"I figured you were sore from that punch"

[dly64]

If Ennis would have gotten into the truck and they'd ridden off together, nobody would have made a movie about their lives. We'd never have heard of them, and wouldn't know to be glad that things had worked out happily.

True. Very true. But it is worth dreaming about ... I would have loved to see them together at the end. (Of course we know that would have constituted a formulaic movie and would not have evoked the passion and conversation that the film has). But it is fun to dream! 

[serious crayons]

I would have loved to see them together at the end. (Of course we know that would have constituted a formulaic movie and would not have evoked the passion and conversation that the film has).

Sometimes I think that would be fine with me. It would still be a lovely movie, I still would have enjoyed it a lot and want to see it a bunch of times and thought about it for a while and recommended it to everyone and rooted for it at Oscar time.

But if it had ended happily, then six months after seeing the movie -- hell, six days, probably -- I would have my life back.

[Mikaela]

Heh. I imagined Jack bursting into the church at "speak now or forever hold your peace," then accidentally shooting somebody... and then Jack and Ennis running from the law in some bad parody of a Western.

Fortunately, I woke up.

Reading this thread, completely unbidden I imagined another version: The one where Jack gets killed very early on by some ugly gay-bashers, and the rest of the film is the devastated Ennis tracking them down and putting his gun and his fists to good use in a huge spray of blood. I imagine that version of re-invented Hollywood gay masculinity might well have found favour with persons who were squicked by the tenderness and passion of the kissing scenes and the motel scene. Might have made them vote for the film at the Oscars, even.

Of course, they also would have lost me from their audience;  - I avoid violent revenge films like the plague.

Luckily, I managed to claw my way back to RL fromthis horrible nightmare! 



I don't think the film would have had such an impact on me if there'd been a happy ending. I know it wouldn't. I admit I've been wondering (and worrying) about why that is.   

[serious crayons]

Jack gets killed very early on by some ugly gay-bashers, and the rest of the film is the devastated Ennis tracking them down and putting his gun and his fists to good use in a huge spray of blood. 

Hey, it's not too late! "Brokeback II: Ennis' Revenge." Would you go, Mikaela ... if it included plenty of flashbacks? 

I don't think the film would have had such an impact on me if there'd been a happy ending. I know it wouldn't. I admit I've been wondering (and worrying) about why that is.   

I think it's because one of the most powerful things that hits you (I mean "you" the viewer) is the immense sadness and sense of tragedy. That's not all there is to the movie's power; there is also the positive emotions of the happy parts (TS2, the reunion, etc.) plus all the other appealing things -- romantic, aesthetic, intellectual, dramtic, literary, erotic (not necessarily in that order). So if you took the sadness and tragedy out, the film would still be good. But you'd be missing that big chunk of its impact.

[Mikaela]

Brokeback II: The revenge     

Would you go, Mikaela ... if it included plenty of flashbacks? 

*Plenty* of flashbacks? Well, let's see........ Oh, who am I kidding. Plenty of flashbacks of the right sort and I would have been first in line on premiere night for sure.

But those flashbacks had better deliver the goods! Because you know, there wouldn't only be the graphic violence. In the tradition of this type of film (given that Ennis is after all gay and therefore can't possibly just be allowed to be seen walking away scot-free in the end ) - he'd probably be fighting a personal timeline due to being mortally ill from lung cancer or some such.   

the most powerful things that hits you (I mean "you" the viewer) is the immense sadness and sense of tragedy.

Yes, it is all that. But why all that sadness and tragedy, those squashed hopes and twarthed longings and wasted lives should hold such a spell over such a long time..... it's a topic that belongs in the "Why are we like this" thread I suppose. But I'm still not sure that I fully know the answer.

[Brown Eyes]

Yes, it is all that. But why all that sadness and tragedy, those squashed hopes and twarthed longings and wasted lives should hold such a spell over such a long time..... it's a topic that belongs in the "Why are we like this" thread I suppose. But I'm still not sure that I fully know the answer.

Well, I think that tragic romances are essentially the most classic type of romance.  It seems that the romances that stand the test of time (Romeo and Juliet... to name only the most obvious) and even classical romances (a la the Classical Allusion thread from TOB) are all about a core of sadness... or a bittersweetness.  It's hard to think of a lot of great romances (literary or cinematic) that have happy, happy endings. 

And, I've said it before, but I'll repeat it here.  My very first reaction to BBM walking out of the theater after my first viewing was... "wow, they were lucky."  Of course this is a profound tragedy on many levels- from the very obvious (Jack dies young - and maybe is murdered-, Ennis had a tragic childhood, they each spend a lot of time being lonely, they couldn't figure out a way to live together, etc.) to extremely subtle emotional tragedies.  To me one of the biggest tragedies is how much time they lost by being apart so much.  The 'never enough time' tragedy really stings for me.  BUT, in the end there are little triumphs too.  Even after he's dead, Jack is able to express his love for Ennis and reach out and comfort him - help him find a little closure -with those shirts.  And Jack gets the commitment that he wanted from Ennis.  Many people don't find a true-love like they had.  And, eventhough their time together was fraught with separations... they still had twenty years of being in love.  They made each others lives happy and exciting.  To have had one kiss like the reunion kiss is something profoundly wonderful (and I think we can assume that they had more like that...).

I guess I'm preaching to the choir here... but there's really a lot of sweet with the bitter here.

[jpwagoneer1964]

Well, I think that tragic romances are essentially the most classic type of romance.  It seems that the romances that stand the test of time (Romeo and Juliet... to name only the most obvious) and even classical romances (a la the Classical Allusion thread from TOB) are all about a core of sadness... or a bittersweetness.  It's hard to think of a lot of great romances (literary or cinematic) that have happy, happy endings. 

And, I've said it before, but I'll repeat it here.  My very first reaction to BBM walking out of the theater after my first viewing was... "wow, they were lucky."  Of course this is a profound tragedy on many levels- from the very obvious (Jack dies young - and maybe is murdered-, Ennis had a tragic childhood, they each spend a lot of time being lonely, they couldn't figure out a way to live together, etc.) to extremely subtle emotional tragedies.  To me one of the biggest tragedy is how much time they lost by being apart so much.  The 'never enough time' tragedy really stings for me.  BUT, in the end there are little triumphs too.  Even after he's dead, Jack is able to express his love for Ennis and reach out and comfort him - help him find a little closure -with those shirts.  And Jack gets the commitment that he wanted from Ennis.  Many people don't find a true-love like they had.  And, eventhough their time together was fraught with separations... they still had twenty years of being in love.  They made each others lives happy and exciting.  To have had one kiss like the reunion kiss is something profoundly wonderful (and I think we can assume that they had more like that...).

I guess I'm preaching to the choir here... but there's really a lot of sweet with the bitter here.

Amen! They were so lucky in so many ways

[Brown Eyes]

Hi jpwagoneer1964!  Thanks for the nice post and timely photo!

The more I think about it... the little triumphs seem to be an interesting theme or trend.  Of course it all ends with the "biggest" triumph (probably) which is the "I swear...".  Jack has died, Ennis is sad and lonely, "society" has kept them apart in many ways, their relationship was going through some big tests at the time of their last meeting, etc.  But still through all of this the core, important thing is there...  Ennis and Jack still love each other.  None of these seemingly devastating things have really rocked that core.

[Ellemeno]

I'm late to this party - womderful thread chock full of favorite posters.  I think the reason Jack doesn't really answer Ennis in the movie (about being sore from that punch) and replies tangentially in the story (something like "You won't catch me like that again") is because he has long since forgiven Ennis.  I think Jack forgives Ennis easily again and again. 

[mvansand76]

I'm late to this party - womderful thread chock full of favorite posters.  I think the reason Jack doesn't really answer Ennis in the movie (about being sore from that punch) and replies tangentially in the story (something like "You won't catch me like that again") is because he has long since forgiven Ennis.  I think Jack forgives Ennis easily again and again. 

And I think Jack understood why Ennis threw that punch, he understood the underlying emotions like no one else, because he had the same emotions, he was feeling the same pain. That's why he wasn't acting angry anymore at the time they said goodbye...