation).  And to me, I think I would chose a difficult and passionate relationship over a dull and maybe easier existence.

[pnwDUDE]

When you think about Jack and Ennis and their relationship, do you perceive them as having been lucky... in having found one another and in the experience of great passion/ love (even if unspoken) for one another?  Even with all the flaws and tragedies that we see them experience through the course of their relationship... in the end were they lucky for the experiences they did share together?

Given the era, I think they were very lucky. All the circumstances were right and they got to experience not just the man/man interaction, but falling in love. That which is missing even today.

Way back in the beginning of my Brokie experience, I recall one of my first reactions to seeing BBM in the theater was about how lucky I felt Jack and Ennis were to have had the passion for one another that we see (again, even despite all the tragedy and heartache).  I wonder how our own personal life experiences might color how we respond to this question.  For me personally, I've never experienced the kind of longstanding great romance that we see Jack and Ennis grapple with, so I'm sure this impacts how I respond to their love story.

I think many wish they had what Jack and Ennis had, even if it was "every four fuckin' years?" 
This is the common denominator ala Brokeback Mountain. What makes it different than the usual love story is the homosexual component. It also beautifully bridges that gap between homosexuality and hetrosexuality. We can and do fall in love the same way.

Brad

[Katie77]

I understand what you're saying about the pain of frustration, regret and loss, which we clearly see both Ennis and Jack go through in their own ways.  But, I keep coming back to the idea that... at least from my perspective, they were tremendously lucky to have had such a passionate experience together.  If they hadn't had their relationship, it seems to me that both of them might have gone through life sort of numb or living dull, mundane, passionless lives. If Jack only had Lureen and the Newsomes in his life and if Ennis only had the mundane marriage with Alma it seems to me that their lives would be much less full (maybe that's sort of an obvious observation).  And to me, I think I would chose a difficult and passionate relationship over a dull and maybe easier existence.

This is a question that could go round and round in circles.  When you mention here abut the "numb...or living dull, mundane, passionateless lives", it raises the question, of whether their lives would have been "passonateless" with their wives, if they had never met one another.

What it makes us realize is how easily our lives can be changed by just one encounter, and how it not only changes our own life, but like the domino effect, changes the lives of all who come in contact with us, in some way or another.

Were they lucky???......well that depends on whether the heart is answering or the head is answering the question.

[Kd5000]

It's like asking if Romeo and Juliet were lucky to have met each other don't you think. So many forces beyond their control (in the case of R&J and Ennis and Jack) preventing them from ever having a happy ending. 

In conclusion, it's lucky they met, it's unlucky what they faced in order to find true happiness.

[optom3]

I agree with a lot of what has been said. It is wonderful no matter what sex or orientation to find a true passionate, soul mate. I suspect my view is coloured by my own inertia.
So I Will be more specific, to find the love is beyond lucky it is amazing, beyond what any words can articulate.To let that love go because of societies dictates, or some deep routed fear, or just plain cowardice is to live a life that is forever partly tragic. It means you lose the ability to look forward or even live in the present.
What has gone before casts a very long shadow.You may feel you have put it all behind you, or placed it in a compartmet in your mind, never to be opened, when fate throws a curve ball and all of a sudden the past looms more clearly and more painfully than ever before.

It is impossible to insulate against this happening, because the fates dictate that it will appear in the most unexpected places.Therefore with no warning, once again you are thrown for a loop, and right back in the past and all the chaos that ensues.

Sometimes sleep and dreams provide the only relief.Of course one of the contradictions is, that the more upset your equilibrium becomes, the less likely comes the bliss of sleep.

So yes Jack and Ennis were lucky, but then like others, they were not quite lucky enough.It is like someone opening the door to a paradise of emotions and saying O.K you can have a quick look round, but I am not going to let you stay here.Think of it as a quick vacation.As with all things BBM I am now unsure whether I am talking of myself or Ennis and Jack.

For me the phrase, you can run but you cannot hide, is so apt.

[Brown Eyes]

It's like asking if Romeo and Juliet were lucky to have met each other don't you think. So many forces beyond their control (in the case of R&J and Ennis and Jack) preventing them from ever having a happy ending. 

In conclusion, it's lucky they met, it's unlucky what they faced in order to find true happiness.

Yes, I think the Romeo and Juliet comparison is very appropriate.  The tragic lovers concept is clearly as old as the hills and has lots of parallels throughout literature/ film, etc.  Somewhere on BetterMost we've talked about some really specific parallels with Romeo and Juliet... the metapor of "star-crossed lovers" with Romeo and Juliet seems to find a parallel in BBM with the fullmoon (maybe moon-crossed lovers??) and there's even a balcony scene in BBM that involves calling out the name of one's lover (a la Romeo and Juliet).   And, in both stories it's society and things beyond the lovers' control that play probably the greatest part in the tragedy that ensues. The parallel is really pretty elegant.

Anyway, yep, I don't think there is any single correct answer to this question about whether or not Jack and Ennis were lucky.  And, answers and discussions about this can go around and around in different directions I think.

Again, for me personally since I've had some important relationships in the past... but nothing that I would say approximates the passion we see between Jack and Ennis... I really do think they're lucky for having experienced that kind of intensity and passion for one another.

With regard to their marriages... I do think both of those marriages would have been passionless in any scenario.  One was a marriage of convenience and one seems to have happened because it was "the thing to do" or the thing that was expected.  I do believe getting married to women was against both Jack and Ennis's nature and against their personal desires outside of societal pressures.  This topic (of whether their respective marriages would have been happy if J&E had never met) could probably be its own thread.