"There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe..."

[nakymaton]

So, how do you interpret the last line of the story?

Here's my interpretation:

There was some open space

• the things he knew and tried to believe didn't quite match up

between what he knew

• that Jack was gone
• that he missed Jack more than anything
• that he missed his smile, his voice, his dumb-ass missing, his bitching, the way he looked at Ennis's lips like he'd skip breakfast lunch and supper if he could only taste them now...
• that he would dream about Jack, and some of the dreams were... enough to warm the day, but not something to discuss, even if they wouldn't disappear if he tried to put them into words
• that he didn't go up there to fish
• that he loved Jack

and what he tried to believe...

• that he wasn't like Earl and Rich
• that he wasn't like Earl and Rich
• that he wasn't like Earl and Rich
• that he wasn't like Rich

• that "I ain't queer"
• that... he tried to believe...

(I took about a week off, walked away for a bit, and haven't had time to read all the posts in my absence, so apologies if this has been discussed recently in another thread. It's been niggling at me since I decided to try to walk away, though.)

[welliwont]

So, how do you interpret the last line of the story?

Hi Mel:

What a grrrrrreat idea for a thread!!!  I love it!!!      Ok, Here's my interpretation, that I concluded for myself way back in April:

There was some open space

• uncertainty
• room for Ennis to draw his own conclusion about how Jack died

between what he knew

• that he was in the dark as to the truth about how Jack died
• he did not have concrete evidence, only Lureen's account of it

and what he tried to believe...

• that Jack was not killed in a brutal way
• that it was an accident, just as Lureen described

I hope this is clear, I am saying that:  "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe", I interpret as:

Ennis did not know a hunnerd percent that it was the brutal death of his imagination, so what he tried to believe was that it was the accident.

The reason I concluded this (and I have not read the story for a couple of months so I hope I haven't forgotten all my proofs) is because in the story Annie writes "Ennis did not hear about the accident for months".  So since the narrator of the story called it an accident, that could very well be the correct description for Jack's death.  (Of course I know that she could be calling it an accident as in "Ennis did not hear about the-accident-described-by-Lureen"  so that 'proof' is not conclusive, but my second 'proof' for thinking it was an accident is again based on what the narrator says:

There was some space between what Ennis knew and what he tried to believe  -  hey wait a minute!  I am using the same line in the story to prove the same line in the story!       Good grief!!         I think I better read the story agin, 'n stop readin' so much fanfic 'n threads on BetterMost!!!  (Never gonna happen!!) 

Is there anybody out there who concurs with my interpretation?  Anybody?  Because on the poll of this subject I know that my vote was in the minority.  I have since broadened my view of the bigger picture, but as to the deciphering of this sentence, this is still how I interpret it.

Jane

[RouxB]

Love this line-it is the perfect end to a perfect story. I interpret the line to mean that the open space was Ennis's acknowledgement to himself that perhaps living with Jack would not have resulted in their deaths, that given another chance he-
Ennis-would have made differenct choices, that he-Ennis-had loved Jack from the beginning and that Jack loved him. But the opportunity was gone and the only option left to him was to stand it.

JT-my opinion of the way Jack died was also colored by the choice of words of the narrator-describing the death as an accident. I have never been in the "Jack murdered" camp but there is some open space between with I know and what I want to believe.

 

[Meryl]

Hey Mel, I'm glad the niggling brought you back.  Was missin' you. 

When I boil it down, I think that what he knew was that Jack was killed by the tire iron.  What he tried to believe was that he was not. 

[Midnight24]

Hey Mel, I'm glad the niggling brought you back.  Was missin' you. 

When I boil it down, I think that what he knew was that Jack was killed by the tire iron.  What he tried to believe was that he was not. 

I'd have to agree with you. I know it seems kind of opposite of what most people would think, but I have to agree with your way. 

[fernly]

I agree with all of you, and how about this, too...

Much as it tears at me to say it, I think part of what Ennis knew was that the choices he made did help lead to Jack's death.
(Like Jake himself and many others have said before, once Jack was sure that Ennis would never really be with him, that's when he began to die.)

Far as what Ennis tried to believe (and this tears at me, too, that he isn't sure) - he could only try to believe that, given the chance in November, he would finally have said yes to Jack ("Jack, I swear.."),
and saved Jack, and himself.

[Midnight24]

I agree with all of you, and how about this, too...

Much as it tears at me to say it, I think part of what Ennis knew was that the choices he made did help lead to Jack's death.
(Like Jake himself and many others have said before, once Jack was sure that Ennis would never really be with him, that's when he began to die.)

Far as what Ennis tried to believe (and this tears at me, too, that he isn't sure) - he could only try to believe that, given the chance in November, he would finally have said yes to Jack ("Jack, I swear..")

What you said really makes sense. It actually makes this a lot more emotional for me (the movie's already emotional enough), but the idea of him finally saying yes in November in the "Jack, I swear..." actually fit in together. Thanks for pointing that out. 

[Jeff Wrangler]

I've focussed my understanding narrowly and a little bit differently from what I've read above, not really looking at in relation to the manner of Jack's death. I wish I had the story in front of me, but I never carry it with me to work, so here's my reading:

What Ennis knew, thanks to old man Twist, was that shortly before Jack died he had been talking about bringing someone other than Ennis up to Lightning Flat.

What Ennis tried to believe, since the shirts were still in the closet, was that Jack had not quit him and still loved him.

But Jack was dead, he could never really know, so he had to stand it. Poor Ennis. ... 

[Daniel]

I actually performed on of my daily meditations on this line. Whatever its meaning, it is profoundly stated and suggests a great many things in my opinion. It can be interpreted practically any way. See Daily Meditation 23. http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=538.msg49485#msg49485.

[Meryl]

What Ennis knew, thanks to old man Twist, was that shortly before Jack died he had been talking about bringing someone other than Ennis up to Lightning Flat.

What Ennis tried to believe, since the shirts were still in the closet, was that Jack had not quit him and still loved him.

But Jack was dead, he could never really know, so he had to stand it. Poor Ennis. ... 

Phew!  That's a sad take on it, Jeff, but it does make sense to me.  Ennis didn't have a lot of self confidence, and I could see him worrying that Jack had found someone more compatible, maybe more 'fun' (as he said to Cassie) to share his life with. 

Ennis had to know that Jack loved him, but a big part of Ennis's grief must have centered on the fact that he drove Jack to do what he did by his refusal to give Jack what he needed.  He tried to believe that he had been right to refuse, but in the end, he knew that that refusal had cost them both dearly. 

[opinionista]

I actually performed on of my daily meditations on this line. Whatever its meaning, it is profoundly stated and suggests a great many things in my opinion. It can be interpreted practically any way. See Daily Meditation 23. http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=538.msg49485#msg49485.

The beauty of love and romance, in part, is due to the natural opposition of death and life. Where there is hope, death cannot enter. There is open space between what we know and what we try to believe. But there is definitely something we can do. To take one step into that space: to wonder, to hope, to think, to believe, can immensely change a person's life from its drab, nonessential existence to a lively performance of play between soul and body, heart and mind. Whether or not this play resolves the situation is not important. What is important is that we not simply stand the situation and do nothing to resolve our pain and anguish.

I agree. Very beautifully put Daniel.

[ednbarby]

I agree with all of you, and how about this, too...

Much as it tears at me to say it, I think part of what Ennis knew was that the choices he made did help lead to Jack's death.
(Like Jake himself and many others have said before, once Jack was sure that Ennis would never really be with him, that's when he began to die.)

Far as what Ennis tried to believe (and this tears at me, too, that he isn't sure) - he could only try to believe that, given the chance in November, he would finally have said yes to Jack ("Jack, I swear.."),
and saved Jack, and himself.

Dammit.  I'm tearing up at my desk at work *again*.  Let's hope no one comes by in the next minute or two telling me I forgot to use the new cover page on my expense report...

That puts a new spin on "Jack, I swear..." I'd never considered, Lynn.  As the line goes, it's sad, and wonderful.  But mostly sad.    

[Jeff Wrangler]

Phew!  That's a sad take on it, Jeff, but it does make sense to me.  Ennis didn't have a lot of self confidence, and I could see him worrying that Jack had found someone more compatible, maybe more 'fun' (as he said to Cassie) to share his life with. 

Ennis had to know that Jack loved him, but a big part of Ennis's grief must have centered on the fact that he drove Jack to do what he did by his refusal to give Jack what he needed.  He tried to believe that he had been right to refuse, but in the end, he knew that that refusal had cost them both dearly. 

It is sad. But what I try to believe, for my own sake as well as Ennis's, is that he came to terms with the open space and the uncertainty. We don't know how much time has elapsed between the end of the story and the prologue that now begins the text. But we do know that in the prologue, Ennis awoke that morning "suffused with happiness" because Jack had been in his dream. I find that hopeful, and on that I base my hope.

[whiteoutofthemoon]

Ah yes, a very profound line in the short story.....   to me, just like "I swear", it is open to many interpretations, and I think Proulx intended it that way...The whole sadness of the line is not the what he knew or what he believed, but the words "some open space", conjuring up images of the huge and cold, lonely plain, one that Ennis will have to spend the rest of his life on, alone.     This brings up a literary technique (i forget what it's called), where the lines may not necessarily make sense, but rather it's the feeling the words themselves give that is significant.   I read that line and I think of hopelessness, regret, loneliness, longing for something that was within his grasp, but is now lost forever.     Wow. 

In other words...."it could have been".

[serious crayons]

I've always assumed it had something to do with the way Jack died, but I also had a niggling feeling that there's more to it. All of the interpretations here fit the sentence so well that now I'm thinking it's a theme woven throughout the story, applying to many different issues that provoked emotional conflict for Ennis.

Another example: There was a space between what he knew (that he was gay) and what he tried to believe (that he wasn't).

Apparently, for Ennis, having a space between what he knows and what he tries to believe is a common occurrence. (Maybe it is for all of us! But that's too deep a philosophical question for me to try to answer sitting at a computer in a public library.)

[Brown Eyes]

Hey there Mel!  Great thread.  Isn't that one of the most beautiful lines?  Lovely. 

I think it's a combination of what you (Mel) posted in the first post (about his love for Jack and the extent to which he understands his own sexuality and identity) and the confusion over the manner of Jack's death.  Maybe this statement, which is at its essence a statement about ambiguity as such, can relate back to all sorts of unresolved aspects of their story.  Maybe it can also apply to the question of the way they left things following the argument scene.  They parted ways with a hug and "torqued things back" almost to the status quo, but here at BetterMost and probably in the heads of both Jack and Ennis there were concerns about the state of the relationship.  Did Jack really finally decide to quit Ennis?  What about that other fellow that Jack invited to ranch-up with him (or so Old Man Twist says...)?  Having that final postcard returned to Ennis without an answer leaves the question open of what would have happened to them next (in November would Ennis finally have taken a step towards committing to Jack?... Would Jack have broken up with Ennis?).  These will remain unresolved things in Ennis head. 

So, on this topic, the open space is about what the state of their relationship. But he knew for sure that Jack loved him desperately and he also loved Jack desperately (the shirts are concrete, visible evidence of their true love). And, what I think he tried to believe is that he would have tried to make things work with Jack if November had ever come.
 

[silkncense]

Ah yes, a very profound line in the short story.....   to me, just like "I swear", it is open to many interpretations, and I think Proulx intended it that way...

Maybe this statement, which is at its essence a statement about ambiguity as such, can relate back to all sorts of unresolved aspects of their story.

How lucky that we've all been awakened to the many possible interpretations of Annie's writing - that we are not simply left to what we 'knew'.

[stevenedel]

"Some open space" - as Mel said, what he knew and what he tried to believe didn't add up. Ennis knew that had he made different choices earlier on, things might have turned out much better than they did. What he tries to believe is, well, "two men living together, no way" - he tries to believe that it couldn't have been any other way, no matter what. Put differently, he knew the problem could have been fixed, but he tries to believe his only option was to stand it.

Just my take on that sentence, which remains heart-wrenching regardless how you interpret it (and probably, because it can be interpreted in so many different ways).

[dly64]

Hi Mel -

You can blame Jake_Twist (Jane) for getting me on to this thread. She brought this to my attention and I find this thread really interesting.

I've focussed my understanding narrowly and a little bit differently from what I've read above, not really looking at in relation to the manner of Jack's death. I wish I had the story in front of me, but I never carry it with me to work, so here's my reading:

What Ennis knew, thanks to old man Twist, was that shortly before Jack died he had been talking about bringing someone other than Ennis up to Lightning Flat.

What Ennis tried to believe, since the shirts were still in the closet, was that Jack had not quit him and still loved him.

But Jack was dead, he could never really know, so he had to stand it. Poor Ennis. ... 

Jeff - you and I see eye to eye in many ways. I think I see your viewpoint as similar to mine. This just expands your thought a little further ….

The screenplay mentions that "Ennis looks out the window, at the great bleakness of the vast northern plains."  To me, this symbolizes Ennis’ life without Jack. Ennis has lost the one man he loved. The only person he will ever love. His life is like the "bleak plain" ... colorless, empty. When he was with Jack, their love was like the mountain … high, beautiful, pure. With Jack (in the mountains) Ennis could be invisible … he could be himself without any societal constraints and probing eyes. Below … he was “nothing … nowhere ....” 

[Jeff Wrangler]

The screenplay mentions that "Ennis looks out the window, at the great bleakness of the vast northern plains."  To me, this symbolizes Ennis’ life without Jack. Ennis has lost the one man he loved. The only person he will ever love. His life is like the "bleak plain" ... colorless, empty. When he was with Jack, their love was like the mountain … high, beautiful, pure. With Jack (in the mountains) Ennis could be invisible … he could be himself without any societal constraints and probing eyes. Below … he was “nothing … nowhere ....” 

Tell you what, I may be alone in this, but I have a problem with that final shot out the window of Ennis's trailer--well, actually I don't. What I'm saying is, for me that shot as we see it doesn't go with what the screenplay says about "the great bleakness of the vast northern plains."

Why? Whatever that green stuff is that we see blowin' in the wind across the road from Ennis's trailer, whether it be some type of grain or just some kind of tall prairie grass, still, it's green, it's alive, it's growing. For me that's a hopeful image. For bleakness I require brown, dried, dead vegetation.

I'm supposing that combined with/coming after Ennis's about-face agreement to go to Alma, Jr.,'s wedding, that final shot of the living, growing vegetation contributed to why I always left the theater feeling uplifted and hopeful. So if that final shot is intended to convey bleakness and despair, it doesn't work for me.

[dly64]

Tell you what, I may be alone in this, but I have a problem with that final shot out the window of Ennis's trailer--well, actually I don't. What I'm saying is, for me that shot as we see it doesn't go with what the screenplay says about "the great bleakness of the vast northern plains."

Why? Whatever that green stuff is that we see blowin' in the wind across the road from Ennis's trailer, whether it be some type of grain or just some kind of tall prairie grass, still, it's green, it's alive, it's growing. For me that's a hopeful image. For bleakness I require brown, dried, dead vegetation.

I'm supposing that combined with/coming after Ennis's about-face agreement to go to Alma, Jr.,'s wedding, that final shot of the living, growing vegetation contributed to why I always left the theater feeling uplifted and hopeful. So if that final shot is intended to convey bleakness and despair, it doesn't work for me.

I see what you are saying … maybe you can surmise that the green does offer some essence of hope. I can agree with that. Most of the shot, however, is brown, it is bleak. I foresee Ennis’ future life as being relatively empty and lonely without Jack. I doubt that he will ever have another relationship (with a man or a woman). 

Here is an interview with Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana in regards to the end of the film:

McMurtry: I don’t think Ennis would kill himself.
Ossana: He’s too tough. That would be a sign of weakness, and it would leave a memory of him as being weak, and I don’t think he would want that. But I do think that Ennis knows that people probably know that he’s homosexual, and emotionally [at the end of the film] I think he makes a tiny bit of progress, because he agrees to attend Alma Jr.’s wedding. Finally he compromises—
McMurtry: And doesn’t disappoint a woman.
Ossana: It’s the first time in the film that he doesn’t disappoint someone, male or female. It’s a tiny baby step, but he does it. I just don’t know how much [more] he’s capable of changing. I think if anything, he might become even more homophobic and bitter because of what he did, what he gave up, what he lost, what he’ll never have.

[urlhttp://www.advocate.com/currentstory1_w.asp?id=25277&page=[/url]

So, IMO, there is some hope. But, mostly he will internalize his loss and live a relatively lonely and empty life. (Whew …. I am a bundle of cheer, ain’t I?)

[Jeff Wrangler]

I see what you are saying … maybe you can surmise that the green does offer some essence of hope. I can agree with that. Most of the shot, however, is brown, it is bleak. I foresee Ennis’ future life as being relatively empty and lonely without Jack. I doubt that he will ever have another relationship (with a man or a woman). 

Here is an interview with Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana in regards to the end of the film:

McMurtry: I don’t think Ennis would kill himself.
Ossana: He’s too tough. That would be a sign of weakness, and it would leave a memory of him as being weak, and I don’t think he would want that. But I do think that Ennis knows that people probably know that he’s homosexual, and emotionally [at the end of the film] I think he makes a tiny bit of progress, because he agrees to attend Alma Jr.’s wedding. Finally he compromises—
McMurtry: And doesn’t disappoint a woman.
Ossana: It’s the first time in the film that he doesn’t disappoint someone, male or female. It’s a tiny baby step, but he does it. I just don’t know how much [more] he’s capable of changing. I think if anything, he might become even more homophobic and bitter because of what he did, what he gave up, what he lost, what he’ll never have.

[urlhttp://www.advocate.com/currentstory1_w.asp?id=25277&page=[/url]

So, IMO, there is some hope. But, mostly he will internalize his loss and live a relatively lonely and empty life. (Whew …. I am a bundle of cheer, ain’t I?)

Well, I didn't mean to overemphasize the hopefulness, and perhaps that's how it came across. I'm not left with any great hope that Ennis is going to change radically. I only meant to convey that for me the ending is not despairing.

I have to wonder, too. whether that "tiny baby step" that Diana Ossana speaks of isn't, in relative terms, a huge leap for Ennis.

[Michel4410]

I think it simply means that there was a wide gap between what he knew in his heart and what he tried to believe that he should conform to the societal norms and keep the status quo in the relationship with Jack. He could not break out the self-imposed shell and he realizes that he must endure the consequence of his decision ( if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it).

[nakymaton]

Hi Michel4410 (can I just call you Michel?), and welcome.

I'm not responding to all the individual responses because... well, because I don't think there's a right answer. I think it's fascinating, though, to see that different people see the same things (particularly about Jack's death) on opposite sides of the know/try to believe divide.

I think both the story and the movie leave a lot of open space for the readers and viewers, between what we're shown and what we all end up trying to believe. And it's fascinating to see all the different things that people find in that open space.

(Whether the flat green fields are a symbol of hope or despair is pretty interesting. Now I want to know where you're from originally, Jeff -- whether there's a correlation between feelings about particular landscapes and the impression people have of that last view out the window. I don't find the view to be unusually depressing, myself, but I also don't find it to be inspiring... not like, say, the backdrop behind the lakeside argument. Guh. Now that's a landscape. *swoons*)

[welliwont]

Ossana: .... But I do think that Ennis knows that people probably know that he’s homosexual,...

http://www.advocate.com/currentstory1_w.asp?id=25277&page=

Diane, I think we should kidnap Diana Ossama and make her parse that there statement; explain, dissect, justify, support, interpret, etc that bold conclusion!  Waddya think, could she do it?

J

[serious crayons]

For me that's a hopeful image. For bleakness I require brown, dried, dead vegetation.

I'm supposing that combined with/coming after Ennis's about-face agreement to go to Alma, Jr.,'s wedding, that final shot of the living, growing vegetation contributed to why I always left the theater feeling uplifted and hopeful. So if that final shot is intended to convey bleakness and despair, it doesn't work for me.

What, you want the entire audience to walk out of the theater feeling suicidal? 

Jeff, I do think the green vegetation implies a hint of hope. As Mel implies, not so much hope as if it had been a mountainous landscape. The mountains -- and all they represent -- are gone for Ennis now. The final shot joins Jack's blue with Ennis' tan and green between them. It could be read as hopeful (green) or despairing (flat). But it's not hard for me to believe that Ang may be more of an optimist than Annie and would prefer to end the movie on a subtly upbeat note.

 

[Jeff Wrangler]

a subtly upbeat note.

For me, that's it exactly, Katherine: "subtly upbeat."

(Nakymaton, I grew up in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, traditionally a great farming county that bills itself as "the Garden Spot of America," the heart of the traditional "Pennsylvania Dutch Country," where Harrison Ford's Witness was filmed.)

[Penthesilea]

I'm astonished how many different interpretations people have for the last sentece of the book.
To be honest, I'm puzzled that there are different interpretations at all. Guess I shouldn't be (puzzled), since I'm aware of the ambiguity of both, book and movie.

I see the last sentece in connection with the two before:

"The spoon handle was the kind that could be used as a tire iron. And he would wake sometimes in grief, sometimes with the old sense of joy and release; the pillows sometimes wet, sometimes the sheets."

Both senteces refer to the mystery of Jack's death. Spoon handels which transform into tire irons in his dreams. "sometimes in grief": bad dreams about Jack being beaten to death (wet pillows). "sometimes with the old sense of joy and release": good (and hot) dreams about Jack (wet sheets).

So for me the last sentence is about Jack's death. Ennis knows that it has been murder, but what he wants to believe it that it was an accident.

[Mikaela]

Reading through the various replies on this thread has been very rewarding. There's always more insight to be had with this group of people! 


I reached the conclusion some time ago that I was unable to decide with certainty exactly what the last sentence means. As much as anything, it seems to serve as a reminder that we can never truly know what's hidden in the innermost heart of another human being. Despite having come to know Ennis well through this story, despite having followed him through the fear and pain and sorrow and joy and love of those 20 years, - his thoughts are still his own and sometimes indecipherable, to some extent he's still inscrutable, still an enigma. I wonder if Annie Proulx herself had one specific meaning and one meaning only read into that last line; - however that is, it seems certain she wanted to make it ambiguous to the readers to interpret in whatever way makes the most sense to them.


What seems certain to me though is that the brief paragraph preceding it covers the whole of Jack and Ennis's time together. The beans and spoon handles of Brokeback, the plans and dreams that came to nothing, the shadow of the tire iron that loomed over their relationship the entire life because of its significance to Ennis, the love, the sex, the grief and tears. That it's cast in "cartoon shape(s) and lurid colours that (give) the dreams a flavour of comic obscenity" seems very harsh, entirely unsentimental, and pointing to a great deal of tragic irony in Ennis's situation at the end of the story. And *that* makes me think that if I had to choose *one* meaning for the last sentence, I think it is the following:

Ennis *knows* without a doubt, in his heart, what Jack meant to him - that he loved him. But he doesn't know that Jack ever fully knew or was made to understand how deeply Ennis loved him, - the way Ennis never spoke up, the way he behaved, from punching Jack out to omitting any verbal response to the "Sometimes I miss you so much....."  to blaming Jack for making him a "noone". Ennis can only try to believe that despite his silences and fears and his constant holding back, what he did do was still enough, so that Jack *did* at one point experience the confirmation of Ennis's love for him without any doubts lingering and lurking, *did* believe all that Ennis "swears" to Jack after Jack is gone. It seems to me one of the worst regrets Ennis has to live with is that he never managed to tell Jack his feelings right out, loud and clear. Despite their relationship taking up and shaping Ennis's entire life - he never said the words, except indirectly, and as a part of a bitter accusation. Sure, he has to try to believe and hope that what he did do was somehow still enough - but there's a huge space of doubt between that and certainty.

[stevenedel]

A lot of interesting viewpoints - and that's only one sentence!

Thinking about it, I still feel though that interpretations focussing on the manner of Jack's death or his probable relationship with Randall are too topical. It is the final sentence of the story, and my guess is that it sums up its entire essence, i.e.: the conflict between the knowledge of deep love, and the belief that it is impossible to turn this particular love into a living reality. There is some space between those because the strength of their love as such might have made possible the 'sweet life' Jack dreamed of.

(Though frankly I should add I'm not all that optimistic about the way things would have worked out had Jack and Ennis set up house together).

[stevenedel]

(Hey! My tenth post! I'm no longer a tourist!) 

[serious crayons]

Ennis *knows* without a doubt, in his heart, what Jack meant to him - that he loved him. But he doesn't know that Jack ever fully knew or was made to understand how deeply Ennis loved him, - the way Ennis never spoke up, the way he behaved, from punching Jack out to omitting any verbal response to the "Sometimes I miss you so much....."  to blaming Jack for making him a "noone". Ennis can only try to believe that despite his silences and fears and his constant holding back, what he did do was still enough, so that Jack *did* at one point experience the confirmation of Ennis's love for him without any doubts lingering and lurking, *did* believe all that Ennis "swears" to Jack after Jack is gone. It seems to me one of the worst regrets Ennis has to live with is that he never managed to tell Jack his feelings right out, loud and clear. Despite their relationship taking up and shaping Ennis's entire life - he never said the words, except indirectly, and as a part of a bitter accusation. Sure, he has to try to believe and hope that what he did do was somehow still enough - but there's a huge space of doubt between that and certainty.

Well put, Mikaela. I think this, too. In fact, this is the way I interpreted the sentence the first time I read the story. I'd forgotten about that.

I wonder if Annie Proulx herself had one specific meaning and one meaning only read into that last line;

I don't think she did. I think she purposely left it vague, applicable to any number of story elements. Partly because, as we all have demonstrated, it IS applicable a lot of different ways. And partly because by doing so she draws us in and forces us to try to  figure out what's going on in Ennis' head and heart. Just like in the movie, where it would be easy enough to show Jack watching Ennis bathing -- that would make his thoughts clear -- it's more effective to show Jack concentrating on the potato peeling, because although ultimately the message is the same we have to take a more active role, have to try to figure him out for ourselves.

As you say, Mikaela, fully knowing someone's thoughts is impossible. Yet that never stops us from trying.

[nakymaton]

What seems certain to me though is that the brief paragraph preceding it covers the whole of Jack and Ennis's time together. The beans and spoon handles of Brokeback, the plans and dreams that came to nothing, the shadow of the tire iron that loomed over their relationship the entire life because of its significance to Ennis, the love, the sex, the grief and tears. That it's cast in "cartoon shape(s) and lurid colours that (give) the dreams a flavour of comic obscenity" seems very harsh, entirely unsentimental, and pointing to a great deal of tragic irony in Ennis's situation at the end of the story.

Oh, wow. I honestly hadn't known what to make of the spoon handle transforming into a tire iron in Ennis's dreams. It seemed like it should seem like a threat... but why the spoon handle? And why the "comic obscenity"? It was such a bizarre image that I sort of skipped over it, putting it aside as one of those weird things that happens in dreams. But it's not the sort of detail that would be thrown in randomly. In the descriptions, in particular, every word counts, and maybe the words that don't make sense on the first reading mean more than all the others.

And this:

Ennis *knows* without a doubt, in his heart, what Jack meant to him - that he loved him. But he doesn't know that Jack ever fully knew or was made to understand how deeply Ennis loved him, - the way Ennis never spoke up, the way he behaved, from punching Jack out to omitting any verbal response to the "Sometimes I miss you so much....."  to blaming Jack for making him a "noone". Ennis can only try to believe that despite his silences and fears and his constant holding back, what he did do was still enough, so that Jack *did* at one point experience the confirmation of Ennis's love for him without any doubts lingering and lurking, *did* believe all that Ennis "swears" to Jack after Jack is gone.

Ok, I swore I was just going to read and not agree or disagree with anyone here, but this is brilliant.

Though I don't believe that Ennis wished he had said "I love you" to Jack. But that's at least in part because I think the words "I love you" have become meaningless and hollow from overuse in cheesy, shallow movies and fiction, and I think that they are more often meant when they aren't said.

[Jeff Wrangler]

(Hey! My tenth post! I'm no longer a tourist!) 

Congratulations and Welcome! We can always use new ranch hands! (And a very good post it was, too!) 

[serious crayons]

Though I don't believe that Ennis wished he had said "I love you" to Jack. But that's at least in part because I think the words "I love you" have become meaningless and hollow from overuse in cheesy, shallow movies and fiction, and I think that they are more often meant when they aren't said.

I agree, totally, that the words have become meaningless and hollow in movies. I don't think he necessarily meant to say those exact words so much as he wished he'd made sure Jack knew that he'd felt them.

Which is why, to drag in one of my favorite topics, I don't mind the idea of him saying it in the closet to the empty shirts. I know some people are repelled by this possibility -- over and above the question of whether they can detect him saying it or not -- because they see it as some maudlin capitulation to cinematic convention.

I don't, for two reasons: 1) If he does say it, it's not done in some big dramatic cliched sappy way, but in a way that's indescernible to 99.9999999 .... percent of the viewing audience, including those who've seen the movie dozens of times, and 2) If he does say it, he's saying it to an empty shirt, after years of not responding adequately to Jack's endearments, underscoring the hopelessness of his ever fully expressing his feelings to Jack. How poignant is that?

[nakymaton]

I know some people are repelled by this possibility -- over and above the question of whether they can detect him saying it or not -- because they see it as some maudlin capitulation to cinematic convention.

"Some people" = me. I'm not gonna give on this one, I'm afraid... it hits something too ingrained in me. In all seriousness, if I ever come to hear the "I love you," I may never be able to watch the movie again. I ain't foolin'. I still can't watch some of my other favorite movies because other fans have shown me things in them that I didn't want to see; I don't want to do that with this movie.

(Let be, let be.)

[serious crayons]

if I ever come to hear the "I love you," I may never be able to watch the movie again. I ain't foolin'.

(Let be, let be.)

OK, I'm sorry, Mel. I would never want to have any hand in that.  I promise to drop the subject -- with you, anyway -- from now on. (And I'd advise you to avert your eyes and pull out your headphone jack during the half-second between when he smells the shirts and when the scene shifts back to Mrs. Twist in the kitchen.)

[welliwont]

"Some people" = me. I'm not gonna give on this one, I'm afraid... it hits something too ingrained in me. In all seriousness, if I ever come to hear the "I love you," I may never be able to watch the movie again. I ain't foolin'. I still can't watch some of my other favorite movies because other fans have shown me things in them that I didn't want to see; I don't want to do that with this movie.

(Let be, let be.)

Not to worry Mel, there are very few people who actually hear that phantom line.  I think that some people hear what they want to hear, and that's fine, but it is highly improbable IMO for lots of reasons, that Ennis would ever say that line to shirts.  It was not in his character to do so, IMO.  And I think a lot of Brokies are in agreement here.

J

[dly64]

I agree, totally, that the words have become meaningless and hollow in movies. I don't think he necessarily meant to say those exact words so much as he wished he'd made sure Jack knew that he'd felt them.

Which is why, to drag in one of my favorite topics, I don't mind the idea of him saying it in the closet to the empty shirts. I know some people are repelled by this possibility -- over and above the question of whether they can detect him saying it or not -- because they see it as some maudlin capitulation to cinematic convention.

I don't, for two reasons: 1) If he does say it, it's not done in some big dramatic clichéd sappy way, but in a way that's indiscernible to 99.9999999 .... percent of the viewing audience, including those who've seen the movie dozens of times, and 2) If he does say it, he's saying it to an empty shirt, after years of not responding adequately to Jack's endearments, underscoring the hopelessness of his ever fully expressing his feelings to Jack. How poignant is that?

You did drag up one of those touchy subjects …didn't ya?!!  I am one who absolutely thinks that it is out of the character of Ennis to say “I love you” to the shirts. I have seen this film too many times to count and I have turned up the volume and watched his lips … he doesn’t say it! (I am sure there are those who think just as strongly as I that he did say it.)  IMO, Ennis says “love” one time in the entire film and that is when he asks Alma, Jr. if “this Kurt fella, he loves you?” That is a poignant moment because he realizes what could have been and what will never be. I see in Ennis’ expression a bitter longing, knowing that his one chance of happiness is gone.

Ennis *knows* without a doubt, in his heart, what Jack meant to him - that he loved him. But he doesn't know that Jack ever fully knew or was made to understand how deeply Ennis loved him, - the way Ennis never spoke up, the way he behaved, from punching Jack out to omitting any verbal response to the "Sometimes I miss you so much....."  to blaming Jack for making him a "no one". Ennis can only try to believe that despite his silences and fears and his constant holding back, what he did do was still enough, so that Jack *did* at one point experience the confirmation of Ennis's love for him without any doubts lingering and lurking, *did* believe all that Ennis "swears" to Jack after Jack is gone. It seems to me one of the worst regrets Ennis has to live with is that he never managed to tell Jack his feelings right out, loud and clear. Despite their relationship taking up and shaping Ennis's entire life - he never said the words, except indirectly, and as a part of a bitter accusation. Sure, he has to try to believe and hope that what he did do was somehow still enough - but there's a huge space of doubt between that and certainty.

I agree with what you are saying  …. Ennis doesn’t know if Jack realized how deeply he was loved. I think Ennis was also reeling from the possibility that Jack was going to take up with another man. Had Jack lived, would have Jack ended their relationship? Was Ennis’ lack of commitment (i.e. his unwillingness to make room for Jack in his ordinary life) too frustrating for Jack? This is something Ennis will never know … I am unsure if the audience is meant to know that, either. The romantic in me believes strongly that Jack did know that Ennis loved him and that Ennis understood Jack like no one else and vice versa. I also think that Ennis had hoped to take Jack’s ashes up on BBM so that when he (Ennis) died, he could have his own ashes spread there, too … and they could be together. (I know, I know … that is a bit of a pipe dream, but I enjoy thinking it anyway).

I'm astonished how many different interpretations people have for the last sentence of the book.
To be honest, I'm puzzled that there are different interpretations at all. Guess I shouldn't be (puzzled), since I'm aware of the ambiguity of both, book and movie.

I see the last sentence in connection with the two before:

"The spoon handle was the kind that could be used as a tire iron. And he would wake sometimes in grief, sometimes with the old sense of joy and release; the pillows sometimes wet, sometimes the sheets."

Both sentences refer to the mystery of Jack's death. Spoon handles which transform into tire irons in his dreams. "sometimes in grief": bad dreams about Jack being beaten to death (wet pillows). "sometimes with the old sense of joy and release": good (and hot) dreams about Jack (wet sheets).

So for me the last sentence is about Jack's death. Ennis knows that it has been murder, but what he wants to believe it that it was an accident.

I agree with some of what you are saying … but not everything. I am glad you quoted that line from the book … It is very telling. The primary thing I differ with is that “Ennis knows that it has been murder …” The film, screenplay and book are all ambiguous on this point. Ennis believes it has been murder … he doesn’t know. His first thought is that Jack was killed with a tire iron because that is how Earl was murdered. The very last paragraph in the short story is telling (and it also fits in with the “open space” outside the window.

“There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can’t fix it, you’ve got to stand it.”

[Brown Eyes]

Just bumping a good old thread!
 

[welliwont]

bump for more discussion,   

[dly64]

I am one who absolutely thinks that it is out of the character of Ennis to say “I love you” to the shirts. I have seen this film too many times to count and I have turned up the volume and watched his lips … he doesn’t say it! (I am sure there are those who think just as strongly as I that he did say it.)  IMO, Ennis says “love” one time in the entire film and that is when he asks Alma, Jr. if “this Kurt fella, he loves you?” That is a poignant moment because he realizes what could have been and what will never be. I see in Ennis’ expression a bitter longing, knowing that his one chance of happiness is gone.

Okay, okay!! I am re-reading my post. What a difference a couple of months make! I have now heard the "I love you" since I was given some idea as to where it was said. Lordy, I hate to say ... "you told me so ...,"  but you did! 

[serious crayons]

Okay, okay!! I am re-reading my post. What a difference a couple of months make! I have now heard the "I love you" since I was given some idea as to where it was said. Lordy, I hate to say ... "you told me so ...,"  but you did! 

Funny, Diane! I saw this thread last night and noticed your post and remembered that you had changed your mind. That's good -- you're open minded.

I think most of us would be surprised if we looked at some of our earlier posts and realized how much we've changed since then.

[Brown Eyes]

Yeah, it truly is amazing how the level of discussion around here has changed.  I've even noticed that when newbies appear they often already are well, well prepared to jump into discussions at a really complicated level.  I think this has a lot to do with the amount of time the movie's been around and the number of places (I mean discussion boards...) where the film can really be analyzed in-depth.  Lately for me, the sad aspects of the movie are looming really large.  It's hard to believe but I think the movie is even sadder to me now than it was the first few times I saw it.
 

[alec716]

Lately for me, the sad aspects of the movie are looming really large.  It's hard to believe but I think the movie is even sadder to me now than it was the first few times I saw it.
 

Yup, Amanda, we are on the same wavelength!  Maybe, at least for me, it's for what feels like a very strange reason... we've "known" Jack and Ennis longer, for quite a while now, and it sorta feels like it's time for them to have a fishin' trip... and we know that won't happen, even in fantasy.  (no offense to fanfic authors or devotees who are smart enough to create a rosier reality!  ).  Odd to say, but for me, it's almost like the time lags between their visits and then the untimely end of the relationship are getting more real and easier to FEEL with the passage of real time.  Just a thought, my rambling for tonight!  I am not even sure that I am expressing it well.  This whole experience is new for me, as I have NEVER felt anything so strong for or about fictional characters before (sorry, was the use of the word "fictional" a spoiler?  )

[dly64]

Odd to say, but for me, it's almost like the time lags between their visits and then the untimely end of the relationship are getting more real and easier to FEEL with the passage of real time.  Just a thought, my rambling for tonight!  I am not even sure that I am expressing it well.  This whole experience is new for me, as I have NEVER felt anything so strong for or about fictional characters before (sorry, was the use of the word "fictional" a spoiler?  )

Alec – it is interesting that you mention this. I wrote a note earlier about what I have experienced with BBM. I have never felt the way I have with this film. It does  feel as though Jack and Ennis are real people. I always hope for a better outcome knowing that it will never happen. Because I feel like I know  these guys, I hurt every time they hurt. My heart breaks for them. Anyway …. I can relate to your POV!

[serious crayons]

(sorry, was the use of the word "fictional" a spoiler?  )

That's OK, Alec. We know you just forgot the quotation marks the first time.

we've "known" Jack and Ennis longer, for quite a while now

Good point! The first time or two I saw it, I empathized with them, of course, was devastated and all, but felt some distance -- they were still characters in a movie. Now, all these months later, they're like family. Yeah, I suppose you could call them "fictional." But watching the movie for me now is like coming home, after some time spent in a strange city. They're like really good friends I haven't seen for a while. (Though for some people they must be more like roommates!)

Odd to say, but for me, it's almost like the time lags between their visits and then the untimely end of the relationship are getting more real and easier to FEEL with the passage of real time.

Every time I watch it, I get caught by surprise at the post-divorce scene. Because that, for me, is where the story starts to really go downhill emotionally. When it comes, I always think, "Noooo! Not already! It's too soon! For god's sake, give them a little more time!"

[dly64]

Every time I watch it, I get caught by surprise at the post-divorce scene. Because that, for me, is where the story starts to really go downhill emotionally. When it comes, I always think, "Noooo! Not already! It's too soon! For god's sake, give them a little more time!"

I never thought of it in those terms ... but I completely agree. It is that blasted divorce scene that really changes the trajectory of their whole relationship. 

[Scott6373]

I never thought of it in those terms ... but I completely agree. It is that blasted divorce scene that really changes the trajectory of their whole relationship. 

And I agree with you.  To me, that was the time that dreamy eyed Jack finally let the dream go.  When he did, he realized that he had nothing at all, and he couldn't satisfy himself with the married suburban life he had created.

[Momof2]

I am so attached to them it is like they are part of my family.  I think the post divorce scene is the hardest for me.  My kids were in the bed the other night and I put my movie in.  I have NEVER not watched the whole thing.  For some reason that night I turned it off after the reunion scene.  I could not bare watching the two of them lose each other.  I guess I thought if I turned it off at this happy point then they would still be together, happy.  This is sad.  I am a grown woman.  Damn you BrokeBack and thank God for you.

[Penthesilea]

Every time I watch it, I get caught by surprise at the post-divorce scene. Because that, for me, is where the story starts to really go downhill emotionally. When it comes, I always think, "Noooo! Not already! It's too soon! For god's sake, give them a little more time!"

Once more, I'm with you here. I always think: from now on, there's only direction everything goes: down.
One time I stopped the movie in the court room scene, because I just couldn't bear it at that day.

This is sad.  I am a grown woman.  Damn you BrokeBack and thank God for you.

I'm grown woman too. But I also have days when I just can't bear it. Aditionally to stopping at the scene in the court room, I also stopped twice when they come down the mountain.
I have also another stategy: after watching the whole movie, including the credits to the very last (and crying all the time), sometimes I watch the first 10 or 15 minutes of the movie again. Et voilà, here they are again: young, full of life and so wonderful alive. It helps, at least for me.

Oh my, pretty crazy  But they feel so damn real. Like others have said: like close friends, like people you've known a long time and known very well.
Weeks ago I was at a handball tournament with my husband and children. A big crowd of people, among them a bunch of friends and fellow supporting parents whose children play toghether with mine for years now. And suddenly I sat among these people and thought about Ennis Del Mar. How he would feel in such a group of people. (Awkward; he wouldn't like it, having to be social and all, chit-chatting here and there and so on  ) I catch myself thinking about Ennis or Jack, how they would feel or behave in situations of  real life. Now is this crazy or just another sign of Brokeback-fever?

It eases my mind that Annie Proulx herself and Ang Lee seem to have felt similar: I love the way Annie Proulx descibes in her essay "Getting movied" how these characters came to life for her, and the fact that Ang Lee thanked Ennis and Jack (not Heath and Jake or Annie) in his acceptence speech at the oscars.
BTW I read this snippet about Ang Lee somewhere here on BetterMost, but don't know who said it.

[Mikaela]

And suddenly I sat among these people and thought about Ennis Del Mar. How he would feel in such a group of people. (Awkward; he wouldn't like it, having to be social and all, chit-chatting here and there and so on  ) I catch myself thinking about Ennis or Jack, how they would feel or behave in situations of  real life. Now is this crazy or just another sign of Brokeback-fever?

I do this too, I've caught myself at it several times. Thinking wbout Ennis and Jack and what they'd do if they were present or in a similar situation. It doesn't feel crazy, but a bit lonely, because I don't feel I can voice those thoughts out loud. It's good to have all of you and this board where I can go on about the two of them.

It eases my mind that Annie Proulx herself and Ang Lee seem to have felt similar: I love the way Annie Proulx descibes in her essay "Getting movied" how these characters came to life for her, and the fact that Ang Lee thanked Ennis and Jack (not Heath and Jake or Annie) in his acceptence speech at the oscars.

Exactly! Me too, me too.

[serious crayons]

When I used to see the movie in the theater, I would come out onto the crowded sidewalk (out on the pavement!) and think, the people I spent the past 134 minutes with feel more real than these people who are here around me.

[jpwagoneer1964]

To me Heath and Jake will be Ennis and Jack.

[moremojo]

Here's my take:

There was some open space...
--There was some room to forget, for just a moment, the reality of what Ennis's life (more specifically, his life without Jack) had become. The use of the metaphor of 'open space' is so apposite for a ranch hand born, bred, and likely to die under the big skies of the Western lands.

...between what he knew...
--What Ennis knew is that Jack was dead and, to his mind, lost to him forever.

...and what he tried to believe...
--Ennis must have hoped, in fleeting, elusive moments, to hear Jack's voice, to see a new postcard from him, to feel his hand surprise him in the sweetest of ways. He saw Jack in his dreams, and believed enough in the verisimilitude of the vision to awaken sometime with the sheets wet--how saddened he must have immediately become to remember that it was, after all, only a dream.

[serious crayons]

between what he knew[/i]...
--What Ennis knew is that Jack was dead and, to his mind, lost to him forever.

...and what he tried to believe...
--Ennis must have hoped, in fleeting, elusive moments, to hear Jack's voice, to see a new postcard from him, to feel his hand surprise him in the sweetest of ways.

So well put, Scott. I do think the line refers to Ennis' feelings about Jack's death, but I've always interpreted it in terms of the tire iron question. This way is much more poignant. And, I think, undeniably true of every grieving loved one.

[nakymaton]

...between what he knew...
--What Ennis knew is that Jack was dead and, to his mind, lost to him forever.

...and what he tried to believe...
--Ennis must have hoped, in fleeting, elusive moments, to hear Jack's voice, to see a new postcard from him, to feel his hand surprise him in the sweetest of ways. He saw Jack in his dreams, and believed enough in the verisimilitude of the vision to awaken sometime with the sheets wet--how saddened he must have immediately become to remember that it was, after all, only a dream.

 

Yes.

[j.U.d.E.]

As far as what Ennis tried to believe (and this tears at me, too, that he isn't sure) - he could only try to believe that, given the chance in November, he would finally have said yes to Jack ("Jack, I swear.."), and saved Jack, and himself.

You think? It would have saved Jack and himself? I mean, had he said yes, he might then, have been exposed to the same 'ending' as Jack (if you go with the theory that Jack was murdered).

Now that I think of it.. as much as Ennis knew he loved Jack and had never loved another person quite as much as Jack and never would again, maybe he was even more homophobic and so damn deep in denial of his own real sentiments, that he didn't say yes, because he had more fear of ending like Earl, than showing love towards Jack? It's quite a depressing thought really - Ennis basically denying his feelings and thus 'letting' Jack die, in order to save his own life. Was he more afraid of dying than showing his affection to Jack and the world..?

 j. U. d. E.

[serious crayons]

Now that I think of it.. as much as Ennis knew he loved Jack and had never loved another person quite as much as Jack and never would again, maybe he was even more homophobic and so damn deep in denial of his own real sentiments, that he didn't say yes, because he had more fear of ending like Earl, than showing love towards Jack? It's quite a depressing thought really - Ennis basically denying his feelings and thus 'letting' Jack die, in order to save his own life. Was he more afraid of dying than showing his affection to Jack and the world..?

Hi Jude! Nice to see you around these parts!

I don't think Ennis' fear of Earl's fate was the only reason to keep from shacking up with Jack -- maybe didn't even top the list. I think it was more a generalized fear and shame and belief that homosexuality is "wrong."

On the bright (well, sort of brighter) side is that, to the fear of physical danger was a factor, I don't think Ennis applied it just to himself. He had showed himself to be protective of Jack and/or willing to suffer on Jack's behalf (switching jobs, ordering soup, killing the elk). I think Ennis was as concerned about Jack's safety as his own.

[brach]

I think you guys are leaving out an important part of the quote: "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could
be done about it, and if you can’t fix it you’ve got to stand it." 

"Open space" means simply "discrepancy." "Open space" does not mean "the reader is free to interpret this quote any which way he chooses."

Examples of things the quote refers to: (1) Ennis may have tried to believe Jack's death was an accident, but he wasn't sure which way it was, "the tire iron or a real accident." (2) Ennis may have tried to believe Jack would not have really quit him for that "ranch neighbor a his from down in Texas", but he could never be sure because Jack had died before they could talk about it.

The significance of the shirts:  Jack had probably put the shirts in his Lightning Flat closet shortly after he returned from Brokeback in August 1963, and he very likely forgot about them years later, or else he would have kept them with him at his home in Chlidress.  The reason Jack stole Ennis's shirt in the first place was because he knew Ennis would be marrying Alma and believed he'd probably never see Ennis again. In any case, Jack did not plant the shirts in his boyhood closet in Lightning Flat for Ennis to discover 20 years later. Those shirts were Jack's way of memorialiazing the "dozy embrace" and how he felt about Ennis when they split up back in 1963.

20 years after Brokeback, Jack had surely come to accept that Ennis would never live with him:   

"Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed
happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that
Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see or feel that it was
Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they’d never got much farther than that. Let be, let be."

[Ellemeno]

Welcome to BetterMost, brach, you clearly know the BBM short story!  We're a friendly, non-adversarial lot here, for the most part, and I hope you find many more threads to interest you.  I look forward to your next posts - I bet you have a lot of insights to share.

[Momof2]

I think Ennis wanted to beleive that Jack died the way Lureen tells him.  I think he honestly thinks it was the tire iron.  I think my mind has changed alot since reading Ennis and Ellery.  I think that Ennis knew Jack was murdered but did not want to accept the fact he was killed because he loved another man.  Sometimes it is easier to just be in the "open space".  It is easier to deal with than reality.

[brach]

I think Ennis wanted to beleive that Jack died the way Lureen tells him.  I think he honestly thinks it was the tire iron.  I think my mind has changed alot since reading Ennis and Ellery.  I think that Ennis knew Jack was murdered but did not want to accept the fact he was killed because he loved another man.  Sometimes it is easier to just be in the "open space".  It is easier to deal with than reality.

"There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can’t fix it you’ve got to stand it. " In other words, there were things Ennis tried to believe but could never verify to a certainty because there no way to do so.

It's not that Ennis tried to believe things that were unrealistic, but that there was no way for him to be certain because he simply didn't have sufficient information to verify those things to a certainty, one way or another.

Jack father tells Ennis, "this spring [Jack’s] got another one’s goin a come up here with him and build a place and help run the ranch, some ranch neighbor a his from down
in Texas. He’s goin a split up with his wife and come back here.”

So Ennis now knew that Jack had been seeing another man. Curiously, Ennis's (primary) conclusion from this revelation from Jack's father was not that Jack had quit him for another man, but that Jack had been "ranching up" with another man and murdered because of it: We read, "So now he knew it had been the tire iron. " Of course, Ennis doesn't actually know any such thing. Ennis doesn't know any more about the circumstances of Jack's death than the reader. But Ennis had been set up since childhood to believe that the "tire iron" was the probable fate for guys that "ranched together."

The written story leaves little room for the reader to doubt that Jack's death was a real accident: We read, "Ennis didn’t know about the accident for months until his postcard to Jack saying that November still looked like the first chance came back stamped DECEASED.” It was only Ennis that didn't know for sure: "He didn’t know which way it was, the tire iron or a real accident, blood choking down Jack’s throat and nobody to turn him over. Under the wind drone he heard steel slamming off bone, the hollow chatter of a settling tire rim." Note that the story describes Ennis imagining a scene of Jack being struck with tire rim, not with a tire iron.

But the movie assaults the viewer with a heavy-handed image of Jack being struck with a tire iron. It's no wonder many viewers walk away with the conclusion that the image of Jack being struck with a tire iron was a news flash rather than an image, as Ang Lee explained, "of what Ennis was feeling at the moment." In an interview, Larry McMurtry acknowledged that Jack's death could have happened the way Lureen described it, and Diana Ossana admits that they tell people they simply don't know how Jack died. Annie Proulx said the movie's version of how Jack died, whether by tire iron or tire rim, was ambiguous to her.

[mlewisusc]

yet another "bump to find" post .

[BBM-Cat]

"There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe..." 

Great postings on this topic. I certainly have not read the book to obtain deeper insight (although I have just ordered it!)

I just want to add that on a cognitive level, what Ennis is experiencing is called "cognitive dissonance" - the psychological tension or anxiety (or "open space") created between two incompatible thoughts or beliefs, or even between an incompatible thought and a behavior. One of the ways to reduce the tension (or "fix it") is to change your perceptions, perhaps by looking at opposing and rigidly held beliefs or thoughts in a more balanced way.  Since Ennis could not resolve (or "fix") many of the polarized thoughts or beliefs that he held, he had to continue to live in a perpetual state of tension/anxiety ("stand it").

If this line specifically pertains to his thoughts about Jack's death, then his long-held, irrational belief based upon chronic anxiety/fear (i.e. 'queer' = murder) holds firm in the face of any true or contradictory evidence (i.e. real accident).

[nakymaton]

  Cool, BBM-Cat.

So how long can a person go, living with that sort of cognitive dissonance? Twenty years? Forever?

[BBM-Cat]

Cool, BBM-Cat.

So how long can a person go, living with that sort of cognitive dissonance? Twenty years? Forever?

Great question - yes, I think Ennis is a prime example of that. I think we all live with some cognitive dissonance (anxiety) - either we try to do something about it - try to reduce the anxiety by altering our beliefs/thoughts (healthiest way of coping) - or use other, perhaps less healthy ways of coping like avoiding (denial) or rationalization  - through less positive ways of coping the inaccurate perceptions/irrational beliefs are still there and will resurface = chronic anxiety/turmoil.

I am just so glad to have finally gotten to see BBM and again, I haven't read the book yet but cannot wait to develop a further understanding the characters. This forum is just wonderful - I've spent so many hours just reading - and I have a lot of catching up to do! Take Care.

[Lynne]

Very cool, BBM-Cat!

I don't think I've ever heard the 'open space between' interpreted as cognitive dissonnance, but it makes sense now when I read how you explain it.  It's somewhat about what Ennis needs to believe to remain functional himself.  Nice observation!

And I agree that the short-story is a 'must-have.'  I've never known a story and subsequent movie to complement the other so perfectly.

-Lynne
 

--Modified for typos..-Lynne

[BBM-Cat]

Yes Lynne - that was really well put - believing the alternative is too anxiety provoking for Ennis. I see him as forever immobilized after Jack's death because of the perpetual conflict between his thoughts, beliefs, and feelings. I can't wait to actually read the short story.

Very cool, BBM-Cat!

I don't think I've ever heard the 'open space between' interpreted as cognitive dissonnance, but it makes sense now when I read how you explain it.  It's somewhat about what Ennis needs to believe to remain functional himself.  Nice observation!

And I agree that the short-story is a 'must-have.'  I've never known a story and subsequent movie to complement the other so perfectly.

-Lynne
 

[Brown Eyes]

Bump!
 

[Brown Eyes]

A couple months later... Bumping again!
 

[HerrKaiser]

Thanks for the bump! I think the congitive dissonance theory may be correct, but as a huge Ennis supporter in all his affectations, i am not sure he truly had CD to a level that actually caused him to immobilzie. yes, Ennis definitely saw his life on two worlds, but so do many of us. for a variety of reasons. Ennis dealt well with his 60s and 70s life in the middle of nowhere and his situation. I admire his fortitude and ability to, reasonably effectively, satisfy conflicting needs from people he cared about, all the time keeping things relatively in order and at peace.

for sure the dissonance would have been higher early on. After Jack passed, I think Ennis had absolutely clear vision on who he was/is, what Jack meant to him, what his family had meant to him, and had his life in order. This came from deep, inward thinking; and Ennis was a thinking person which he gets little credit for. "still water runs deep". That surely fits Ennis.

[brokebackjack]

This is a very good thread, why the hell don't people post in it?

Exactly the sort of thread that we need.

The closing lines of Brokeback mountain are my signature on another forum. I believe those lines and refuse to change them there.. On BM, the signature is the response which developed after exposure to BBM and its fans.

By the way, the night before it went to press AP called her editor at something like 2AM to CHANGE her closing line. This is the result!

Now if they had managed to NOT forget the damned Prologue when they printed it [that's the explanation and it's true, they FORGOT TO PUT IT IN!!!] I wonder how much greater the impact would have been....

[Front-Ranger]

I think the reason why we don't post more in threads like these is that...there's some open space between what we think up and what we manage to write down in these little windows!!

[Cameron]

 

But I do love this line. It is my favorite of the story by far.  Maybe of most of the quotes in the movie too. 
I think this line applies not only to Jack and Ennis but to everyone in their own lives. 

[brokebackjack]

naw Lee, BM could do as good or better then  DC with these element and scene  threads, I have no doubt of that at all. We're going to do a book on the analysis we did at DC, it starts this summer after the Beyond BB book is in the stores. To NOT do it would be criminal, we did  analysis that is freakin brilliant--- from British Housewives, British professors, American writers, American grannies, NZ mothers,Aussie buds of heath, dimwits like ME. Two year project. Evan Annie proulx popped in to look at the infamous Did Jack Quit Ennis thread roflmao.{NOQUIT!!!]

NOBODY can tell me that the people I see posting on BM are incapable of it, I've seen the minds here, looked at threads nobody has posted in for 6-7 months. It's here, we're here and just....waiting.

[serious crayons]

I think this line applies not only to Jack and Ennis but to everyone in their own lives. 

So absolutely true, Cameron! 

[Lynne]

But I do love this line. It is my favorite of the story by far.  Maybe of most of the quotes in the movie too. 
I think this line applies not only to Jack and Ennis but to everyone in their own lives. 

It surely does apply to our own lives, Cameron, and as you say most of the others resonate with us as some level too - they must, or we wouldn't be here.  For me, it's as simple as that.

This 'open space' quote, though, means worlds to me.  I use it frequently to describe what I think of as my life as it is and my life as I want it to be.  I also see it in terms of the disparity in myself at 19 versus myself at 38 - there's a lot of open space brought about in the intervening years.

To me, 'finishing the story' means to try to reduce the disparities I see between my ideals and reality.  I doubt it's possible 100%, but I do think that when I get a glimpse of myself at peace - or as close to peace as I'm capable - there is alignment between what I know and what I want to believe.  So that is my goal. 

[brokebackjack]

Lynne, that is beautiful. thanks!

[Brown Eyes]

Bump.

[loneleeb3]

Somebody is treasure huntin today and finding some jewels! 
I'll have to write onthis when I get home and can collect me thoughts!

[Brown Eyes]

Somebody is treasure huntin today and finding some jewels! 
I'll have to write onthis when I get home and can collect me thoughts!

 

Yes, there are so many great old threads buried deeper in this forum.  It's fun to explore beyond page 1 sometimes to get reminded of some of these fun old discussions! 

[Artiste]

More please...

[retropian]

"There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe..." 

I just want to add that on a cognitive level, what Ennis is experiencing is called "cognitive dissonance" - the psychological tension or anxiety (or "open space") created between two incompatible thoughts or beliefs, or even between an incompatible thought and a behavior. One of the ways to reduce the tension (or "fix it") is to change your perceptions, perhaps by looking at opposing and rigidly held beliefs or thoughts in a more balanced way.  Since Ennis could not resolve (or "fix") many of the polarized thoughts or beliefs that he held, he had to continue to live in a perpetual state of tension/anxiety ("stand it").

If this line specifically pertains to his thoughts about Jack's death, then his long-held, irrational belief based upon chronic anxiety/fear (i.e. 'queer' = murder) holds firm in the face of any true or contradictory evidence (i.e. real accident).

Thanks for bumping this thread. I have to agree with BBM-Cat's idea that Ennis is experiencing "cognitive dissonance". IMO, what Ennis knew is that he was queer, what he tried to believe is that he was not. Or, what he knew was that he loved a man, what he tried to believe is that he had not. The ending of the short story is bleak indeed. The film version is more hopeful in that it hints at a growing self acceptance within Ennis.

Secondarily, I think that line in the story is symbolised by the title "Brokeback Mountain". I posted this elsewhere, but my thought is that a Brokeback Mountain is also known as a Swayback mountain; two roughly twin peaks joined by a ridge giving one the impression of a swayback horse. I think what Ennis knew, and what he wanted to believe are represented by the two peaks, joined, but always to be separate.