Importance of the Jimbo Scene

[louisev]

In my three-plus years as a Brokie here and at imdb, I have quite often seen people theorize that the bartender was suggesting Jack look for younger guys.

It's a bit implausible to me, because it would seem like an odd thing for a bartender to recommend. But not entirely out of the realm of possibility. Jack had trouble with bulls (the real bull, plus the figurative bull, Jimbo), and might do better with calves -- that is, younger bulls, younger guys. Also, since the bartender was a pretty close witness to Jack's flirtation with Jimbo, he would likely be clued into Jack's interest in males in general.

I think Jack gets angry about the rejection but also feels threatens by the guys around the pool table, and bolts from the room so as to avoid any potential trouble. He's angry at the bartender either simply because he's embarrassed the bartender witnessed his strike out with Jimbo, or because he interprets the bartender to be referring to young guys and resents it because he's not interested in pedophilia.

I agree it's implausible as well, since the bartender just witnessed Jack trying to oil up the rodeo clown with a direct comment "Best damn rodeo clown I ever worked with," and winked at him.  The bartender did not miss this, so why would he start talking in code at that moment?   He would have said "Maybe you should try somebody your own age", instead of some veiled metaphor.  Since Jack was a bull rider, the bartender was just making conversation about other rodeo events to smooth over the awkward moment with Jimbo.  I do agree with you that Jack bolts from the bar because of his discomfort over what is happening at the pool table and what Jimbo might be telling them about him.

[serious crayons]

I agree it's implausible as well, since the bartender just witnessed Jack trying to oil up the rodeo clown with a direct comment "Best damn rodeo clown I ever worked with," and winked at him.  The bartender did not miss this, so why would he start talking in code at that moment?   He would have said "Maybe you should try somebody your own age", instead of some veiled metaphor.  Since Jack was a bull rider, the bartender was just making conversation about other rodeo events to smooth over the awkward moment with Jimbo.  I do agree with you that Jack bolts from the bar because of his discomfort over what is happening at the pool table and what Jimbo might be telling them about him.

But what the bartender would be saying in that hypothetical scenario is not "Maybe you should try someone your own age," but "Maybe you should try someone much younger than yourself" -- i.e., a "calf," not a bull. Therefore, a discrete veiled metaphor would be called for.

Yes, on the surface the bartender was simply trying to smooth over the moment. But much of the dialogue in the movie is both surface conversation plus metaphor. So John Twist says, "I know where Brokeback Mountain is," meaning 1) he can find it on the map and 2) he knew Jack was gay.

Look, I'm not defending this interpretation to the hilt. But I do think there's some grounds for holding it without it reflecting poorly on the viewer.

[louisev]

But what the bartender would be saying in that hypothetical scenario is not "Maybe you should try someone your own age," but "Maybe you should try someone much younger than yourself" -- i.e., a "calf," not a bull. Therefore, a discrete veiled metaphor would be called for.

Yes, on the surface the bartender was simply trying to smooth over the moment. But much of the dialogue in the movie is both surface conversation plus metaphor. So John Twist says, "I know where Brokeback Mountain is," meaning 1) he can find it on the map and 2) he knew Jack was gay.

Look, I'm not defending this interpretation to the hilt. But I do think there's some grounds for holding it without it reflecting poorly on the viewer.

I can see that.  However, considering that the bartender was being played as a pretty open-faced, unpretentious Joe, the idea of his making a subtle pitch for nudge-nudge-wink-wink calf-roping just doesn't strike me as being in character for him or for the scene, nor did Jack, who was apparently very worldly wise in picking up men, respond to it in that way either.  He responded - literally.

[JudgeHolden]

Think theres a fair bit of overinterpretation going on here. The calf-roping remark is areference to the cowboys around the pool table who, as the screenplay says, got piggin strings looped on their shoulders. Piggin strings are used by calf ropers and it would stand to reason that a rodeo clown would be freinds with tha calf-ropers, as during that event, the clown would not be working (no need for him there) and by extension likely be off-duty and b.s.ing with the ropers during their event. Dring the bullriding and bronc events, there is the need for the clowns' distraction, so the relationship would more likely be a purely working one.

My interpretation is that this clown, for some reason, is uneased by Jacks overeager freindliness and maybe senses theres something under it, or maybe he just looks down on Jack as  a loser, but in anycase, he rejects his offer of a drink and goes back to his buddies around the pool table. Jack looks back and sees them talking, maybe Jimbo is telling them about this queer trying and hit on me, maybe he forgot all about Jack soona s he turned his back on him.

Then the bartender makes his comment, and it could be a "moving right along" subject-changer like "so how bout those Longhorns" or it could be a suggestion that if Jack wants to get in with Jimbo, he should take up the same event as his buddies, or it could also be seen as an underhanded comment on Jacks lack of success (that eveing, anyways) as a bullrider and a suggestion he take up the less dangerous (an maybe implicitly) less manly sport of calf-roping.

Jack doesnt know, but hes embarrassed at being shot down, and also suddenly hes paranoid, thinkin everyone in the place is whispering about him. I heard there was an different ending to this scene where its more clear that Jimbo "outs" Jack and outside the bar, the calf-ropers are jeering and hassling him, and I think the ambiguity is better. Your not exactly sure whats going down and neither is Jack, and this highlights his potential vulnerabilty, if he was to be caught out in the open, as well as giving the truth to Ennis fears on their making a life together. The risks were real and could boil up from nowhere. Therer are potential enemies all around.

[Katie77]

Sounds pretty much how it is Judge........thanks for the info on the cow ropers, gives a lot more meaning to the bartenders statement.

[serious crayons]

JudgeHolden and Louise, I think those are perfectly legitimate interpretations of the scene. As I said, I'm not sold on the other interpretation of "calf ropin," I just think there's an argument to be made for it that does not necessarily mean anything negative about the arguer.

However, IMO, "overinterpretation" is almost impossible in BBM. There is always far, far more going on than meets the eye, and I'm always willing to give anything a fair shake if it's based on evidence in the movie itself (as opposed to ideas like, "LD Newsome had Jack killed!" or other wild-eyed ideas for which there's no evidence at all).

[Artiste]

Interesting posts you gals and guy!

I still stick to my point that Jack was told off ardently,
in more than one way and by more than one person:
by the bartender, by the clown, by those  anti-gay gang-up the clown makes!!!

The situation became dangerous, maybe even a la Mathew Sheppard,
since they ridiculed Jack, they ALL did!!! So, what would be next?
To kill Jack for being gay, even to catch him if he ever did a pederast act?
It all comes down to belittle Jack, debasing him,
chastising him for being a homosexual man!!

There are some points which each one of you make that could be used as proofs
of that danger (in each of your post), but you likely you do not realize that, not yet!

Re-think by re-reading your post? May I ask?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Front-Ranger]

Think theres a fair bit of overinterpretation going on here. The calf-roping remark is areference to the cowboys around the pool table who, as the screenplay says, got piggin strings looped on their shoulders. Piggin strings are used by calf ropers and it would stand to reason that a rodeo clown would be freinds with tha calf-ropers, as during that event, the clown would not be working (no need for him there) and by extension likely be off-duty and b.s.ing with the ropers during their event. Dring the bullriding and bronc events, there is the need for the clowns' distraction, so the relationship would more likely be a purely working one.

My interpretation is that this clown, for some reason, is uneased by Jacks overeager freindliness and maybe senses theres something under it, or maybe he just looks down on Jack as  a loser, but in anycase, he rejects his offer of a drink and goes back to his buddies around the pool table. Jack looks back and sees them talking, maybe Jimbo is telling them about this queer trying and hit on me, maybe he forgot all about Jack soona s he turned his back on him.

Then the bartender makes his comment, and it could be a "moving right along" subject-changer like "so how bout those Longhorns" or it could be a suggestion that if Jack wants to get in with Jimbo, he should take up the same event as his buddies, or it could also be seen as an underhanded comment on Jacks lack of success (that eveing, anyways) as a bullrider and a suggestion he take up the less dangerous (an maybe implicitly) less manly sport of calf-roping.

Jack doesnt know, but hes embarrassed at being shot down, and also suddenly hes paranoid, thinkin everyone in the place is whispering about him. I heard there was an different ending to this scene where its more clear that Jimbo "outs" Jack and outside the bar, the calf-ropers are jeering and hassling him, and I think the ambiguity is better. Your not exactly sure whats going down and neither is Jack, and this highlights his potential vulnerabilty, if he was to be caught out in the open, as well as giving the truth to Ennis fears on their making a life together. The risks were real and could boil up from nowhere. There are potential enemies all around.

After reading more of Larry McMurtry's work, i.e. Lonesome Dove, judgeholden's ideas ring true. That really does seem like the right interpretation of this scene.

[retropian]

JudgeHolden and Louise, I think those are perfectly legitimate interpretations of the scene. As I said, I'm not sold on the other interpretation of "calf ropin," I just think there's an argument to be made for it that does not necessarily mean anything negative about the arguer.

However, IMO, "overinterpretation" is almost impossible in BBM. There is always far, far more going on than meets the eye, and I'm always willing to give anything a fair shake if it's based on evidence in the movie itself (as opposed to ideas like, "LD Newsome had Jack killed!" or other wild-eyed ideas for which there's no evidence at all).

Oh I agree! I love how the variety of idea's and interpretations enrich my understanding of BBM. Each idea here adds something valuable to the discourse and deepens my appreciation of the film. I can't say I disagree with any of these ideas, I don't think any of them are incompatible with the film, or with each other. It's possible to hold several different interpretations as valid simultaneously. I enjoy that sensation, that state of mind.

[Artiste]

Merci beaucoup retropian !

You do have a rare open mind by saying:
         Oh I agree! I love how the variety of idea's and interpretations enrich my understanding of BBM. Each idea here adds something valuable to the discourse and deepens my appreciation of the film. I can't say I disagree with any of these ideas, I don't think any of them are incompatible with the film, or with each other. It's possible to hold several different interpretations as valid simultaneously. I enjoy that sensation, that state of mind.             
...

Retropian, may I say that I am glad that you enjoy such diversity about this scene!

I now wonder if this was about Easter time?

Au revoir,
hugs!