Author Topic: Report your use of Brokieisms in so-called "real life"  (Read 1014842 times)

Offline x-man

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Re: Report your use of Brokieisms in so-called "real life"
« Reply #1050 on: October 12, 2013, 11:29:15 am »
The "straight" men that gay men come in contact with are undoubtedly more experimental.

I really do not know what you mean by this sentence.  Why did you put the word "straight" in quotation marks as though you were using it in a different or ironic way than we usually mean "straight men"?  You did not say "gay" men with quotes just following it.  Are you saying that gay men only encounter straight men who are sexually adventurous, while really straight men would stay away from us?  This is simply not a tenable position to hold.  This is perilously close yo your "the penis provides its own lubricant" remarks about gay sex in postings in another place--I think that there you realized you were in no position to know how we did it, and what we needed to do it.

My main point was that men in general behave differently when with other men only, than they do when women are around.  I have known a lot of men in my life.  I like men; I like to be around them; I like to interact with them; I like to talk to them; I like to work with them; I like to play with them; I like to sleep with them.  I am very sensitive to their moods and behaviour.  I have spent long periods in all-male environments, and have also seen them in action around women--from casual meetings, to interactions with their girl friends, to visits to whorehouses.  I discovered this difference in behaviour in men with, and not-with women when I first began working on a ship when I was 18.  I was quite delightfully surprised to learn this.  And I was quite delightfully surprised when I caught the eye of Blake, the biggest, toughest man on board.  The crew was pretty easygoing, accepting of others, and willing to live and let live.  They certainly knew about Blake and me, but no one said a word.  Of course they wouldn't say anything to Blake about it.  He would have made them "eat the fuckin floor" as Ennis put it to Alma.  I had seen Blake do it.  He was not a violent person at all, but if someone else started it, he would finish it.  They would not have said anything to me because they knew I would tell Blake and it would end up the same way.  But no one really cared.  And Blake and I were not the only ones.  For example, the crew was quite amused--in an accepting and not at all critical way--when two guys were put ashore near the foot of a volcano in the Aleutians to study seismic activity.  They went ashore as nodding acquaintances, and returned 30 days later as lovers.  For them it was summer on BBM, transferred to Alaska.  As Blake once said to me, "There is so little love in the world, you have to get it where you can."  He was a wise man, and taught me a lot.

For my whole life I have seen men reacting to one another in a far deeper emotional way than women might suspect--not necessarily ending up in bed, but sometimes yes.  With men, I think more than with women, intimacy is not strict straight vs gay, but more a continuum.  It runs from always straight through usually straight to the same fuzzied boundary at the gay end of the spectrum.  Sadly there is still enough residual homophobia around that guys at the straighter end of the spectrum are not going to tell women about this, I don't care how many conversations you have with them about it.

Amongst gay men a sometimes topic of conversation is stories of encounters, often humourous and quite surprising, with straight men who turn out to be a lot more adventurous than expected.  And a lot of gay men, including me, have gotten hit on by straight men, some of the more deluded of which think that merely announcing themselves as up for some fun, that the gay man will go for it.  Not true.  It is not wishful thinking on the part of gay men.  Some people have the misguided idea that all gay men secretly want to hookup with straight men because the latter are somehow more masculine.  Neither do we secretly want to, nor do we think that straight men are more masculine.  Yawn.  This is just not true.

Anyway, about this whole business, too bad women are more puritanical about this.  They don't know what they are missing.   
Happiness is the lasting pleasure of the mind grasping the intelligible order of reality.      --Leibniz

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Report your use of Brokieisms in so-called "real life"
« Reply #1051 on: October 12, 2013, 12:13:44 pm »
With men, I think more than with women, intimacy is not strict straight vs gay, but more a continuum.  It runs from always straight through usually straight to the same fuzzied boundary at the gay end of the spectrum.

I'm at the always-straight end of the spectrum, so I'm probably not the best judge, but from what I hear from women friends who are closer to the middle, the pattern is not that different.

That said, I do think even "totally straight" men are more sexually flexible, more willing to take whatever's available. I think they're more likely to have same-sex sex in prison, for example, than women who are straight. They are more open to having sex with strangers. They are far more likely to hire prostitutes. They are even willing -- and please don't take offense or see this as some sort of parallel -- to have sex with inflatable dolls and farm animals.

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Sadly there is still enough residual homophobia around that guys at the straighter end of the spectrum are not going to tell women about this, I don't care how many conversations you have with them about it.

Well, that and the fact that not all guys at the straighter end of the spectrum are quite as open-minded as you've depicted. I knew a young man who, while in the Navy, mysteriously fell off the boat and into the ocean and died. I have no idea what the circumstances were, but it crossed my mind he may have been a victim of a hate crime, because there had been several other similar cases in which the targets were thought to have been gay.

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Some people have the misguided idea that all gay men secretly want to hookup with straight men because the latter are somehow more masculine.  Neither do we secretly want to, nor do we think that straight men are more masculine.  Yawn.  This is just not true.

Again, this seems a sort of sweeping generalization. Probably many or most gay men agree with you. But surely not all. II remember one guy I saw a lot online for a while, a member of the Brokieverse, who would brag about luring straight men into bed like it was an especially enviable score. He sounded like the straight guy who assumes that he can "turn" a lesbian straight.

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Anyway, about this whole business, too bad women are more puritanical about this.  They don't know what they are missing.

Sweeping gender generalization combined with pejorative label combined with judgmental assumption that what's best for you is best for others. A trifecta!


Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Report your use of Brokieisms in so-called "real life"
« Reply #1052 on: October 12, 2013, 01:21:33 pm »
x-man, I will try to answer your questions to the best of my ability but I am not much of a debater, so don't get up the expectation that we will go back-and-forth on these issues.

Why did you put the word "straight" in quotation marks as though you were using it in a different or ironic way than we usually mean "straight men"? 
Well, even some "straight" men don't know themselves whether they are exclusively straight. I've known several men in their 30s and 40s and beyond who just realized they were gay after getting married to women and fathering children. So, when we encounter men who identify themselves as straight but are attracted to men in certain situations and with certain people, I don't know whether to call those men straight or not, so I say "straight" instead. (The same goes for women)

Are you saying that gay men only encounter straight men who are sexually adventurous, while really straight men would stay away from us? 
No. I assume that gay men encounter the same diversity of people as everybody else, unless they spend their lives on gay-only cruise ships.

This is perilously close yo your "the penis provides its own lubricant" remarks about gay sex in postings in another place--I think that there you realized you were in no position to know how we did it, and what we needed to do it.
In that remark, I was explaining that Annie Proulx, the author of the book, suggested that the way the boys were able to have their first sex was with the help of the "clear slick and a little spit." That is what she wrote.... This was further elaborated to me by more than one gay man. I have further experience with this but I'm not going to go into detail.

In addition, any sexually active woman knows that the penis provides its own lubricant. One fact that men sometimes forget is that women often have sex using orifices other than their vaginas, so some women know pretty well what gay sex is like (they don't have prostate glands, but there are other internal glands that like stimulation).

My main point was that men in general behave differently when with other men only, than they do when women are around.  I have known a lot of men in my life.  I like men; I like to be around them; I like to interact with them; I like to talk to them; I like to work with them; I like to play with them; I like to sleep with them.  I am very sensitive to their moods and behaviour.  I have spent long periods in all-male environments, and have also seen them in action around women--from casual meetings, to interactions with their girl friends, to visits to whorehouses. 
x-man, I like all those things too!

I discovered this difference in behaviour in men with, and not-with women when I first began working on a ship when I was 18....  As Blake once said to me, "There is so little love in the world, you have to get it where you can."  He was a wise man, and taught me a lot.
That was a delightful story about Blake. Thanks for sharing it.
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Offline x-man

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Re: Report your use of Brokieisms in so-called "real life"
« Reply #1053 on: October 12, 2013, 05:11:23 pm »
To both serious crayons and Front Ranger, you jumped on things I wasn't expecting, and didn't jump on things I expected you to.

You are right that I should not talk about "men" (either straight or gay) without some qualifier such as "many," "most," etc.  I know linguistics and formal logic well enough to know better.  I was doing it as a shorthand, and probably because I do indeed idealize men.  I know very little about women, which I am sure is obvious.  What I have said about them is based on casual encounters, talks with a very few about these subjects, and on statistics I have read.  From this I really did have the idea that women clustered far more to the straight-gay ends of the spectrum than men.  You seem to be saying this is not true.

Sc, your story of the Brokieite who bragged about his straight-male conquests sounds like he is a person very much caught in the past--say, the 1950's--when there was enough self-loathing amongst gays that many would see a straight guy as more masculine.  But surely in these days, since Gay Liberation took off, such deluded men are at the ever-shrinking edge of the picture.  I hope so.

Sc, a trifecta?  Let's not take things too seriously.  I would, however, stick by my original assumption that ability to be more sexually adventurous is better than being limited.  That being said, I am sure it is obvious that I, personally, could not possibly be adventurous with a woman, as much as I think it is a good idea overall.

FR, no I won't get into a long debate about this subject.  Yours and sc's postings are a good counterweight to mine, and I see that in most places we agree.  You did surprise me by one point--your comment about some women knowing about lubricants because of straight fudge-packing.  I thought that sort of thing was frowned on in the straight world, so I didn't take it into account.

FR, glad we agree about how great (most) men are.  I know there are bastards amongst them, but overall they are wonderful.  I think I have learned more positive things about women here in BetterMost than I ever have before.  So, correct me where I am wrong, but don't think too harshly of me.

Glad you liked the mini-picture of Blake.  He looms larger in my mind than anyone else I have ever met.  What a man!  I was so lucky.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Report your use of Brokieisms in so-called "real life"
« Reply #1054 on: October 12, 2013, 05:55:55 pm »
Sc, your story of the Brokieite who bragged about his straight-male conquests sounds like he is a person very much caught in the past--say, the 1950's--when there was enough self-loathing amongst gays that many would see a straight guy as more masculine.  But surely in these days, since Gay Liberation took off, such deluded men are at the ever-shrinking edge of the picture.  I hope so.

Maybe, but I got the impression this guy was young-ish. Maybe 30s? And in general he was not so much self-loathing as outspokenly pro-gay, slightly heterophobic and openly misogynist. I should clarify my earlier comment. His tone wasn't, "Nyah nyah, I managed to score with an appealingly masculine straight guy"; it was more, "Underneath it all, most straight men would secretly prefer gay sex but pretend to put up with those annoying, unappealing women because they're socialized to do that, but my powers of attraction are such that I was able to get these guys to overcome their inhibitions and show them how much better it could be and I could tell they totally agreed."

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I would, however, stick by my original assumption that ability to be more sexually adventurous is better than being limited.  That being said, I am sure it is obvious that I, personally, could not possibly be adventurous with a woman, as much as I think it is a good idea overall.

It's funny how often straight people are encouraged by progressive, well-meaning others to break out of their rigid (unadventuresome) self-imposed straightness and try some same-sex sex. Gay people get that message in reverse, I know. Except theirs comes from Bible-thumping pastors and far-right-wingers and questionable "therapists" and undereducated relatives and ... People, in other words, to whom those aforementioned well-meaning, progressive friends would be horrified to be compared.




Offline x-man

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Re: Report your use of Brokieisms in so-called "real life"
« Reply #1055 on: October 12, 2013, 08:07:01 pm »
Wow, sc.  That was a real punch in the face, LOL.  You really give no quarter--nor, why should you?  IMO, you are BetterMost gold medal champion hands down.
Happiness is the lasting pleasure of the mind grasping the intelligible order of reality.      --Leibniz

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Report your use of Brokieisms in so-called "real life"
« Reply #1056 on: October 12, 2013, 11:41:42 pm »
Wow, sc.  That was a real punch in the face, LOL.  You really give no quarter--nor, why should you?  IMO, you are BetterMost gold medal champion hands down.

Hmm ... I guess that's a compliment? I hope so, anyway. Certainly no offense intended, x-man!  :)



Offline x-man

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Re: Report your use of Brokieisms in so-called "real life"
« Reply #1057 on: October 13, 2013, 12:59:25 am »
Hmm ... I guess that's a compliment? I hope so, anyway. Certainly no offense intended, x-man!  :)

Oh very DEFINITELY a compliment.  I did not take offence at all--I am not that ego-involved with my postings.  I did think you were misreading me slightly, but no matter.  I got your message exactly, including the subtexts, for both parts.  The "punch" was a sports metaphor concluding with the "gold medal champion."  You are my favourite person to debate here.  You go straight for the problematic points and brush past extraneous issues, personal anecdotes, etc.  Please don't hold back your punches on my account.

As for me, I am still learning who I can talk to without kid gloves.  You seem to be such a person; I hope you will regard me as the same--as you seem to be doing now.  BTW, I did appreciate what you said about my analysis of Ennis' motivation in my "courage" posting several pages back at this site.
Happiness is the lasting pleasure of the mind grasping the intelligible order of reality.      --Leibniz

Offline Sophia

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Re: Report your use of Brokieisms in so-called "real life"
« Reply #1058 on: November 18, 2013, 06:07:23 pm »
I was nineteen when I made my first jump...I felt terrified...almost paniced by the thought of jumping. While standing on cliff, I hesitated....but I made the jump. Today I can think both see; the stupid idea of jumping, and the thought of letting go of life. (as it represent for me) 

Today I found this video...and I must say, seeing those to guys jumping at 3.19...made my heart beat a bite extra.

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlVBg7_08n0[/youtube]

Offline CellarDweller

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Re: Report your use of Brokieisms in so-called "real life"
« Reply #1059 on: November 22, 2013, 09:01:40 am »
Sophia, that song was a pretty big here for Macklemore here in the US.  News stories about it becomming the first gay marriage song to hit the Top 20 were correct, it did get that high, and quite a few people thought it would hit the Top 10.

It just missed, spending three weeks stuck at #11 on the chart, and then it fell back down.  Not bad!


Tell him when l come up to him and ask to play the record, l'm gonna say: ''Voulez-vous jouer ce disque?''
'Voulez-vous, will you kiss my dick?'
Will you play my record? One-track mind!