Author Topic: You shut up about Ennis - this ain't (all) his fault  (Read 77145 times)

Offline serious crayons

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Hey Ruthlessly, thanks for playing! This is fun. And it actually kind of works -- that is, it clarifies to me exactly where you stand compared to me (close, in some cases, but often on the other side of the room).

I will resist the temptation, for now, to comment on your answers or clarify mine. I hope others join the game. If so, maybe we can rephrase some of the questions that were confusing in the first place.

And I'd like to add a couple of questions that were inspired by your answers:

-- Does Ennis think homosexuals deserve death?
           Latjoreme: No. He might think his dad was right that homosexuality is shameful and wrong. But I don't think he believes that if his dad did the job he was right in that case.

-- After Jack dies, will Ennis' homophobia and fears and shame remain intact, now that there's no longer any reason to overcome them?
            Latjoreme: Partly. He has learned a lesson, suggested by his decision to attend the wedding and his swearing to Jack. On the other hand, I don't see him so enlightened that he'd go on to have other relationships with men (though he wouldn't anyway, because he'd still be grieving Jack).


Offline welliwont

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Regarding his homosexuality, would Ennis

-- Describe himself that way to others?
          Latjoreme -- Never.
          Ruthlessly – Agreed, never.
          Jane  -  no.

-- Use the word "queer" or "homosexual" to describe himself to himself?
          Latjoreme -- Early on in the movie, no. By the end, probably yes.
          Ruthlessly – Early, agreed.  End, slightly, possibly, maybe... but still only with fear and self-loathing.
          Jane  -  Early on, not on your f’n life!  By the end, still no.

-- Reluctantly in his heart of hearts consider the possibility that those words might apply to him?
          Latjoreme -- Yes, probably, the whole time.
          Ruthlessly – Agreed.
          Jane  -  yes he would consider that those words might apply to him.

-- Notice he's attracted to men?
          Latjoreme -- Yes, since he was a kid, though he has learned to hide or repress it.
          Ruthlessly – Agreed.
          Jane  -  yes.

-- Wish he weren't?
          Latjoreme -- Sure.
          Jane  -  yes.
          Ruthlessly – Agreed.
And I’ll add:

-- Convince himself almost 100% completely that he isn’t?
          Ruthlessly – Absolutely

-- Recognize that his relationship with Jack constitutes a gay relationship?
          Latjoreme -- Yes, sort of.
          Jane  -  no?   yes?   :-\
          Ruthlessly – No.  No recognition – which signifies to me that it dawns on him, that he becomes aware of it.  No.
And I’ll add:

-- Recognize that his relationship with Jack constitutes a “thing” that he cannot understand or name with its correct, generally-accepted name?
          Ruthlessly – Yes, 100%

-- Believe it's a huge exception to the rule, that he's not "really" gay and otherwise would be attracted only to women?
          Latjoreme -- No.
          Ruthlessly – I’m not sure if I’ve broken down the question into its intended subparts correctly.  Correct me if I’m wrong.  “Believe it’s a huge exception to the rule…” – No.  The only rules to homosexuality that he believes are that it’s wrong and equals (or deserves) death.  “Believe … that he’s not “really” gay …” – Absolutely.  He does not believe himself to be gay.  “Believe … and otherwise would be attracted only to women” – The word “otherwise” would require him to think of himself as gay, which he does not.  He may not be attracted to women sexually, but he believes that he’s supposed to be. 
          Jane  -  hunh??

-- Ever have been involved with another man if not for Jack?
          Latjoreme -- Probably not.
          Ruthlessly – Agreed.  Unless someone came along and led him to it in the same way Jack did – build a friendship, build an intimacy, give Ennis his moment to let it all come bursting out, etc.
          Jane  -  maybe, if he was attracted to and picked up in the right way.

-- Blame Jack for him (Ennis) being gay?
          Latjoreme -- No.
          Ruthlessly – I dunno.  Even if Ennis recognized early on that he is attracted to men, it took Jack to bring Ennis to the point of acting on it.  So, because Ennis does not believe himself to be gay, he very well could blame Jack for bringing Ennis to the point of acting on Ennis’ attraction to other fellas.
          Jane  -  no.

-- Blame Jack for keeping him nothin and nowhere?
          Latjoreme -- Not really.
          Ruthlessly – Half and half.  Ennis knows that he’s nothin’ and nowhere because he has put his “get somewhere” and “be somebody” on the back burner so that he could be available for Jack.  Ennis knows that’s what he’s done.  But, he probably doesn’t accept responsibility for his actions; thus, he blames Jack for it.  For the simple fact that Jack was there, Ennis just couldn’t help himself.
          Jane  -  no, not Jack, but his relationship with Jack?  Yes.

-- Blame his feelings for Jack for keeping him from leading a normal life?
          Latjoreme -- Yes.
          Ruthlessly – Agreed.  He knew he had feelings for Jack, and Ennis called those feelings a “thing,” and he knew that those feelings, that “thing” kept Ennis from leading a normal life – what Ennis would perceive as normal.
          Jane  -  yes

-- Wish he had never gotten involved with Jack in the first place?
          Latjoreme -- No way.
          Ruthlessly – I don’t agree.  If Ennis is like 99% of other people who fall in love (as some people have said    ;)   ), then there are certainly times when he has wished he’d never gotten involved with Jack.  Wished it as an overall defining characteristic of himself?  No.  But gone through long periods of trying to forget, get over, avoid, regret… then, yes.
          Jane  -  no f'n way!

Regarding love, does Ennis

-- Use that word when talking to Jack?
          Latjoreme -- No, obviously.
          Ruthlessly – Agreed.
          Jane  -  no.

-- Use that word when talking to himself?
          Latjoreme -- No.
          Ruthlessly – Agreed.  But he did try to get personalized vanity plates on his truck that say “E (heart) J.”  Unfortunately, the Wyoming DMV doesn’t allow a heart character on their plates.   :laugh:
          Jane  -  no.

-- Notice that he exhibits the feelings and longings and behavior that the rest of us would associate with the word "love"?
          Latjoreme -- Yes.
          Ruthlessly – “Notice?”  Yes, occasionally, but quickly dismisses it as “Can’t be… it’s a “thing.””
          Jane  -  no.

-- Recognize only after the pie scene that all those acts and feelings add up to quote-unquote love?
          Latjoreme -- Hmm ... maybe. (I'm a little on the fence about this, and open -- believe it or not -- to persuasion.)
          Ruthlessly – Getting’ there… plus the other interactions that follow.  Pie’ll do it to ya every time!  They shoulda bin eatin’ pie up on ol’ Brokeback ‘steada beans.
          Jane  -  yes, that is when he starts to realize it, but the pie scene was not the illuminating moment.  He had started to realize it after the Lake Scene confrontation.  That is why he dropped Cassie..

-- Not recognize it until his conversation with Alma Jr.?
          Latjoreme -- No, I think he recognizes in the closet at the very latest.
          Ruthlessly – Fully recognizes it in the closet at the very earliest AND at the very latest.  Was there pie in that there closet?
          Jane  -  No, he starts to recognize it after his breakdown and Jack’s speech.

-- Recognize only in the end that, given that he and Jack were in love, that he should have made honoring that love his first priority, rather than being afraid to do so?
          Latjoreme -- Absolutely.
          Ruthlessly – Recognize … that he should have … rather than…?  No.  Change it to “After the closet scene, especially during his talk with Jr., and given that Ennis now understands that he and Jack were in love, did Ennis wish that he would have been able to have overcome his fears and made his love for Jack his first priority while, after Jack’s death, still not actually dealing with overcoming his fears because there is no longer a reason to with regard to his relationship with Jack?”  Then, yes.  There ain’t that much pie in alla Riverton.
          Jane  -  Yes.

Then the clouds opened up and God said, "I hate you, Alfafa."

ruthlesslyunsentimental

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-- Recognize only after the pie scene that all those acts and feelings add up to quote-unquote love?
          Latjoreme -- Hmm ... maybe. (I'm a little on the fence about this, and open -- believe it or not -- to persuasion.)
          Ruthlessly – Getting’ there… plus the other interactions that follow.  Pie’ll do it to ya every time!  They shoulda bin eatin’ pie up on ol’ Brokeback ‘steada beans.
          Jane  -  yes, that is when he starts to realize it, but the pie scene was not the illuminating moment.  He had started to realize it after the Lake Scene confrontation.  That is why he dropped Cassie..


Or, did he drop Cassie because he realized he could not make a go of it with her... that he was screwed up... that he didn’t have control in his life...  any other reason to believe that he dropped her because he had started to recognize "that all those acts and feelings add up to quote-unquote love?"




By the way, EXCELLENT idea that people responding from now on should just copy previous stuff and put their new answers in a different color.  I never would have thunk of that!


Offline dly64

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Okay you guys … you know I’m gonna play!  ;)

Regarding his homosexuality, would Ennis

-- Describe himself that way to others?
         Latjoreme -- Never.
         Ruthlessly – Agreed, never.
         Jane  -  no.
         Diane – no human way!

-- Use the word "queer" or "homosexual" to describe himself to himself?
          Latjoreme -- Early on in the movie, no. By the end, probably yes.
          Ruthlessly – Early, agreed.  End, slightly, possibly, maybe... but still only with fear and self-loathing.
          Jane  -  Early on, not on your f’n life!  By the end, still no.
          Diane -  No, no, no! I don’t think he’d even consider admitting to himself he would fit into that category.

-- Reluctantly in his heart of hearts consider the possibility that those words might apply to him?
          Latjoreme -- Yes, probably, the whole time.
          Ruthlessly – Agreed.
          Jane  -  yes he would consider that those words might apply to him.
          Diane – He might consider the possibility, but I don’t think he would allow himself to acknowledge that he might be gay.

-- Notice he's attracted to men?
          Latjoreme -- Yes, since he was a kid, though he has learned to hide or repress it.
          Ruthlessly – Agreed.
          Jane  -  yes.
          Diane – Yes … again, I am not sure if he would admit, even to himself that he is attracted to men.

-- Wish he weren't?
          Latjoreme -- Sure.
          Jane  -  yes.
          Ruthlessly – Agreed.
And I’ll add:

-- Convince himself almost 100% completely that he isn’t?
          Ruthlessly – Absolutely
          Diane – ABOSULETLY!! No way would he even be comfortable with the fact that he was gay.

-- Recognize that his relationship with Jack constitutes a gay relationship?
          Latjoreme -- Yes, sort of.
          Jane  -  no?   yes?   :-\
          Ruthlessly – No.  No recognition – which signifies to me that it dawns on him, that he becomes aware of it.  No.
And I’ll add:

-- Recognize that his relationship with Jack constitutes a “thing” that he cannot understand or name with its correct, generally-accepted name?
          Ruthlessly – Yes, 100%
          Diane – I agree with Ruthless 100% on both of these points. No way can he consider that this is a gay relationship … it is an anomaly.

-- Believe it's a huge exception to the rule, that he's not "really" gay and otherwise would be attracted only to women?
          Latjoreme -- No.
          Ruthlessly – I’m not sure if I’ve broken down the question into its intended subparts correctly.  Correct me if I’m wrong.  “Believe it’s a huge exception to the rule…” – No.  The only rules to homosexuality that he believes are that it’s wrong and equals (or deserves) death.  “Believe … that he’s not “really” gay …” – Absolutely.  He does not believe himself to be gay.  “Believe … and otherwise would be attracted only to women” – The word “otherwise” would require him to think of himself as gay, which he does not.  He may not be attracted to women sexually, but he believes that he’s supposed to be. 
          Jane  -  hunh??
          Diane – In Ennis’ mind – yes. I think he can not comprehend (or should I say consciously understand) why he loves Jack. IMO, Ennis blames Jack for being the way he is. If it wouldn’t be for that, Ennis would believe that he would be living a “normal” life.

-- Ever have been involved with another man if not for Jack?
          Latjoreme -- Probably not.
          Ruthlessly – Agreed.  Unless someone came along and led him to it in the same way Jack did – build a friendship, build an intimacy, give Ennis his moment to let it all come bursting out, etc.
          Jane  -  maybe, if he was attracted to and picked up in the right way.
          Diane – I find it highly improbable.

-- Blame Jack for him (Ennis) being gay?
          Latjoreme -- No.
          Ruthlessly – I dunno.  Even if Ennis recognized early on that he is attracted to men, it took Jack to bring Ennis to the point of acting on it.  So, because Ennis does not believe himself to be gay, he very well could blame Jack for bringing Ennis to the point of acting on Ennis’ attraction to other fellas.
          Jane  -  no.
          Diane – as I said above, yes.

-- Blame Jack for keeping him nothin and nowhere?
          Latjoreme -- Not really.
          Ruthlessly – Half and half.  Ennis knows that he’s nothin’ and nowhere because he has put his “get somewhere” and “be somebody” on the back burner so that he could be available for Jack.  Ennis knows that’s what he’s done.  But, he probably doesn’t accept responsibility for his actions; thus, he blames Jack for it.  For the simple fact that Jack was there, Ennis just couldn’t help himself.
          Jane  -  no, not Jack, but his relationship with Jack?  Yes.
          Diane – as I have stated before, yes. I think he sees the relationship as something that has somewhat derailed his life.  If not for Jack, he would probably still be married to Alma and living a blissful lie of a life.

-- Blame his feelings for Jack for keeping him from leading a normal life?
          Latjoreme -- Yes.
          Ruthlessly – Agreed.  He knew he had feelings for Jack, and Ennis called those feelings a “thing,” and he knew that those feelings, that “thing” kept Ennis from leading a normal life – what Ennis would perceive as normal.
          Jane  -  yes
          Diane – same as what I just said above ... .i.e. Yes!

-- Wish he had never gotten involved with Jack in the first place?
          Latjoreme -- No way.
          Ruthlessly – I don’t agree.  If Ennis is like 99% of other people who fall in love (as some people have said    ;)   ), then there are certainly times when he has wished he’d never gotten involved with Jack.  Wished it as an overall defining characteristic of himself?  No.  But gone through long periods of trying to forget, get over, avoid, regret… then, yes.
          Jane  -  no f'n way!
          Diane – No way …. He was his one-in-a-lifetime love. Jack was the one person who could understand him.

Regarding love, does Ennis

-- Use that word when talking to Jack?
          Latjoreme -- No, obviously.
          Ruthlessly – Agreed.
          Jane  -  no.
          Diane – no way … that’s completely out of his character
-- Use that word when talking to himself?
          Latjoreme -- No.
          Ruthlessly – Agreed.  But he did try to get personalized vanity plates on his truck that say “E (heart) J.”  Unfortunately, the Wyoming DMV doesn’t allow a heart character on their plates.   :laugh:
          Jane  -  no.
          Diane – No.

-- Notice that he exhibits the feelings and longings and behavior that the rest of us would associate with the word "love"?
          Latjoreme -- Yes.
          Ruthlessly – “Notice?”  Yes, occasionally, but quickly dismisses it as “Can’t be… it’s a “thing.””
          Jane  -  no.
          Diane – Possibly. He is so cut off from his feelings and others’ perceptions, I don’t know that he would be capable of
          picking up on something like that.


-- Recognize only after the pie scene that all those acts and feelings add up to quote-unquote love?
          Latjoreme -- Hmm ... maybe. (I'm a little on the fence about this, and open -- believe it or not -- to persuasion.)
          Ruthlessly – Getting’ there… plus the other interactions that follow.  Pie’ll do it to ya every time!  They shoulda bin eatin’ pie up on ol’ Brokeback ‘steada beans.
          Jane  -  yes, that is when he starts to realize it, but the pie scene was not the illuminating moment.  He had started to realize it after the Lake Scene confrontation.  That is why he dropped Cassie..
          Diane – No … I think he realized that he loved Jack after their confrontation. The pie scene illustrates how cut off and
          lonely Ennis has become and it is used as a way to close his relationship with Cassie.

-- Not recognize it until his conversation with Alma Jr.?
          Latjoreme -- No, I think he recognizes in the closet at the very latest.
          Ruthlessly – Fully recognizes it in the closet at the very earliest AND at the very latest.  Was there pie in that there closet?
          Jane  -  No, he starts to recognize it after his breakdown and Jack’s speech.
          Diane – No … same as what I have said above.

-- Recognize only in the end that, given that he and Jack were in love, that he should have made honoring that love his first priority, rather than being afraid to do so?
          Latjoreme -- Absolutely.
          Ruthlessly – Recognize … that he should have … rather than…?  No.  Change it to “After the closet scene, especially during his talk with Jr., and given that Ennis now understands that he and Jack were in love, did Ennis wish that he would have been able to have overcome his fears and made his love for Jack his first priority while, after Jack’s death, still not actually dealing with overcoming his fears because there is no longer a reason to with regard to his relationship with Jack?”  Then, yes.  There ain’t that much pie in alla Riverton.
          Jane  -  Yes.
          Diane – Yes, absolutely. I think that is why he has such bitter longing … knowing what could have been and knowing that, since Jack is gone, it will never happen.

Hey Ruthlessly, thanks for playing! This is fun. And it actually kind of works -- that is, it clarifies to me exactly where you stand compared to me (close, in some cases, but often on the other side of the room).

I will resist the temptation, for now, to comment on your answers or clarify mine. I hope others join the game. If so, maybe we can rephrase some of the questions that were confusing in the first place.

And I'd like to add a couple of questions that were inspired by your answers:

-- Does Ennis think homosexuals deserve death?
           Latjoreme: No. He might think his dad was right that homosexuality is shameful and wrong. But I don't think he believes that if his dad did the job he was right in that case.
           Diane – I agree completely with your point of view, Katherine.
-- After Jack dies, will Ennis' homophobia and fears and shame remain intact, now that there's no longer any reason to overcome them?
            Latjoreme: Partly. He has learned a lesson, suggested by his decision to attend the wedding and his swearing to Jack. On the other hand, I don't see him so enlightened that he'd go on to have other relationships with men (though he wouldn't anyway, because he'd still be grieving Jack).
           Diane – Yes … If anything, I see him becoming more bitter and homophobic. In his eyes, Jack was murdered for being gay.

Okay, ladies … this is fun. Let’s keep it going!   ;D
« Last Edit: July 05, 2006, 09:07:47 pm by dly64 »
Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em."

ruthlesslyunsentimental

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Hey Ruthlessly, thanks for playing! This is fun. And it actually kind of works -- that is, it clarifies to me exactly where you stand compared to me (close, in some cases, but often on the other side of the room).

I dunno.  Looks pretty close to me...


Quote
And I'd like to add a couple of questions that were inspired by your answers:


-- Does Ennis think homosexuals deserve death?
           Latjoreme: No. He might think his dad was right that homosexuality is shameful and wrong. But I don't think he believes that if his dad did the job he was right in that case.
          Ruthlessly -- I dunno, again.  He did tell Jack that if he came to know certain things, he'd kill him.  And I don’t believe for a minute he's talking about jealousy here.  His father taught him well.

-- After Jack dies, will Ennis' homophobia and fears and shame remain intact, now that there's no longer any reason to overcome them?
            Latjoreme: Partly. He has learned a lesson, suggested by his decision to attend the wedding and his swearing to Jack. On the other hand, I don't see him so enlightened that he'd go on to have other relationships with men (though he wouldn't anyway, because he'd still be grieving Jack).
          Ruthlessly -- I think so.  Wouldn't Alma, Sr. be the only one who would confront him?  Without his relationship going on with Jack, and without Alma to confront him, I don’t think he'd make any forward steps.  In fact, this may shut him down completely as far as intimate, relationship love goes.


« Last Edit: July 05, 2006, 08:56:56 pm by ruthlesslyunsentimental »

Offline welliwont

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Use me next!    Who else wants to add their two cents?  I have merged all the questions and the added questions together.   ;)


Okay you guys … you know I’m gonna play!  ;)

Regarding his homosexuality, would Ennis:


-- Describe himself that way to others?

         Latjoreme -- Never.
         Ruthlessly – Agreed, never.
         Jane  -  no.
         Diane – no human way!

-- Use the word "queer" or "homosexual" to describe himself to himself?

          Latjoreme -- Early on in the movie, no. By the end, probably yes.
          Ruthlessly – Early, agreed.  End, slightly, possibly, maybe... but still only with fear and self-loathing.
          Jane  -  Early on, not on your f’n life!  By the end, still no.
          Diane -  No, no, no! I don’t think he’d even consider admitting to himself he would fit into that category.

-- Reluctantly in his heart of hearts consider the possibility that those words might apply to him?

          Latjoreme -- Yes, probably, the whole time.
          Ruthlessly – Agreed.
          Jane  -  yes he would consider that those words might apply to him.
          Diane – He might consider the possibility, but I don’t think he would allow himself to acknowledge that he might be gay.

-- Notice he's attracted to men?
          Latjoreme -- Yes, since he was a kid, though he has learned to hide or repress it.
          Ruthlessly – Agreed.
          Jane  -  yes.
          Diane – Yes … again, I am not sure if he would admit, even to himself that he is attracted to men.

-- Wish he weren't?

          Latjoreme -- Sure.
          Jane  -  yes.
          Ruthlessly – Agreed.

And I’ll add:

-- Convince himself almost 100% completely that he isn’t?

          Ruthlessly – Absolutely
          Diane – ABOSULETLY!! No way would he even be comfortable with the fact that he was gay.

-- Recognize that his relationship with Jack constitutes a gay relationship?

          Latjoreme -- Yes, sort of.
          Jane  -  no?   yes?   :-\
          Ruthlessly – No.  No recognition – which signifies to me that it dawns on him, that he becomes aware of it.  No.

And I’ll add:

-- Recognize that his relationship with Jack constitutes a “thing” that he cannot understand or name with its correct, generally-accepted name?
          Ruthlessly – Yes, 100%
          Diane – I agree with Ruthless 100% on both of these points. No way can he consider that this is a gay relationship … it is an anomaly.

-- Believe it's a huge exception to the rule, that he's not "really" gay and otherwise would be attracted only to women?

          Latjoreme -- No.
          Ruthlessly – I’m not sure if I’ve broken down the question into its intended subparts correctly.  Correct me if I’m wrong.  “Believe it’s a huge exception to the rule…” – No.  The only rules to homosexuality that he believes are that it’s wrong and equals (or deserves) death.  “Believe … that he’s not “really” gay …” – Absolutely.  He does not believe himself to be gay.  “Believe … and otherwise would be attracted only to women” – The word “otherwise” would require him to think of himself as gay, which he does not.  He may not be attracted to women sexually, but he believes that he’s supposed to be. 
          Jane  -  hunh??
          Diane – In Ennis’ mind – yes. I think he can not comprehend (or should I say consciously understand) why he loves Jack. IMO, Ennis blames Jack for being the way he is. If it wouldn’t be for that, Ennis would believe that he would be living a “normal” life.

-- Ever have been involved with another man if not for Jack?

          Latjoreme -- Probably not.
          Ruthlessly – Agreed.  Unless someone came along and led him to it in the same way Jack did – build a friendship, build an intimacy, give Ennis his moment to let it all come bursting out, etc.
          Jane  -  maybe, if he was attracted to and picked up in the right way.
          Diane – I find it highly improbable.

-- Blame Jack for him (Ennis) being gay?
          Latjoreme -- No.
          Ruthlessly – I dunno.  Even if Ennis recognized early on that he is attracted to men, it took Jack to bring Ennis to the point of acting on it.  So, because Ennis does not believe himself to be gay, he very well could blame Jack for bringing Ennis to the point of acting on Ennis’ attraction to other fellas.
          Jane  -  no.
          Diane – as I said above, yes.

-- Blame Jack for keeping him nothin and nowhere?
          Latjoreme -- Not really.
          Ruthlessly – Half and half.  Ennis knows that he’s nothin’ and nowhere because he has put his “get somewhere” and “be somebody” on the back burner so that he could be available for Jack.  Ennis knows that’s what he’s done.  But, he probably doesn’t accept responsibility for his actions; thus, he blames Jack for it.  For the simple fact that Jack was there, Ennis just couldn’t help himself.
          Jane  -  no, not Jack, but his relationship with Jack?  Yes.
          Diane – as I have stated before, yes. I think he sees the relationship as something that has somewhat derailed his life.  If not for Jack, he would probably still be married to Alma and living a blissful lie of a life.

-- Blame his feelings for Jack for keeping him from leading a normal life?

          Latjoreme -- Yes.
          Ruthlessly – Agreed.  He knew he had feelings for Jack, and Ennis called those feelings a “thing,” and he knew that those feelings, that “thing” kept Ennis from leading a normal life – what Ennis would perceive as normal.
          Jane  -  yes
          Diane – same as what I just said above ... .i.e. Yes!

-- Wish he had never gotten involved with Jack in the first place?
          Latjoreme -- No way.
          Ruthlessly – I don’t agree.  If Ennis is like 99% of other people who fall in love (as some people have said    ;)   ), then there are certainly times when he has wished he’d never gotten involved with Jack.  Wished it as an overall defining characteristic of himself?  No.  But gone through long periods of trying to forget, get over, avoid, regret… then, yes.
          Jane  -  no f'n way!
          Diane – No way …. He was his one-in-a-lifetime love. Jack was the one person who could understand him.

Regarding love, does Ennis

-- Use that word when talking to Jack?
          Latjoreme -- No, obviously.
          Ruthlessly – Agreed.
          Jane  -  no.
          Diane – no way … that’s completely out of his character

-- Use that word when talking to himself?
          Latjoreme -- No.
          Ruthlessly – Agreed.  But he did try to get personalized vanity plates on his truck that say “E (heart) J.”  Unfortunately, the Wyoming DMV doesn’t allow a heart character on their plates.   :laugh:
          Jane  -  no.
          Diane – No.

-- Notice that he exhibits the feelings and longings and behavior that the rest of us would associate with the word "love"?
          Latjoreme -- Yes.
          Ruthlessly – “Notice?”  Yes, occasionally, but quickly dismisses it as “Can’t be… it’s a “thing.””
          Jane  -  no.  Ennis is all about submersing his feelings.  I don't think he even lets them breathe.
          Diane – Possibly. He is so cut off from his feelings and others’ perceptions, I don’t know that he would be capable of
          picking up on something like that.


-- Recognize only after the pie scene that all those acts and feelings add up to quote-unquote love?
          Latjoreme -- Hmm ... maybe. (I'm a little on the fence about this, and open -- believe it or not -- to persuasion.)
          Ruthlessly – Getting’ there… plus the other interactions that follow.  Pie’ll do it to ya every time!  They shoulda bin eatin’ pie up on ol’ Brokeback ‘steada beans.
          Jane  -  yes, that is when he starts to realize it, but the pie scene was not the illuminating moment.  He had started to realize it after the Lake Scene confrontation.  That is why he dropped Cassie..
          Diane – No … I think he realized that he loved Jack after their confrontation. The pie scene illustrates how cut off and
          lonely Ennis has become and it is used as a way to close his relationship with Cassie.

-- Not recognize it until his conversation with Alma Jr.?
          Latjoreme -- No, I think he recognizes in the closet at the very latest.
          Ruthlessly – Fully recognizes it in the closet at the very earliest AND at the very latest.  Was there pie in that there closet?
          Jane  -  No, he starts to recognize it after his breakdown and Jack’s speech.
          Diane – No … same as what I have said above.

-- Recognize only in the end that, given that he and Jack were in love, that he should have made honoring that love his first priority, rather than being afraid to do so?
          Latjoreme -- Absolutely.
          Ruthlessly – Recognize … that he should have … rather than…?  No.  Change it to “After the closet scene, especially during his talk with Jr., and given that Ennis now understands that he and Jack were in love, did Ennis wish that he would have been able to have overcome his fears and made his love for Jack his first priority while, after Jack’s death, still not actually dealing with overcoming his fears because there is no longer a reason to with regard to his relationship with Jack?”  Then, yes.  There ain’t that much pie in alla Riverton.
          Jane  -  Yes.
          Diane – Yes, absolutely. I think that is why he has such bitter longing … knowing what could have been and knowing that, since Jack is gone, it will never happen.

And I'd like to add a couple of questions that were inspired by your answers:

-- Does Ennis think homosexuals deserve death?
           Latjoreme: No. He might think his dad was right that homosexuality is shameful and wrong. But I don't think he believes that if his dad did the job he was right in that case.
          Ruthlessly -- I dunno, again.  He did tell Jack that if he came to know certain things, he'd kill him.  And I don’t believe for a minute he's talking about jealousy here.  His father taught him well.
           Diane – I agree completely with your point of view, Katherine.

-- After Jack dies, will Ennis' homophobia and fears and shame remain intact, now that there's no longer any reason to overcome them?
            Latjoreme: Partly. He has learned a lesson, suggested by his decision to attend the wedding and his swearing to Jack. On the other hand, I don't see him so enlightened that he'd go on to have other relationships with men (though he wouldn't anyway, because he'd still be grieving Jack).
          Ruthlessly -- I think so.  Wouldn't Alma, Sr. be the only one who would confront him?  Without his relationship going on with Jack, and without Alma to confront him, I don’t think he'd make any forward steps.  In fact, this may shut him down completely as far as intimate, relationship love goes.
           Diane – Yes … If anything, I see him becoming more bitter and homophobic. In his eyes, Jack was murdered for being gay.
          Jane  -  Here is a quote I transcribed from a intro to the song "The Maker Makes"  written by Rufus Wainwright for the movie Brokeback Mountain.  The song is the very last song played during the film, as the credits are just winding down.  Hell most of the people will have left the cinema by the time this song will have started to play! 

Rufus Wainwright:
"It's called The Maker Makes 'cause it's, it's just about, it's
it's sorta a, a the flip side of someone who, who instead of y'now discovering
their homosexuality, y'know moves to NY, and y'now gets y'know a haircut,
um, they decide to sort of stay, where they are and really forsake their uhm,
 their sexuality.
"



Okay, ladies … this is fun. Let’s keep it going!   ;D

« Last Edit: July 06, 2006, 01:08:17 am by latjoreme »
Then the clouds opened up and God said, "I hate you, Alfafa."

Offline serious crayons

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HEY EVERYBODY,

I split this topic into a separate topic called "Fun Brokeback Questionnaires" on the Chez Tremblay board, because they were starting to take on a life of their own and seemed to be getting sort of OT from the original post. I hope nobody minds (if so, please let me know).

Anyway, in doing so I moved the last couple of questionnaires, so go find the last couple of sets of answers there.

Katherine

ruthlesslyunsentimental

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HEY EVERYBODY,

I split this topic into a separate topic called "Fun Brokeback Questionnaires" on the Chez Tremblay board, because they were starting to take on a life of their own and seemed to be getting sort of OT from the original post. I hope nobody minds (if so, please let me know).

Anyway, in doing so I moved the last couple of questionnaires, so go find the last couple of sets of answers there.

Katherine


Ya done good.



Offline dly64

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Ya done good.

Okay, Ruthless ... now it is your turn to get us back on track!!  ;D
Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em."

ruthlesslyunsentimental

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Okay, Ruthless ... now it is your turn to get us back on track!!  ;D

Me?  Uh, I, uh, don't know...


Gimme some time, I'll get it all figured out.  I'll try if I can to make it before November... surely won't take me four f-ing years!


P.S.  I answered your new set of questions in the new thread that latjoreme created.  Good questions!