Author Topic: "Jack, I swear..." What do you think Ennis meant by that?  (Read 240910 times)

Offline Artiste

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,998
Re: "Jack, I swear..." What do you think Ennis meant by that?
« Reply #320 on: December 29, 2007, 07:55:59 pm »
Wow, how interesting are all comments and wishes!! Thanks!!

I am immediately without a word or words to answer: Jack, I swear... Maybe because I had thought of many other ways! Hopefully, these will come back to me... especially since I wrote some to remind me.

Rayn, I agree with you that Ennis would not have used the word gay! I grew up as Ennis and Jack!! However, maybe the word queer?? Which word queer I do not accept then nor now!! I prefer always gay!! That word  gay colours us gay men, somewhat!! As to: we are hopeful for freedom and love!! Why be sad always nor not hopeful for joys to live as normals, as we are gay men and ladies?? What do you think? And you all??

As to answer: Jack I swear... I do not dare mention my momentary thought about it!! Since, good gladings for the Happy Holidays are here!!

Could Ennis still have secrets and at what cost?? Does he maybe secretly want to tell them or one or some now... to Jack?? By this expression: Jack, I swear...

Hugs!!   Happy Gay Holidays full of Joys to you and to all on Bettermost and on Earth!!



Offline Rayn

  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 520
  • I'm also on FaceBook under Rayn Roberts
Re: "Jack, I swear..." What do you think Ennis meant by that?
« Reply #321 on: December 30, 2007, 05:30:54 am »
"However, maybe the word queer?? Which word queer I do not accept then nor now!! I prefer always gay!!  Why be sad always nor not hopeful for joys to live as normals, as we are gay men and ladies?? What do you think? And you all??"

 Artiste
 

      Every adult has the right to their own choice of words to describe or define who they are, don't they?   I'd say, that's part of what self determination is about; wouldn't you, Artiste?    That 's perhaps why you call yourself Artiste and not Artist?  Don't you prefer being known as Artiste

     There are some men who actually prefer to call themselves QUEER, did you know that? Didn't you ever hear of Queer Nation?   And you cannot assume that because a person interacts with the Gay Community that they are immediately and undoubtedly GAY.  There are all kinds of  people who exist in and out of the community who are not Gay.  If I interact with Native Americans a lot, does that make me a Native America?   If I often attend Church with my Baptist friends, does it make me Baptist?  Perhaps I am just an open minded Episcopalian, huh? I live among Asian people, but I'm haven't started turning into "an Asian".   

    Also, Artiste, you could consider the fact that even Heterosexual people do not fit neatly into one sexual category, behavior or pattern.  Diversity is the rule of Nature, and yes, there is a place for conformity too, but human beings, like other life forms on earth, don't always fit into the categories that the Human Mind attempts to impose.  Reality is about change against a changeless background.   But I don't want to get too philosophical here, let's stay on topic and look at what is one of the defining moments of the movie.   When Ennis said, "You know I ain't Queer."  Jack replied, "Me neither."  I respect them as adults and leave them the freedom to define themselves.   End of question and of discussion:  it's not up to me or you to determine how other people define themselves.  When it comes to how other people define their own personal lives, it is best to respect what they decide for themselves, don't you think?   Otherswise, one could be seen as trying to impose their will or way on other people and that's not polite.  No one has the right to do that, do they?

     Respect for individual choices is the hallmark of true freedom.  Live and let live, yes?  If more people everywhere in the world, in your country and mine, could believe and do that, the world would be far more peaceful.   And for the record Artiste, I support the freedom of all people to find happiness in a marriage, whether with the opposite or the same sex.  To me, that's a matter, not so much of Gay or Lesbian Rights, but of Human Rights.   Wouldn't you agree, Artiste?   

PEACE
Rayn
 


HAPPY NEW YEAR!



Offline Artiste

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,998
Re: "Jack, I swear..." What do you think Ennis meant by that?
« Reply #322 on: December 30, 2007, 01:49:21 pm »
Well said Rayn!


May I say:
To me: A word is like history!! That is needed!!

To me: A word is also a presence!! Like a present!!

I do not know why some persons prefer to use the word queer!! Qu'est-ce sera, sera; whatever will be, will be as the song says !!

To those who prefer to call themselves queer ... do so, as I am open to that! I will never acept it for myself... for many reasons!! One reason is for me: is that I consider gay life normal!! I find nothing queer about it... even if of course some things about my gay living is queer but not in the negative sense!! Hard for me to explain. Why do I survive as a gay man?? I want to live!! To be effective... as a person in an normal society as a gay man (among mainly straights since society is that)!! 


My purpose... my destiny, among getting out like a star in the world among stars!!

Indeed, you are right that I prefer being called Artiste!! For many reasons... one being that it brings about the subject of art right away as my main interest!!

My priority is to live... to be fruitful: my goal to make it better for gay men as well as for all others!!

You say:
    Also, Artiste, you could consider the fact that even Heterosexual people do not fit neatly into one sexual category, behavior or pattern.  Diversity is the rule of Nature, and yes, there is a place for conformity too, but human beings, like other life forms on earth, don't always fit into the categories

...

And I totally agree with you as you likely noted by my responses on Bettermost, plus in my paintings I created!!
.....

Respect... is another word. But am puzzled about that one!
...

The main message is too human rights for me!! I lost my house giving it to a criminal (passing himself as a Chritian) who nearly murdered me sending 4 to kill me and burn me in my home! And yet I still believe in human rights!! Another such person as an MD (likely islamic) in a hospital, it seems to me, murdered my lover because he was a christian or a jew!! And I still believe in human rights!! I wonder where mine are... and that of my deceased lover!! ?? Criminals have rights, more that decent persons?? I am wondering in our democratic societies!! I need wish bone, no I do not say a woman on TV, I need backbone!! How?

I do not want to put up nor needlessly fight with, more such violence, since I am passionate about life!! I do not murder!! What is my call and yours??

Anyway! Thanks for your comments which I accept! And await your news with open arms,

hugs!!

Since I do not steal my destiny, prefering to steel it with my passion and direction for love, gay living everyday, may I wish you and to all Happy Gay Holidays daily with gladness!!

Offline Penthesilea

  • Town Administration
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,585
Re: "Jack, I swear..." What do you think Ennis meant by that?
« Reply #323 on: December 30, 2007, 03:18:16 pm »

Let's get back on topic:


I've never been able to put into words what Ennis meant [IMO] and that is perfect. neither could he. But I think he meant all the above, wasn't angry, didn't even think about randall, the Mexican's, none of them.

He was expressing love.

And the author would have hummed All You Need Is Love. I'm serious. Ennis would have simply loved.

We complicate it all with bullshit words and emotions he wouldn't have bothered to feel, emotions not in the screenplay or the short story.

he would have loved. It's so immense and so awesome he couldn't find anything but "Jack, I swear..."

I agree and disagree with you at the same time  :).

I agree that when you go right to the core of it, "Jack, I swear...." expresses love. Simple and yet immense and awesome.

But I don't agree that all our interpretations are bullshit which complicates the matter unneccessarily. I think they are indeed valid. There's much more to the story and movie than what is spelled out in screenplay or SS. That's why we're still discussing it, isn't it?

And I'm positive that there was more on Ennis' mind in this exact moment than love. Remember the context of the scene. Alma Jr. has just announced her wedding, she's nineteen, she can do what she wants (but Ennis and Jack couldn't when they were nineteen), she's about to make the commitment Ennis was never able to make to Jack.
I think the similarities and also the huge differences between the situations are also on Ennis's mind and expressed with "Jack, I swear..." Not vocalized and spelled out like I did it, and probably not as concious, but they were there.

There were so many emotions and thoughts twirling on Ennis's mind that he was unable to express them, the above mentioned only being part of it.

Offline Rayn

  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 520
  • I'm also on FaceBook under Rayn Roberts
Re: "Jack, I swear..." What do you think Ennis meant by that?
« Reply #324 on: December 30, 2007, 05:07:37 pm »

1. But I don't agree that all our interpretations are bullshit which complicates the matter unneccessarily.

Me Neither.

2. I think they are indeed valid. 

Me too.    


Thanks,
RAYN     ;)   

 


Offline brokebackjack

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 817
Re: "Jack, I swear..." What do you think Ennis meant by that?
« Reply #325 on: December 31, 2007, 08:47:43 pm »


Chrissy when I said bullshit, what I meant was this>>>>> I've seen what amounts to a graduate thesis from some people about 'Jack, I swear....' Those things rather flip me out lolol, they always seem to be the work of some over-zealous wordy romantic

Ennis was a simple guy with enormous complexities. He wouldn't have understood, and IMO would undoubtedly have shrugged off all the complex interpretations which some use to describe 'Jack, I swear...' with thousands of misapplied words. I agree with you and Rayn both. Love was paramount, especially in the context of the timing of "Jack, I swear..."; he said it right after Juniour told him about her impending marriage, right after he had  asked  'This Kurt fella...does he love you?'

I think  he used those words to express every regret he had, every lost moment of 20 years, every sad decision, every denial he had ever made. It was a laconic lament with more impact and feeling  expressed in 3 words then most people could express with 3 thousand.
"I couldn't stand it no more so i fixed it"

Offline Artiste

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,998
Re: "Jack, I swear..." What do you think Ennis meant by that?
« Reply #326 on: December 31, 2007, 11:45:45 pm »
Wow brokenbackjack!

I suppose that we do answer that Ennis Jack, I swear as romantic expressions.

We also could do so otherwise? But do not dare!

Hard to say?

Hugs!! Happy Gay New 2008 Year to you and to all with all the desires you want!!

Offline Rayn

  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 520
  • I'm also on FaceBook under Rayn Roberts
Re: "Jack, I swear..." What do you think Ennis meant by that?
« Reply #327 on: January 01, 2008, 02:40:34 am »

Chrissy when I said bullshit, what I meant was this>>>>> I've seen what amounts to a graduate thesis from some people about 'Jack, I swear....' Those things rather flip me out lolol, they always seem to be the work of some over-zealous wordy romantic

Ennis was a simple guy with enormous complexities. He wouldn't have understood, and IMO would undoubtedly have shrugged off all the complex interpretations which some use to describe 'Jack, I swear...' with thousands of misapplied words. I agree with you and Rayn both. Love was paramount, especially in the context of the timing of "Jack, I swear..."; he said it right after Juniour told him about her impending marriage, right after he had  asked  'This Kurt fella...does he love you?'

I think  he used those words to express every regret he had, every lost moment of 20 years, every sad decision, every denial he had ever made. It was a laconic lament with more impact and feeling  expressed in 3 words then most people could express with 3 thousand.


Excellent entry, brokebackjack, very valid and, IMO, well said and true.  However, as I mentioned before, what any one person thinks & enters here is as valid as any other's in the end because every person has his or her own conclusions and interpretations about what "Jack, I swear..." means.   I think it's true when you say, "Ennis was a simple guy with enormous complexities.."  That statement can be applied to his "laconic lament" (a brilliant phrase, BTW) i.e. it was a simple statement with enormous complexities, which allows, entertains in fact, all kinds of comments, feelings, conclusions from all kinds of people, doesn't it?

I say again, that's part of the fun and interest in this thread.  Considering the many responses to it, the thread also calls for a good amount of tolerance and respect for the conclusions of others.  Though some of the entries may " ... seem to be the work of some overzealous wordy romantics", they are the feelings and ideas of other Brokies ( people ) and could be respected even if one doesn't like them.  In my experience, one of the worst things to do is hurt the feelings of a romantic person.  Some romantics may be "over zealous and wordy" to you, but some are the most sensitive people too. Couldn't we take more care or at least be respectful of them if only for the sake of "community".

Personally, through what has been shared on this thread by realists and romantics, I have come to the conclusion that the meaning of the statement, "Jack, I swear..." is really open ended.  That is a conclusion supported by Annie Proux and one of the main reasons, among others, for the Bettermost Community and website: "It is my feeling that a story is not finished until it is read, and that the reader finishes it through his or her life experience, prejudices, world view and thoughts." - Annie Proux   Readers/Movie goers will conclude what "Jack, I swear..." means through their own life experience, prejudices, world view and thoughts.

That might even be considered the final and definitive conclusion for this thread, though it doesn't have to be taken that way.  I'd like to leave it open ended and let it go on just for the sheer fun of interaction on it.  On that note, I wish you a Happy New Year!  See you again sometime on Bettemost.com.

« Last Edit: January 01, 2008, 09:54:40 am by Rayn »

Offline brokebackjack

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 817
Re: "Jack, I swear..." What do you think Ennis meant by that?
« Reply #328 on: January 01, 2008, 07:19:57 am »
Rayn, really, that was SO well done. The whole Brokeback experience was created for the reader to make conclusions from his or her own experience. The whole short story is like that. Everyone who reads it has a different and very valid conclusion formed from their own lives, their own hearts.That quality of the SS was kept intact when Ang Lee made the film.

Having said that, I still feel  a LOT of the scholarly critique and analysis done on Brokeback's short story form, literary construction and style is nothing less then maddening. It can be even more verbose and baffling when the film is discussed. From the way you responded, I'm pretty sure you too  read the 'scholarly articles' in the BBM issue of the magazine Film Quarterly. So I will use that as my example even though they didn't deal with 'Jack, I swear...'  You and I are on the same wave length, which makes me suspect you might have  found yourself wondering whether the learned contributors to that issue saw the same film the rest of us did lol!!!!!!!

I had to consciously remind myself that the magazine's content mattered far less then this simple fact: Quarterly's treatment of BBM formally added it to the short list of legendary films, barely 2 years after its theatrical release. For a LOT  of that content---let alone some of the conclusions--  left Brokies  [who generally know more about the film then the contributors did] scratching their heads. Those analytic pieces  tended to miss the point.  With great erudition, they went on and on, using too many words to illustrate startling conclusions which I doubt either Annie Proulx of Ang Lee would have ever thought of. I mean it IS possible lol, but it was hard to see why they would CARE. The meaning of the tale, the ability to extrapolate one's own experience onto the film and draw your own conclusions, was rather lost in the treatment......

While interesting, it was also something of a classic and beside-the-point self indulgence  which ended by obscuring what they tried to illuminate.

So too, with 'Jack, I swear...'

Last spring I read this extraordinary critique somewhere---maybe Lee {FrontRanger} might have it in her files?? I'm not sure, but think it might have been written by someone in the UK, honestly don't remember. I think it is about 10-12 pages long, and may very well have BEEN someone's thesis lol.

The damned thesis went on and on, mixing misplaced romanticism [as opposed to romantic feeling!!!!!] with what the author thought was impartial analysis. Well, it wasn't.  He used thousands of words to describe the meaning of THREE. In the process, he lost sight of the forest>>>>>>>>leaving the reader with a couple of mishapen trees instead of  healthy woods. If anybody has that article, or knows who wrote it, could they post it here? The damned thing was awesome in its ability to confuse the reader; the writer somehow managed to GUSH in all the wrong places.

I just have no patience with the sort of obscurantist 'scholarship' which pulls everything off track. You, me, artiste, ellemeno, David---any member of this forum could have done it better. Why? We may disagree, which is natural; yet we all look towards the common goal of genuine understanding.

Too many of these formal analysiii <sp??> couldn't care less about THAT, while THAT is what we all treasure.

That stuff really irritates me lol.

and HAPPY NEW YEAR! :)
"I couldn't stand it no more so i fixed it"

Offline Rayn

  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 520
  • I'm also on FaceBook under Rayn Roberts
Re: "Jack, I swear..." What do you think Ennis meant by that?
« Reply #329 on: January 01, 2008, 10:36:42 am »
Hello brokebackjack,

     Yeah, I understand what you mean, so I usually read such entries until I can stand it and since I know I can't fix it, I stop, ask myself if I really want to continue reading something I'm losing interest in, then follow where my heart and mind direct.  Sometimes that means reading on, sometimes it means moving on without a second thought.  I'm unable to read very quickly, so I can't always read every long entry on Bettermost.  Only short entries or very good writing get my time and interest.  But I do know what you're saying.   I try to decide as quickly as possible what I want to spend time on then read on or stop without much comment on why I didn't like someone else's entry.  That works for me.   

    I love writing too much not to give it my full attention, so if I offer a long entry, I labor over it, edit and revise until I have what I consider clarity, and of course, writing with an economy of words or what I call "trimming the fat from the page" is important.   I can't help it, I'm an English teacher and a writer myself.  Writing and speakings are essential parts of who I am and how I make a living. 

    Thanks much for your good comments on my last entry.  I enjoyed yours too.     :)

Peace,
Rayn