Author Topic: You shut up about Ennis - this ain't (all) his fault  (Read 85670 times)

Offline JennyC

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Re: Hello - I'm new here
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2006, 03:23:56 pm »
The first time I saw it, I was just letting the story unfold for me - I hadn't read the short story yet so I knew nothing of what was to come.  The second time, I saw it very Jack-centrically. 

Barb,

I didn't realize until you mentioned it  Now come to think of it, I saw the movie with an Ennis-centric view.  Wonder if that has anything to do with why we pick our favorite character among these two.   But is it the reason or the result?
« Last Edit: June 27, 2006, 03:28:49 pm by JennyC »

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Hello - I'm new here
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2006, 03:37:14 pm »
Do you know, Ruthlessly, that all this time, I've never properly seen this movie from Ennis' perspective? 

I, on the other hand, alwys HAVE seen it from Ennis' perspective -- the movie and in these scenes in particular -- and at every opportunity have rushed to his defense when people "blame" him for his actions (or lack of). Yet I haven't always been able to articulate as well as I'd like the reasons I feel so empathetic toward him. So this discussion has opened up a whole new level of understanding for me, too. Especially this part:

Quote
it's Ennis who is making little gestures and speaking little words of love or affection -- Ennis starts the playful tussle by tapping Jack...  Ennis, like a wide-eyed little boy, shows Jack the piece of hail -- lookey how big this one is! -- while Jack just tends to the business of getting them secured in the tent... Ennis is the one who dismisses Jack's "f- Aguirre" comment -- by saying "What if we need to work for him again?" -- ENNIS is the one who actually verbalizes that they may be together again after this summer... Ennis teases Jack about his harmonica playing... and Ennis is the one who initiates the dozy embrace (which I believe is properly placed at this point in the film).  Post-SNIT, it's Ennis who does all of the overt affection showing.

All this time defending Ennis, and I'd never thought of those scenes in that light. Way to go, Ruthlessly.

And Barb, if this perspective helps unite die-hard Jackcentrics and Enniscentrics like you and me, so much the better!  :)

PS, this makes perfect sense:

  But the interesting irony here is that Ennis pushes people away from himself.  Often times people become what they fear or hate the most.  Ennis became what he believed he "was worthy of" -- being abandoned.  And he himself ends up doing the abandoning -- most importantly, on an emotional level.

So true! People who fear being abandoned often are the first to do the abandoning, because they'd rather have control of the situation rather than endure the pain of having it done TO them.

PSS Jenny, your post came in as I was writing this. Good point, and it seems like a chicken-and-egg question, hunh?

Offline southendmd

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Re: Hello - I'm new here
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2006, 04:20:53 pm »
OK, I feel the need to defend poor Jack: While I can agree on some of the above points, I want to point out the following:

Jack is incredibly tender in tent scene #2, cradling Ennis who looks like a scared child, and tells him it's all right.

Certainly their paradise is cut short and unexpected. Jack's offer of a loan is, I think, a way, however lame, to extend the relationship; stay in touch. 

In their tussle, Jack is horrified that he has hurt Ennis and tries to comfort him and is blasted instead.

At the parting, it is Jack who asks if Ennis is going to do this again, Jack says I might be back. Ennis says, like I said I'm getting married (shades of 'it ain't gonna be that way').

Just as Ennis expects abandonment, I think Jack expects rejection.

Offline YaadPyar

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Re: Hello - I'm new here
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2006, 04:44:23 pm »
Hello Ruth/Ruthless -

You'll find plenty of folks here happy to explore every nuance of BBM right along with you.  Great community here and great spirit - lots of humor and insight and all sorts of wonderful other qualities.  Welcome!

Celeste
"Vice, Virtue. It's best not to be too moral. You cheat yourself out of too much life. Aim above morality. If you apply that to life, then you're bound to live life fully." (Harold & Maude - 1971)

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Hello - I'm new here
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2006, 04:45:32 pm »
Just as Ennis expects abandonment, I think Jack expects rejection.

Wooo-eeee.  You sure said a mouthful there, darlin'.
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ruthlesslyunsentimental

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Re: Hello - I'm new here
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2006, 04:55:01 pm »

Just as Ennis expects abandonment, I think Jack expects rejection.


A really excellent observation!  He sure does get it doesn't he?  He's always marginalized.



BTW -- I don't take either Ennis' or Jack's side in the film.  I just take it all for what it's worth.  In my post I was just pointing out that Jack failed Ennis at the most crucial moment.  I didn't mean to imply that the relationship failures were all Jack's fault.  Just that both boys had their hands in the proverbial coffee pot -- and bucket, for that matter.  (Although it does seem that Ennis takes most of the heat for it.)

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Hello - I'm new here
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2006, 05:06:47 pm »

A really excellent observation!  He sure does get it doesn't he?  He's always marginalized.

BTW -- I don't take either Ennis' or Jack's side in the film.  I just take it all for what it's worth.  In my post I was just pointing out that Jack failed Ennis at the most crucial moment.  I didn't mean to imply that the relationship failures were all Jack's fault.  Just that both boys had their hands in the proverbial coffee pot -- and bucket, for that matter.  (Although it does seem that Ennis takes most of the heat for it.)

I hear you, there.  I am one of the most militant defenders of Jack around these parts, as you can probably surmise.  ;).  Your insights here are showing me that *I* have taken his side in all these viewings, though not intentionally.  I wonder if those of us who do find ourselves defending him more often and vehemently than we do Ennis do that because we relate more to having been rejected than having been abandoned?  (Sort of trying to answer JennyC's question here, via southendmd's excellent observation.)
« Last Edit: June 27, 2006, 05:08:32 pm by ednbarby »
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Offline southendmd

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Re: Hello - I'm new here
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2006, 05:34:05 pm »
Great thread! Hey, Ruthlessly, you might consider changing the subject line to entice others.

I agree that it "takes two to two-step".  The first time I saw the film, at the parting scene, I was incredulous: "What??!! Ennis, you're just gonna turn around a leave with a 'see you around'? and Jack, you're not going after him??" I just sat there with my mouth open, "What the f--- just happened?"

Not to get too shrinky, but each is set up for this:

Ennis was abandoned by his parents early on in life, and then is (unintentionally) abandoned by his sibling caretakers and becomes alone in the world. I think he expects to be alone, or to be left, and then does the abandoning himself.
In addition, he "abandons" his own feelings.

Jack clearly tells us of the rejection by his father: 'can't please my old man; never taught me a thing, never once came to see me ride.' (Many gay boys can relate to this). Perhaps he becomes tentative around Ennis ('I ain't queer') for fear of rejection.

And, they're both too young and unsure of themselves at this point to dare to try to be together.  It's only later that Jack suggests it.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2006, 05:36:09 pm by southendmd »

Offline Kelda

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Re: Hello - I'm new here
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2006, 05:52:33 pm »
nothing to add except welcome 'ruth' and great post and replies!
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Hello - I'm new here
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2006, 06:00:15 pm »
(Although it does seem that Ennis takes most of the heat for it.)

Yeah, that's exactly the problem. I would probably take Ennis' side anyway. But my natural empathy for and inclination to defend him is intensified because he's so often blamed for the relationship's failures -- especially unfairly, IMO, given how much Ennis is a product of his environment.

I wonder if those of us who do find ourselves defending him more often and vehemently than we do Ennis do that because we relate more to having been rejected than having been abandoned?

For some reason, this sort of explation doesn't apply to me. No events in my "real life" would predict a greater empathy for Ennis -- in fact, according to Barb's reasoning I would be a Jackophile. I don't know exactly what causes those preferences. (Well, OK, I do have one theory, but it's too shallow to get into here.)

Great thread! Hey, Ruthlessly, you might consider changing the subject line to entice others.

I'd second this. I was talking up this thread on another thread, and someone replied that he'd read Ruthlessly's post over lunch and liked it a lot, but wouldn't have done so without my recommendation because this guy was thrown off by the subject line.