Author Topic: Life and this movie are messy  (Read 80308 times)

Offline ednbarby

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,586
Re: Life and this movie are messy
« Reply #70 on: February 19, 2007, 11:21:41 am »
It was a matter of making choices as to what they wanted to do. If Ang Lee et al. had wanted a limited run in small theatres they would have done it a different way and the film would have been more 'purist' but I doubt it would be so extensively discussed and I'm not sure that anyone would be saying they were inspired or their lives changed by it.

Excellent point, Marge.  Had I read the story first, I'd have envisioned very different people as those characters.  Neither of them would have been handsome, per ce, but they would have had a certain winsomeness that would justify them both being able to marry attractive women and in one case, an attractive woman with a lot of money.  I agree that had the filmmakers gone with relative unknowns and been more true to the story in that sense, we first of all would not be here right now having this discussion.  Nor would it have gotten any notice from any awards-giving entity except for film festivals and perhaps the Independent Spirit Awards, and thus people would have never talked about it like they have let alone still be talking about it.

I saw a lovely, lovely film a couple weeks ago called "Sweet Land."  It was a first-time film from the director and had two relative unknowns playing the leads.  And while it had a few names with some indie cred like Alan Cumming, Ned Beatty, Lois Smith, and Alex Kingston in peripheral roles, it was never going to be a theater blockbuster.  That's a shame because it was a really lovely film and a beautiful love story.  This movie would have had the same fate had Ang Lee gone with lesser-known and perhaps less universally attractive actors.  I'm thankful that he/they didn't.  And though I can't speak for her, I believe Annie is, too.
No more beans!

Offline Penthesilea

  • Town Administration
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,745
Re: Life and this movie are messy
« Reply #71 on: February 19, 2007, 11:42:06 am »

I thought it was farting??

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Okay, belly scratching comes third place  ;)

Quote
Looking forward to seeing your new topic, Chrissi!!

I didn't open a new topic. I put it in the "Jack and the wind"-thread. Here: http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,1097.msg157925.html#msg157925

Offline HerrKaiser

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,708
Re: Life and this movie are messy
« Reply #72 on: February 19, 2007, 04:02:00 pm »
Excellent point, Marge.  Had I read the story first, I'd have envisioned very different people as those characters.  Neither of them would have been handsome, per ce, but they would have had a certain winsomeness that would justify them both being able to marry attractive women and in one case, an attractive woman with a lot of money.  I agree that had the filmmakers gone with relative unknowns and been more true to the story in that sense, we first of all would not be here right now having this discussion.  Nor would it have gotten any notice from any awards-giving entity except for film festivals and perhaps the Independent Spirit Awards, and thus people would have never talked about it like they have let alone still be talking about it.



I think you and marge are making, indirectly, the point I am suggesting...that to try to make direct comparisons between the book and the film can be muttled because of the effect of the VERY attractive film version of Ennis and Jack vs the not so versions in the book. Their attractiveness in the book was empathetic, sympathitic, and somewhat pathetic, but not romantic and erotic per se. the film was hollywoodized with the two of the keys to successful film making--great looking people and audience appeal.

Offline Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 30,290
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: Life and this movie are messy
« Reply #73 on: March 18, 2007, 04:04:07 pm »
Let's talk about guts, shall we? When Jack cuts loose in the rodeo/fuck-ups scene, he says, "I'm spurrin his guts out!" (meaning the horse's) But, sadly, we see a portent of his future fate due to not spurs but a tire iron  :'(

And Ennis, for his part, talks of the gut cramps he had after he and Jack parted, thinking he musta ate something bad in DuBois. But instead he had something very very good with de boi and he let it go.  :-\  ;)
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Marge_Innavera

  • Guest
Re: Life and this movie are messy
« Reply #74 on: March 29, 2007, 06:04:38 pm »
I think you and marge are making, indirectly, the point I am suggesting...that to try to make direct comparisons between the book and the film can be muttled because of the effect of the VERY attractive film version of Ennis and Jack vs the not so versions in the book. Their attractiveness in the book was empathetic, sympathitic, and somewhat pathetic, but not romantic and erotic per se. the film was hollywoodized with the two of the keys to successful film making--great looking people and audience appeal.

They are no less sympathetic for being physically attractive. The term "hollywoodized" isn't a magic incantation, believe it or not.

Marge_Innavera

  • Guest
Re: Life and this movie are messy
« Reply #75 on: March 29, 2007, 06:10:47 pm »
Excellent point, Marge.  Had I read the story first, I'd have envisioned very different people as those characters.  Neither of them would have been handsome, per ce, but they would have had a certain winsomeness that would justify them both being able to marry attractive women and in one case, an attractive woman with a lot of money.  I agree that had the filmmakers gone with relative unknowns and been more true to the story in that sense, we first of all would not be here right now having this discussion.  Nor would it have gotten any notice from any awards-giving entity except for film festivals and perhaps the Independent Spirit Awards, and thus people would have never talked about it like they have let alone still be talking about it.

That's true. It would have been an obscure film that would have changed few, if anyone's lives. But in the eyes of many, it would have retained its moral purity for not being "Hollywoodized."   8)

As much as I liked the story, it did not have the effect on me that the film did. That's no disrespect to the story, but that's how it happened.  And I have to wonder if a penniless man who looked like Jack is described in the book could have married into money; it would have been a double whammy.  Puts me in mind of the classic WKRP In Cincinnatti exchange between part-time-receptionist-full-time-courtesan Jennifer and a scruffy older man:

SOM: I'm a lot younger than I look!
Jennifer: Are you any richer than you look?

Offline Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 30,290
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: Life and this movie are messy
« Reply #76 on: April 10, 2008, 08:54:37 pm »
Let's talk about guts, shall we? When Jack cuts loose in the rodeo/fuck-ups scene, he says, "I'm spurrin his guts out!" (meaning the horse's) But, sadly, we see a portent of his future fate due to not spurs but a tire iron  :'(

And Ennis, for his part, talks of the gut cramps he had after he and Jack parted, thinking he musta ate something bad in DuBois. But instead he had something very very good with de boi and he let it go.  :-\  ;)


Two other instances where guts are mentioned: At the Siesta Motel, Jack says that his new father-in-law hates his guts. I wonder if the mention of guts reminds Ennis of the grisly sight he saw on the morning after Tent Scene 1, when he left the dogs to babysit the sheep too long. And it's a sure thing that seeing the eviscerated sheep certainly gave him a flash back to the time he was nine years old...
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: Life and this movie are messy
« Reply #77 on: April 10, 2008, 09:15:00 pm »
Two other instances where guts are mentioned: At the Siesta Motel, Jack says that his new father-in-law hates his guts. I wonder if the mention of guts reminds Ennis of the grisly sight he saw on the morning after Tent Scene 1, when he left the dogs to babysit the sheep too long. And it's a sure thing that seeing the eviscerated sheep certainly gave him a flash back to the time he was nine years old...


Yes, I think there's a big equation made between the mutilated sheep (a victim of "predator loss") after TS1 and Jack and Earl.  It's interesting that the language about "guts" exists to such a strong degree in the film and the story too.  I'd never noticed that before!
 :D

But, I've always thought that an equation was set up between the vulnerable sheep and gay men (i.e. Jack and Earl) in BBM.  I think the film tries to visually set this equation between Jack and sheep up through the quick jump between the dead sheep and Jack's naked, shivering body by the stream.  And, also things like the nice scene of Jack holding the sheep in his lap trying to get something out of its hoof.  Ennis is just sitting in the background watching the flock... which in some way includes Jack here due to his proximity and involvement with the sheep.  Anyway, Earl is clearly a victim of "predator loss" (the gang of murderers).  And, Ennis believes that this is Jack's fate too.  And, the reason that Jack dies is that Ennis wasn't there to protect him (too far away... not looking after his "sheep" properly).  Ennis believes himself to be the protector and I think that comes out very clearly in the language used by Proulx to describe Ennis's anger that no one was there to roll Jack over following the attack/accident.  I also think that Ennis's feeling of responsibility towards sheep in the sense that he sees himself as the protector... comes in the statement when he says "we're supposed to guard the sheep not eat them."

 
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 30,290
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: Life and this movie are messy
« Reply #78 on: April 10, 2008, 11:54:05 pm »
an equation was set up between the vulnerable sheep and gay men (i.e. Jack and Earl) in BBM.  I think the film tries to visually set this equation between Jack and sheep up through the quick jump between the dead sheep and Jack's naked, shivering body by the stream.  And, also things like the nice scene of Jack holding the sheep in his lap trying to get something out of its hoof.  Ennis is just sitting in the background watching the flock... which in some way includes Jack here due to his proximity and involvement with the sheep.  Anyway, Earl is clearly a victim of "predator loss" (the gang of murderers).  And, Ennis believes that this is Jack's fate too.  And, the reason that Jack dies is that Ennis wasn't there to protect him (too far away... not looking after his "sheep" properly).  Ennis believes himself to be the protector and I think that comes out very clearly in the language used by Proulx to describe Ennis's anger that no one was there to roll Jack over following the attack/accident.  I also think that Ennis's feeling of responsibility towards sheep in the sense that he sees himself as the protector... comes in the statement when he says "we're supposed to guard the sheep not eat them."
So many insights here, my friend! You are in fine form tonite! I was thinking of the sheep in a rather narrow-minded religious way but you have opened my mind to a new interpretation!
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,712
Re: Life and this movie are messy
« Reply #79 on: April 11, 2008, 01:09:47 am »
But, I've always thought that an equation was set up between the vulnerable sheep and gay men (i.e. Jack and Earl) in BBM.  I think the film tries to visually set this equation between Jack and sheep up through the quick jump between the dead sheep and Jack's naked, shivering body by the stream.  And, also things like the nice scene of Jack holding the sheep in his lap trying to get something out of its hoof.  Ennis is just sitting in the background watching the flock... which in some way includes Jack here due to his proximity and involvement with the sheep.  Anyway, Earl is clearly a victim of "predator loss" (the gang of murderers).  And, Ennis believes that this is Jack's fate too.  And, the reason that Jack dies is that Ennis wasn't there to protect him (too far away... not looking after his "sheep" properly).  Ennis believes himself to be the protector and I think that comes out very clearly in the language used by Proulx to describe Ennis's anger that no one was there to roll Jack over following the attack/accident.  I also think that Ennis's feeling of responsibility towards sheep in the sense that he sees himself as the protector... comes in the statement when he says "we're supposed to guard the sheep not eat them."

So many insights here, my friend! You are in fine form tonite! I was thinking of the sheep in a rather narrow-minded religious way but you have opened my mind to a new interpretation!

Absolutely, A, a really cool post. And like all great insights, it made me think about the movie in a new way, especially something the line about "bad predator loss."

You know how we think about that trailer scene as being a wedding ceremony, with Aguirre being the preacher/God? Well, it just suddenly occurred to me (as maybe it already had to others) that Aguirre also roughly establishes the form the rest of their lives will take: they'll live separately, on the QT.

They'll get together for a couple of high altitude fucks breakfast and dinner, but they'll sleep with the sheep (pretend to follow society's rules) hunderd percent, no fire, don't leave no sign, roll up that tent every morning case the Forest Service snoops around -- that is, pretend not to be doing what they're doing in case the people on the pavement snoop around.

Maybe this is all obvious to other people, but it's the first time I've thought about the wedding/trailer scene in quite this way. I've concentrated on the certificate (they came together on paper) and the vows (No! No! Not on your fucking life!) and the ring (the watch), and walking down the aisle (the steps) and the kiss (the handshake). But I've never thought of the wedding service in terms as literally as this.

Two years in, and it's still going ...  :D