Author Topic: "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe..."  (Read 35871 times)

Offline Penthesilea

  • Town Administration
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,745

Every time I watch it, I get caught by surprise at the post-divorce scene. Because that, for me, is where the story starts to really go downhill emotionally. When it comes, I always think, "Noooo! Not already! It's too soon! For god's sake, give them a little more time!"


Once more, I'm with you here. I always think: from now on, there's only direction everything goes: down.
One time I stopped the movie in the court room scene, because I just couldn't bear it at that day.

This is sad.  I am a grown woman.  Damn you BrokeBack and thank God for you.

I'm grown woman too. But I also have days when I just can't bear it. Aditionally to stopping at the scene in the court room, I also stopped twice when they come down the mountain.
I have also another stategy: after watching the whole movie, including the credits to the very last (and crying all the time), sometimes I watch the first 10 or 15 minutes of the movie again. Et voilà, here they are again: young, full of life and so wonderful alive. It helps, at least for me.

Oh my, pretty crazy  :-\ But they feel so damn real. Like others have said: like close friends, like people you've known a long time and known very well.
Weeks ago I was at a handball tournament with my husband and children. A big crowd of people, among them a bunch of friends and fellow supporting parents whose children play toghether with mine for years now. And suddenly I sat among these people and thought about Ennis Del Mar. How he would feel in such a group of people. (Awkward; he wouldn't like it, having to be social and all, chit-chatting here and there and so on  ;D) I catch myself thinking about Ennis or Jack, how they would feel or behave in situations of  real life. Now is this crazy or just another sign of Brokeback-fever?

It eases my mind that Annie Proulx herself and Ang Lee seem to have felt similar: I love the way Annie Proulx descibes in her essay "Getting movied" how these characters came to life for her, and the fact that Ang Lee thanked Ennis and Jack (not Heath and Jake or Annie) in his acceptence speech at the oscars.
BTW I read this snippet about Ang Lee somewhere here on BetterMost, but don't know who said it.

Offline Mikaela

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,229
  • Unsaid... and now unsayable
And suddenly I sat among these people and thought about Ennis Del Mar. How he would feel in such a group of people. (Awkward; he wouldn't like it, having to be social and all, chit-chatting here and there and so on  ;D) I catch myself thinking about Ennis or Jack, how they would feel or behave in situations of  real life. Now is this crazy or just another sign of Brokeback-fever?



I do this too, I've caught myself at it several times. Thinking wbout Ennis and Jack and what they'd do if they were present or in a similar situation. It doesn't feel crazy, but a bit lonely, because I don't feel I can voice those thoughts out loud. It's good to have all of you and this board where I can go on about the two of them.

Quote
It eases my mind that Annie Proulx herself and Ang Lee seem to have felt similar: I love the way Annie Proulx descibes in her essay "Getting movied" how these characters came to life for her, and the fact that Ang Lee thanked Ennis and Jack (not Heath and Jake or Annie) in his acceptence speech at the oscars.

Exactly! Me too, me too.

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,712
When I used to see the movie in the theater, I would come out onto the crowded sidewalk (out on the pavement!) and think, the people I spent the past 134 minutes with feel more real than these people who are here around me.

Offline jpwagoneer1964

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,720
  • Me and my 1951 DeSoto Suburban
To me Heath and Jake will be Ennis and Jack.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2006, 11:40:41 pm by jpwagoneer1964 »
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

moremojo

  • Guest
Here's my take:

There was some open space...
--There was some room to forget, for just a moment, the reality of what Ennis's life (more specifically, his life without Jack) had become. The use of the metaphor of 'open space' is so apposite for a ranch hand born, bred, and likely to die under the big skies of the Western lands.

...between what he knew...
--What Ennis knew is that Jack was dead and, to his mind, lost to him forever.

...and what he tried to believe...
--Ennis must have hoped, in fleeting, elusive moments, to hear Jack's voice, to see a new postcard from him, to feel his hand surprise him in the sweetest of ways. He saw Jack in his dreams, and believed enough in the verisimilitude of the vision to awaken sometime with the sheets wet--how saddened he must have immediately become to remember that it was, after all, only a dream.

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,712
Quote from: moremojo link=topic=2973.msg81544#msg81544 date=my take:
...[i
between what he knew[/i]...
--What Ennis knew is that Jack was dead and, to his mind, lost to him forever.

...and what he tried to believe...
--Ennis must have hoped, in fleeting, elusive moments, to hear Jack's voice, to see a new postcard from him, to feel his hand surprise him in the sweetest of ways.

So well put, Scott. I do think the line refers to Ennis' feelings about Jack's death, but I've always interpreted it in terms of the tire iron question. This way is much more poignant. And, I think, undeniably true of every grieving loved one.

Offline nakymaton

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,045
  • aka Mel
...between what he knew...
--What Ennis knew is that Jack was dead and, to his mind, lost to him forever.

...and what he tried to believe...
--Ennis must have hoped, in fleeting, elusive moments, to hear Jack's voice, to see a new postcard from him, to feel his hand surprise him in the sweetest of ways. He saw Jack in his dreams, and believed enough in the verisimilitude of the vision to awaken sometime with the sheets wet--how saddened he must have immediately become to remember that it was, after all, only a dream.

 :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

Yes.
Watch out. That poster has a low startle point.

Offline j.U.d.E.

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,747
As far as what Ennis tried to believe (and this tears at me, too, that he isn't sure) - he could only try to believe that, given the chance in November, he would finally have said yes to Jack ("Jack, I swear.."), and saved Jack, and himself.
You think? It would have saved Jack and himself? I mean, had he said yes, he might then, have been exposed to the same 'ending' as Jack (if you go with the theory that Jack was murdered).

Now that I think of it.. as much as Ennis knew he loved Jack and had never loved another person quite as much as Jack and never would again, maybe he was even more homophobic and so damn deep in denial of his own real sentiments, that he didn't say yes, because he had more fear of ending like Earl, than showing love towards Jack? It's quite a depressing thought really - Ennis basically denying his feelings and thus 'letting' Jack die, in order to save his own life. Was he more afraid of dying than showing his affection to Jack and the world..?

 j. U. d. E.
MLK - - - - - - - - - - - - HAL - - - - - - - - - - - - BHO
*15 jan 1929 - †04 apr 1968 | *04 apr 1979 - † 22 jan 2008 | *04 aug 1961 -

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,712
Re: "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe
« Reply #58 on: September 02, 2006, 12:23:44 am »
Now that I think of it.. as much as Ennis knew he loved Jack and had never loved another person quite as much as Jack and never would again, maybe he was even more homophobic and so damn deep in denial of his own real sentiments, that he didn't say yes, because he had more fear of ending like Earl, than showing love towards Jack? It's quite a depressing thought really - Ennis basically denying his feelings and thus 'letting' Jack die, in order to save his own life. Was he more afraid of dying than showing his affection to Jack and the world..?

Hi Jude! Nice to see you around these parts!

I don't think Ennis' fear of Earl's fate was the only reason to keep from shacking up with Jack -- maybe didn't even top the list. I think it was more a generalized fear and shame and belief that homosexuality is "wrong."

On the bright (well, sort of brighter) side is that, to the fear of physical danger was a factor, I don't think Ennis applied it just to himself. He had showed himself to be protective of Jack and/or willing to suffer on Jack's behalf (switching jobs, ordering soup, killing the elk). I think Ennis was as concerned about Jack's safety as his own.


Offline brach

  • Don't Say Much
  • *
  • Posts: 2
I think you guys are leaving out an important part of the quote: "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could
be done about it,
and if you can’t fix it you’ve got to stand it." 

"Open space" means simply "discrepancy." "Open space" does not mean "the reader is free to interpret this quote any which way he chooses."

Examples of things the quote refers to: (1) Ennis may have tried to believe Jack's death was an accident, but he wasn't sure which way it was, "the tire iron or a real accident." (2) Ennis may have tried to believe Jack would not have really quit him for that "ranch neighbor a his from down in Texas", but he could never be sure because Jack had died before they could talk about it.

The significance of the shirts:  Jack had probably put the shirts in his Lightning Flat closet shortly after he returned from Brokeback in August 1963, and he very likely forgot about them years later, or else he would have kept them with him at his home in Chlidress.  The reason Jack stole Ennis's shirt in the first place was because he knew Ennis would be marrying Alma and believed he'd probably never see Ennis again. In any case, Jack did not plant the shirts in his boyhood closet in Lightning Flat for Ennis to discover 20 years later. Those shirts were Jack's way of memorialiazing the "dozy embrace" and how he felt about Ennis when they split up back in 1963.

20 years after Brokeback, Jack had surely come to accept that Ennis would never live with him:   

"Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed
happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that
Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see or feel that it was
Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they’d never got much farther than that. Let be, let be."

« Last Edit: November 27, 2006, 09:05:05 pm by brach »