Author Topic: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2  (Read 20281 times)

Offline dly64

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2006, 10:50:47 pm »
Don't get me wrong... John Twist is an awful person.  Abusive, spiteful, mean-spirited, etc.  I'm certainly not defending him as a character.  But, it does sort of seem like he would have let Jack move up to the ranch with Ennis or the "other fellow".  He would have complained about it, made fun of them, picked on them, grumbled about it, etc.  But still... it appears that he may have been willing to let it happen.  I also think that once he got used to John Twist, Ennis would have been more than capable of standing up to him if he had decided to move to Lightning Flat with Jack.

I see your POV. (I certainly can agree that Ennis would have laid John Twist flat if he crossed him too much). I just don't know .. I guess I'll never know .. if Mr. Twist would have allowed Jack and Ennis to move in together. John saw it as Jack's "dreaming" and that it would never happen. Who knows what the jerk would have done if it was to "actually come to pass".
Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em."

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2006, 12:31:52 am »
In my view, the fact that Mr. Twist is a jerk is the whole point. He's the anti-Mr. del Mar.

Mrs. Twist is compassionate. But she's Jack's mother, and mothers (at least stereotypically) love their children no matter what.  Ennis' mother was apparently sympathetic, too.

But Mr. Twist has been depicted as an asshole from the beginning. Though Jack never says so, we vaguely surmise that Mr. Twist ran Jack off because Jack is gay. (Subtly underscored by Jack's "your folks run you off, too?" as if hoping they ran Ennis off because Ennis is gay.)

In contrast, at first we hear mostly good things (as Mikaela insightfully pointed out) about Mr. del Mar. He died in an accident (automatic sympathy). And in contrast to Jack, Ennis speaks respectfully of his dad. Then WHAM -- turns out he actually evil, a man who would torture someone to death for being gay. Imagine the hell that would ensue if Mr. del Mar found out about Ennis.

Now we meet Mr. Twist. Sure enough, he IS a jerk. Rude, spitty, belligerent, looks like that scary farmer in American Gothic. If Ennis' dad, respectable on the surface, was in fact a murderous homophobe, imagine what a monster this guy must be.

Then he says, in effect, that he knows Jack was gay ("I know where Brokeback Mountain is -- spit ") and resents Jack considering himself too special to be buried in the "family plot." We might assume there's a figurative link here -- Jack thought he could break society's rules and be gay, rather than do the classic straight-man family-values thing, but Mr. Twist wants to hold him to the family "plot," as in story line. Surely a jerk like this must also be homophobic. On the other hand, it's possible he just means that Jack got snooty after he got some money and "thought he was too 'special.'"

Then the old man starts talking about Jack's plans. "'Ennis del Mar,' he used to say ..." he looks a little loony, yet the recollection is so touching that Ennis, despite the circumstances, faintly smiles. But not for long -- immediately old man Twist twists the knife, telling him: hey, pal, Jack had moved onto another guy, you were out of the picture. So Mr. Twist is trying to make Ennis feel even worse, in the midst of his grief. Definitely not a nice guy.

But wait -- is he a homophobic jerk? His jab at Ennis -- cruel as it is -- indicates that he accepts the relationships for what they are, reacts on their terms, understands that Ennis would feel bad about being dumped. Iin other words, his cruelty is no different from the cruelty he might exhibit to a heterosexual couple.

Also, Mr. Twist's main point of contention seems to be that Jack never got around to licking the damn ranch into shape (which Mr. Twist clearly would have welcomed -- the ranch appears rundown, AND we've heard Jack imply his folks could use a hand). Mr. Twist doesn't give a damn if Jack leaves his wife for Ennis del Mar or some ranch neighbor a his -- as long as he came to help. Mr. Twist's main complaint isn't that Jack wanted to ranch together with another man.

On the contrary, Mr. Twist's complaint is that Jack didn't!

And in any case, whatever resentment he holds doesn't provoke him to kick Jack out of the family (plot) but to insist that he stay in it.

He's a mirror image of Mr. del Mar, a gay man's father, who is respectable on the surface but evil toward Earl and Rich. Mr. Twist, a gay man's father, is an asshole on the suface but would at least grudgingly tolerate his own Earl and Rich.

Add this to the two old guys walking together in town and the guys with the black hat and the white hat in the bus station and all the other examples of how it might actually have worked for Jack and Ennis.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 02:11:30 am by latjoreme »

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2006, 12:59:13 am »
But Mr. Twist has been depicted as an asshole from the beginning. Can't please him, no way. Ran Jack off. Never taught Jack a thing, never once went to see him ride. Though Jack never says so, we vaguely surmise that Mr. Twist ran Jack off because Jack is gay. (Subtly underscored by Jack's "your folks run you off, too?" as if hoping they ran Ennis off because Ennis is gay.)

Holy cow Katherine!  That was quite a post!  Yup, that's pretty much how I see it.  He's an asshole, but not necessarily or primarily a homophobic asshole.  Not mincing words here.
 ::)

I love your point about John Twist insisting that Jack stay in the family plot.  And, I do agree that his comment about "being too damn special" may be about Jack's newfound wealth even more than a jab at his sexuality.

I also am fascinated by your point that I quoted above.  I've never pondered Jack's early comment about the idea of parents running a kid "off."  This seems like a very good explanation of that situation and Jack's comment.  It's an odd idea... the idea and the image of parents essentially kicking a kid off the property (that's how I think about it when Jack says this).  It's interesting that this is Jack's immediate assumption when Ennis says he "was" from ranch people.

Anyway, Mr. Twist is probably extra mad that Ennis didn't come work/ live at Lightning Flat now that he's met Ennis and sees that he's a strong and seemingly very capable guy who probably really could have helped whip the ranch into shape.  I'm only sort-of half kidding here.  I think Mr. Twist was a terrible threat to Jack as a kid/ teenager (the abuse/ running him off), but by the time Jack was grown, Mr. Twist seems like a lot of hot-air.  John Twist could still be mean and nasty, but Jack with his smart Mother to back him up were probably pretty capable of dealing with him on many different levels.  Essentially, if Jack decided to move there it seems possible that John Twist wouldn't be able to do a whole lot to stop it anyway.

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2006, 02:00:14 am »
I love your point about John Twist insisting that Jack stay in the family plot.  And, I do agree that his comment about "being too damn special" may be about Jack's newfound wealth even more than a jab at his sexuality.

Somebody suggested that in an earlier post. I used to be convinced that the family plot thing meant John Twist was homophobic. Now I think it's a red herring --  meant to imply a jab at Jack's sexuality but actually just the opposite.

(The running off thing came from someone else, too. That's what I meant when I said in a post to Mikaela earlier this evening that this is so much about bouncing ideas off each other.)

So I realized -- wait a minute, Mr. Twist is threatening and abusive and neglectful and rude and all that bad stuff. But the one thing he isn't, at least not in any obvious way, is homophobic! What could that mean? When you come right down to it, the very fact that he might be despicable, yet not homophobic, means more than the fact that nice Mrs. Twist isn't homophobic. And because he's the father of a gay man, as was Ennis' evil dad, it's an unmistakable parallel. Much as he might resent Mr. Twist's rudeness, this must have been more stunning to Ennis than Mrs. Twist's kindness. Mr. Twist is an asshole -- yet very pointedly not a homophobic asshole.

In other words, I don't just think he's not primarily homophobic or not necessarily homophobic. I now think we're meant to notice that he's just plain not homophobic. So, in Ennis' mind: how is that possible? It's the very opposite of what his own dad taught him to expect. (Jack's relative lack of internal homophobia is probably not unrelated.)

In other words, if Jack's dad had been a nice, sympathetic guy who wasn't homophobic, that would be one thing. In fact, we might not fully trust it. Maybe he just seems nice. But the very fact that Mr. Twist is an asshole and yet still not homophobic -- doesn't express his assholeness through homophobia -- is far more powerful. It's like Jack not looking when Ennis is bathing makes the point more strongly than if Jack had simply looked.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 04:05:48 am by latjoreme »

ruthlesslyunsentimental

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2006, 04:06:13 am »
In my view, the fact that Mr. Twist is a jerk is the whole point. He's the anti-Mr. del Mar.


Wonderfully put and written!  You summed up my feelings exactly.  And you saved me lots of typing time.  Thanks!

So I guess this is my shortest post ever, huh?



Offline Mikaela

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2006, 05:44:23 am »
In other words, I don't just think he's not primarily homophobic or not necessarily homophobic. I now think we're meant to notice that he's just plain not homophobic. So, in Ennis' mind: how is that possible? It's the very opposite of what his own dad taught him to expect. (Jack's relative lack of internal homophobia is probably not unrelated.)

In other words, if Jack's dad had been a nice, sympathetic guy who wasn't homophobic, that would be one thing. In fact, we might not fully trust it. Maybe he just seems nice. But the very fact that Mr. Twist is an asshole and yet still not homophobic -- doesn't express his assholeness through homophobia -- is far more powerful.

Wow, I've loved the various posts here on this subject. Thoughtprovoking to say the least.

One of the things that strike me now, is that the Mr. Twist/Mr. Del Mar contrast that you point out Katherine, is especially difficult to notice due to the audiences' preconceived notions, which we share with Ennis. Like Ennis we've heard a lot of bad stuff about the man before we meet him, and when we do meet him he looks and behaves in a way that make you think Nasty would fit well as his true family name..... Of course he's a homophobe. We completely expect Mr. Twist to share Ennis's fathers opinions on homosexuality. We, and Ennis, are prone to interpret every word and gesture of his in that light.

I wonder how long it took Ennis to piece your realization together? I don't think it happened while he was at Lightning Flat, despite him hearing what Mr. Twist had to say. He was too preoccupied with his grief, too stunned by the news that Jack was leaving him - had already made plans to do so on their last meeting that spring - and too saddened by Mr. Twists refusal to let the ashes go. There was too much else weighing on his mind - he still believes or fears Mr. Twist *must* surely be a homophobe when he leaves, I think. More than anything, I see it in the way Ennis holds the shirts when he gets back down - shielding them somewhat from Mr. Twist, sending him a worried, pained look. Imagine him being denied those shirts - imagine them being torn out of his hands!  Ennis thinks the man may be expected to put up a fuss about him taking the shirts with him - he still expects homophobia to reveal itself in the most painful way possible.

But it doesn't.

And then Mrs. Twist continues to show him nothing but respect, understanding and compassion.

The meeting with Mr. Twist, especially, serves as a painful get-down-to-earth reminder. Ennis fears everyone can look at him and *know*. The meeting with Mr. Twist shows him that even if that were so, for most of those people there are other hang-ups, other more important issues in the world - that they in fact, even when faced directly with the issue of homosexuality, may not consider that a big deal compared to other matters. It's a humbling experience. The monumental matter that Ennis let ruin his and Jack's chance of happiness - not that big a deal at all to many others?

Yes, the more I think about it, the more I see how Ennis came away from the Twists with much new food for reflection on how other people might approach someone being "queer", much thanks to Jack who told his parents as much as he did about Ennis and gave them the opportunity to respond accordingly when they meet Ennis. In addition to the confirmation of Jack's love for him that Ennis carries back home,  it will help him come to terms with who he is and realize - in his heart - that far from holding the commonly shared opinion on the matter, his father was far out to one side of the scale, in the miniority. I wonder if that sort of reflection could happen when the pain and grief about Jack was still so raw.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 05:49:36 am by Mikaela »

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2006, 06:01:30 am »
Penth, I am SO SORRY (picture me standing aghast over a pile of broken peanut jars).

No need to worry, Katherine. I don't mind.

To stay true, I did just copy and paste my original answers and resited the temptation to alter some of it or to phrase them different. Only in one case I added a short sentence.




Regarding the harmonica:
Does Jack play "He was a friend of mine?"
          Diane - IMO, there is no melodic line. I can't imagine that this is the case.
          Jane  -  no idea.
          Ruthlessly – Yes.  It can be hard to catch in watching the film because of other noises and dialogue that separate the various parts of his playing.  But, all of Jack’s harmonica playing is on the Academy voters CD (there’s a link to it somewhere on these boards, but I cannot remember where I found it).  On this CD, you hear all of Jack’s playing without the extra noises and without the extra dialogue.  And, it’s all strung together in order.  It’s crystal clear.  The lyrics for the notes he plays are: (during the “tent don’t look right” scene) “He….. was a friend of mine…. He…. (stop) He… (stop) Was a friend of mine… (stop) Just kept on mov…” and (during the ride back from untangling the sheep) “He was a friend of mine… Every time I hear his name… I just…” (then he just blows in and out for a couple of seconds as if trying to find his tune).  Jack’s playing is out of tune, but it’s unmistakable on the voters CD.
          Katherine -- That sounds perfectly plausible. I haven't heard it, myself.
          Mikaela -- Not in a way that is obvious or easily discernible in the film, IMO 
          Amanda= Yes, I think he does.  I only realized this after someone on one of the boards mentioned it.  And, now I definitely hear it that way.
          Penth -- I don't know. But it's hard to believe; I think no.


Is there any symbolism in Jack playing the harmonica twice and Ennis saying, “I wish that harmonica would break in two"?
          Diane – I say no. I bring this up because there was an argument that the harmonica symbolized “breaking Ennis and Jack in two” … Obviously, I don’t buy it.
          Jane  -  no.
          Ruthlessly - Yes there is.  It’s a foreshadowing of Jack being separated in two when half of his ashes went to Texas and half to Wyoming.  It’s not about the two of them breaking in two.  Every time either Ennis or Jack hums or sings or Jack plays his harmonica, it foreshadows Jack’s death.  Singing, humming, and harmonica playing are all forms of wind.  Jack is symbolized by the wind.  Ennis hums “The Cowboy’s Lament” (aka “The Streets of Laredo”) about a dead cowboy as he rides to meet the bear, Jack plays “He was a Friend of Mine” on his harmonica at the “tent don’t look” right, Jack sings “Water-Walking Jesus” (“I know that I shall meet you on that final day… WWJ, take me away”), Jack plays “He was a Friend of Mine” on his harmonica after the “untangle sheep” scene, Ennis is glad Jack forgot his harmonica at the river reunion scene (because it would foreshadow Jack’s death, and then Ennis foreshadows Jack’s death himself when he tells the Earl death story), Ennis will go to the church social with the girls if he doesn’t have to sing (he doesn’t want to foreshadow Jack’s death), Ennis hums a tune taught to him by his mother at the dozy embrace – Jack dies soon afterward.
          Katherine -- I can buy that.
          Mikaela -- playing it twice - no, not IMO. The "wish it would break" - yes. 
          Amanda= Yes, there's symbolism in everything in the film, or so it seems.  There's a discussion about this topic in the Jack and the Wind thread for more in-depth discussion of this.  I think, like others that it's foreshadowing and it's a relatively subtle way to reference the title of the movie (along the lines of the Timmy conversation).  In the wind thread, I mentioned the idea that even though Ennis talks about the harmonica breaking in two... but it actually doesn't.  Jack says it got flattened instead.  I think his "loyalty" to a crushed harmonica is quite significant.  He loves his harmonica and won't give up on it even though it's no longer in tune.  And even though the harmonica is flattened it's resilient and still works.  All of these things seem significant to how Jack functions in the relationship with Ennis.  He's loyal and persistent throughout the relationship despite disappointments and obstacles and he won't give up on something he loves.  The fact that we see him playing it twice shows that even Ennis's protests won't get him to stop.... he really loves his harmonica, so there's almost nothing that will get him to give it up.  As a "wind" instrument it's almost part of him.  It is curious that he didn't bring a harmonica to the "prayer of thanks" camping trip... but maybe he hadn't expected to be camping at that juncture... since it seemed like quite a spontaneous trip out to the mountains that time.  About the word "flattened" re: the harmonica as opposed to breaking in two and the notion of foreshadowing.  Well,  "flattened" maybe is a reference to a flattened tire... maybe this is a hint towards the accident option when it comes to how Jack dies.  Maybe I'm stretching here.
                 Penth -- hmm, undecided. But I can't follow ruthlessly with his argumentation as a whole. Perhaps partly. Addition some days later: changed my mind from undecided to yes, regarding the symbolism.
 


Regarding Randall:           
Is Jack checking out Randall or is Randall checking out Jack?
          Diane – I think it is both. However, I think Randall is more overt than  Jack.
          Jane  -  Randall checking out Jack.
          Ruthlessly – I think Randall checks out Jack overtly, Jack knows it and is trying to avoid it.
          Katherine -- Randall checks out Jack, Jack isn't sure how to respond but is somewhat intrigued.
          Mikaela -- Randall is checking out Jack. Jack is very aware of it and seems uncomfortable,  partly because it's very awkward with both their wives sitting right there - but to me there clearly seems to be more to his discomfort than that. 
          Amanda= I know my position here isn't quite so popular.  But, I definitely think Jack and Randall are both checking each other out and Jack is being very, very bold in almost flirting outright with Randall even at the table.  I really do think he's playfully goofing around with the "wanna dance?" question that could be directed at either Randall or LaShawn.  I think on the bench Jack becomes much more thoughtful and a little more reserved because he realizes that this really is a new opportunity and there's no doubt in my mind that that shot of him looking like his thoughts are a million miles away is meant to indicate that he's pondering what this would mean for his relationship with Ennis.  This, I think, is the symmetrical situation re: Ennis and Cassie.  But, Jack isn't going to waste his time having a fake affair with a woman.  Following the "miserable fucking life" argument all of this I think is meant to show the growing strain in the relationship and Jack's increasing desparation.
                Penth -- Randall checking out Jack. Jack notices.

When Randall mentions the cabin … what is Jack thinking?
          Diane – IMO, he is thinking about Ennis … especially when he looks straight ahead …. as if  he is longing to be with the man he loves. However, he also has needs that Ennis is not fulfilling … so I think he’s beginning to consider having an affair.
          Jane  -  His exacts words / thoughts are "Why couldn't this be Ennis, suggesting that?"
          Ruthlessly – He’s thinking everything you both said and a lot more.
          Katherine -- Ditto.
          Mikaela --  another big Ditto from me.
          Amanda- up until this more serious proposition on the bench, I think Jack is sort of having fun with some light flirting.  Once Randall mentions fishing everything changes.  He's immediately reminded of Ennis by the fishing idea and worries about the implications of this for his relationship with Ennis. He definitely gets that having an affair with a man (as opposed to a woman) is way outside the rule book when it comes to Ennis.
                  Penth -- Thinking about Ennis and regretting that it is not Ennis who makes this suggestion. And starting to consider about it.

Ennis’ vision of Jack being murdered:
Does Ennis’ finding out that Jack had been seeing another man reinforce his belief that Jack was murdered?
          Diane – Yes. That feeds into his homophobia. In Ennis' mind, people found out that Jack was having sex with a man and was killed because of it.
          Jane  -  It re-inforces his fear, IMO he does not have the belief 100%, he has the fear.
          Ruthlessly – Yes.  As long as we keep it all in Ennis’ mind.
          Katherine -- Yes.
          Mikaela --  Yes. It's in the short story, obviously - but apart from that in the film it confirms to Ennis that Jack was in fact engaged with something back home that would have caugth the attention of people of the same disposition towards gays as Ennis's father had and acted upon.
          Amanda- Yes.
            Penth -- Yes. But Ennis's fears were fuled when he finds out about Jack seeing other men, which is at the lake scene, latest. Not in the Twist home. If you mean especially when he learns about Randalll ("some other fella") at the Twist home, then no for the movie but a  yes for the book.


Is there a significance that Ennis envisions a man stomping on Jack’s groin?
          Diane – Absolutely, yes. Mirrors the image he saw with Earl. This signifies the most overt thing … the sexual organ (I am trying to be delicate here … difficult to do) … having sex with a man is societal suicide.
          Jane  -  I dunno, never gave it much thought.
          Ruthlessly – I agree with Diane.
          Katherine -- Me too.

          Mikaela --  Yes. First time I noticed that, I saw the image of Earl before my inner eye, remembering just how he was mutilated. Those gay-bashers may not have said much but they knew how to get their point across.  :( :( :(
          Amanda- Yes, it shows how much he's blending his awful memories of Earl with his fears about Jack.
           Penth -- Never saw this in the movie. Too many tears.


Even though the reality of Jack’s death is ambiguous, IYO, was Jack murdered or did he die in an accident?
          Diane – Hate to say this, but I think he was murdered.
          Jane  -  Well I prefer to believe that he died in an accident, but I realize that I could be wrong as the overwhelming consensus (four-to-one that it was gay bashing) is that he was murdered.
          Ruthlessly – Accident.  All of the direct evidence points straight to it.  All of the evidence for murder hinges on one point only – something that Ennis conjured up in his mind due to his fears.
          Katherine -- I'm mostly agnostic; I think we're not meant to know. But if I had to say one or the other, I think there's more evidence for murder.
          Mikaela -- We're not meant to know. But in my heart of hearts, I think he was murdered. (I have been wondering about Jack's state of mind after he came home from the last meeting with Ennis. He was feeling very down, obviously - and he "drank a lot". In all probability he didn't get around to actually taking action asking Lureen for a divorce although he'd told his parents he would..... I think Jack may have been in a state of mind where he got careless. Perhaps not deliberately taunting fate nor deliberately attracting the wrong sort of attention, but just not able to give enough of a damn about it anymore. )  
          Amanda- Yes, I prefer to keep it ambiguous.  But, I tend to lean towards the murder scenario... I think Lureen's story is too far-fetched.  But, I also think Ennis might be projecting his own fears here.  But, at the end of the day, he knew Jack better than Lureen did (even though she obviously spent a lot more time with him) and Ennis might just have more of a gut instinct no matter what when it comes to anything to do with Jack.
                Penth -- Phew. Tough one. I tend to accident, most times. But only "tend to".  We're all in the same situation like Ennis: never knowing for sure. I just can't make my mind up for a definite (definite for myself)  answer. First I was in the "murder-camp", then changed to the "accident-camp", now it changes back and forth.

When Ennis finds out (when visiting Jack's parents) that Jack was seeing another man, his face turned pale. IYO, was Ennis feeling betrayed? Was he thinking, "OMG! Jack was murdered"?
          Diane - I think Ennis felt betrayed at the lake scene, but not so much here. It was the knowledge that Jack was seeing a man at the same time he died and the belief that Jack was, indeed, murdered.
          Jane  -  I tried to read his expressions, but I could not.  But I can still answer this question, I guess.  I think when he heard about the other guy, he felt betrayed, because Jack was steppin' out.
          Ruthlessly – Betrayed, no.  Jack murdered, no.  He was thinking “I really blew it.  I could have had that with Jack, but I wouldn’t give it to him.  So he tried to fulfill his dream with someone else.”  With this kind of emotional self-beating, betrayal and murder are far from his mind.  He’s only concentrating on the love that was between them.
          Katherine -- He is devastated and heartbroken at the news that, unbeknownst to him, the love of his life was thinking about moving on. And guilty, because he knows why Jack would have done so. In the story, this makes him immediately think of murder, but if you ask me that would not be uppermost in his mind at the moment.
          Mikaela -- All that Katherine said. He is feeling devastated at this confirmation that he was losing Jack anyway, - *not* betrayed. He knows *why* Jack was leaving and that he himself carries a lot of responsibility for that, and also knows that his own behaviour may have led Jack to actions that ultimately caught the attention of those shadowy figures he believes killed Jack..... It all adds to his already monumental regret and guilt and grief. (I know Ang Lee originally intended to include another scene of Jack-bashing at this point. I'm very glad he didn't, - I think the scene works better without us being spoon-fed what Ennis is thinking there.) 
          Amanda= I think it's both.  I think his grief and love though overpower his feelings of betrayal (he may have guessed Jack was having an affair with a guy anyway... he probably was shocked that it had gotten so far as Jack inviting the other fellow to live with him... that's pretty significant).  I think the shirts/ Jack's Mom help wipe away the feelings of betrayal.  But, I'm sure it helped reinforce his fears about the murder.  I think Ennis is also shocked by how much Jack's parents know about everything.  His secret with Jack was no secret at all.
              Penth -- Betrayed? Don't know.  Hurt? yes

« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 06:07:29 am by Penthesilea »

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2006, 08:08:22 pm »
More than anything, I see it in the way Ennis holds the shirts when he gets back down - shielding them somewhat from Mr. Twist, sending him a worried, pained look. Imagine him being denied those shirts - imagine them being torn out of his hands!  Ennis thinks the man may be expected to put up a fuss about him taking the shirts with him - he still expects homophobia to reveal itself in the most painful way possible.

But it doesn't.

And then Mrs. Twist continues to show him nothing but respect, understanding and compassion.

The meeting with Mr. Twist, especially, serves as a painful get-down-to-earth reminder. Ennis fears everyone can look at him and *know*. The meeting with Mr. Twist shows him that even if that were so, for most of those people there are other hang-ups, other more important issues in the world - that they in fact, even when faced directly with the issue of homosexuality, may not consider that a big deal compared to other matters. It's a humbling experience. The monumental matter that Ennis let ruin his and Jack's chance of happiness - not that big a deal at all to many others?

Heya,

Yes, I think Ennis holds the shirts awkwardly rolled up in a gesture of protectiveness.  I've said in other threads that I'm sure things would have gotten really ugly if Mr. Twist had tried to somehow get the shirts away from Ennis.  Personally, I don't think Mr. Twist would have been able to do this.  Anyway, I also think that Ennis rolled the shirts up in a way so that only Jack's blue shirt is really visible while his own shirt is very much hidden.  This I think shows he's still very worried about a homophobic reaction.

And, about this other (very good) point about their queer-ness not being a big deal to many/ some people (as opposed to Ennis's somewhat overblown fear about intense homophobic reaction at every turn)... I think it's extremely important that in this case the people who don't seem to take it as such a big deal are Jack's parents.  Some of the most important people in their lives (had they lived together) seemingly would have accepted them (even if grudgingly on the part of Mr. Twist).  They aren't just random people who might be OK with Jack and Ennis being gay... These were potentially Ennis's "in-laws."
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Offline dly64

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2006, 08:55:41 pm »
Okay guys ... you know I have to jump in here about this ...

But Mr. Twist has been depicted as an asshole from the beginning. Though Jack never says so, we vaguely surmise that Mr. Twist ran Jack off because Jack is gay. (Subtly underscored by Jack's "your folks run you off, too?" as if hoping they ran Ennis off because Ennis is gay.)

I may be nitpicking here … but Jack does not say, “your folks run you off, too?” He simply asks him “your folks run you off?” To me, that has a different connotation. This may go back to the rationale that, IMO, Jack didn’t have sexual experiences with men prior to BBM. I know that I am in the minority regarding this topic. When I first saw BBM, I questioned if Jack had slept with men before meeting Ennis. I obviously changed my POV. My reasoning has to do with the following:
•   Jack lived in a very homophobic state during a homophobic time.
•   Jack was only 19.
•   IMO, Jack understood he was attracted to men but was also homophobic … certainly not to the degree that Ennis was, but homophobic just the same.

Don’t kill me here folks, but please humor me for a minute. In Annie Proulx’s essay, “Getting Movied” from the book, “Brokeback Mountain: story to screenplay” she says:

“The two characters had to have grown up on isolated hardscrabble ranches and were clearly homophobic themselves, especially the Ennis character … Although they were not really cowboys … the urban critics dubbed it a tale of two gay cowboys. No. It is a story of rural homophobia.”

I bring up this point because, although we see Jack as being more “out” than Ennis, he is not out completely. Look at the symbolism of Jack’s closet ... yes, the door is open, but the two shirts … his love for Ennis …. is still hidden.

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Then he says, in effect, that he knows Jack was gay ("I know where Brokeback Mountain is -- spit ") and resents Jack considering himself too special to be buried in the "family plot." We might assume there's a figurative link here -- Jack thought he could break society's rules and be gay, rather than do the classic straight-man family-values thing, but Mr. Twist wants to hold him to the family "plot," as in story line. Surely a jerk like this must also be homophobic. On the other hand, it's possible he just means that Jack got snooty after he got some money and "thought he was too 'special.'"

I am nitpicking again … but I am laying this out to as part of my argument … Mr. Twist spits after he says … “’Ennis del Mar,’ he used to say, ‘I’m goin’ a bring him up here one of these days ….’” The timing of this is important. He is showing his disdain towards Ennis. Then Mr. Twist continues to demean Ennis by talking about Jack bring up another “fella,” It should also be noted that the way Mr. Twist is talking is angry,  bitter.

IMO, the argument/ possibility that Jack got snooty after he had money doesn’t hold water. First of all, Mr. Twist was abusive towards Jack (physically, verbally, and emotionally). From what I have surmised, Jack certainly did not stand up to Mr. Twist. His dad was a jerk who could see nothing good in Jack. Secondly, Jack would have given up his money in a minute. It was not that important to him. Had Ennis decided to live with Jack, he would have given it all up.

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But wait -- is he a homophobic jerk? His jab at Ennis -- cruel as it is -- indicates that he accepts the relationships for what they are, reacts on their terms, understands that Ennis would feel bad about being dumped. In other words, his cruelty is no different from the cruelty he might exhibit to a heterosexual couple.

Also, Mr. Twist's main point of contention seems to be that Jack never got around to licking the damn ranch into shape (which Mr. Twist clearly would have welcomed -- the ranch appears rundown, AND we've heard Jack imply his folks could use a hand). Mr. Twist doesn't give a damn if Jack leaves his wife for Ennis del Mar or some ranch neighbor a his -- as long as he came to help. Mr. Twist's main complaint isn't that Jack wanted to ranch together with another man.

On the contrary, Mr. Twist's complaint is that Jack didn't!

And in any case, whatever resentment he holds doesn't provoke him to kick Jack out of the family (plot) but to insist that he stay in it.

You are right that Mr. Twist’s cruelty is no different than what might be exhibited towards a heterosexual couple. However, just because the cruelty could be transferred to a hetero does not indicate that Mr. Twist accepts the relationships for what they are.  What Mr. Twist is relaying is his contempt for Jack, Jack’s lover, and Jack’s lifestyle. IMO, Mr. Twist is giving Ennis, Jack, Jack’s ideas, etc. the finger. Since Jack could never please his father … do you really think Mr. Twist thought Jack would actually move up there and help run the ranch? Mr. Twist makes it clear that Jack’s ideas were foolish and that, “like most of Jack’s ideas it never come to pass.” What would have been Mr. Twist’s reaction if Jack actually did decide to move up there? We will never know. I find it hard to believe that the “stud duck” would have allowed that to happen.

As for the family plot … it is not that Mr. Twist cares if Jack goes in it. He just wants to make sure that Jack’s final wish is not honored. Again, it is a way of giving Jack the finger … even in death.

 
Yes, the more I think about it, the more I see how Ennis came away from the Twists with much new food for reflection on how other people might approach someone being "queer", much thanks to Jack who told his parents as much as he did about Ennis and gave them the opportunity to respond accordingly when they meet Ennis. In addition to the confirmation of Jack's love for him that Ennis carries back home, it will help him come to terms with who he is and realize - in his heart - that far from holding the commonly shared opinion on the matter, his father was far out to one side of the scale, in the minority. I wonder if that sort of reflection could happen when the pain and grief about Jack was still so raw.

I am not convinced Jack told his folks anything except that Ennis was his friend. Mrs. Twist certainly knew about the shirts … I think she found them. Mr. Twist heard Jack talking about Ennis and concluded that it was more than a friendship … it was likely a gay relationship. It takes very little to conclude if a person is gay or not. Think of Lureen … her fears/ suspicions were realized when Ennis told her about Jack and him herding sheep on BBM in ’63. You can see the further pained look on Lureen’s face when Ennis said, “we was good friends.” Shoot … I have figured out that a few guys were gay before they were even willing to admit it to themselves!

When Ennis comes down with the shirts, he holds them away from Mr. Twist. John represents societal homophobia …. an abusive SOB who probably figured his son was gay when he was a child (could have John been gay himself and took it out on his son?? Just a thought). Mrs. Twist represents compassion and love … despite what others may think of her son and his lover. IMO, Ennis became even more homophobic after he left the Twist’s. He saw the hatred in Mr. Twist. He assumed (rightly or wrongly) that Jack had been murdered because someone “found out.” Even though Ennis received compassion from Jack’s mother, it is the male “role model” who shows that his sexuality should be hated and despised.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2006, 02:02:00 pm »
Mr. Twist spits after he says … “’Ennis del Mar,’ he used to say, ‘I’m goin’ a bring him up here one of these days ….’” The timing of this is important. He is showing his disdain towards Ennis.

That could be. It's been a while since I saw the movie, and I was just throwing in spits here and there for the fun of it. I realize that was irresponsible, because it's true that spits are significant and their timing is important. My bad.

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Then Mr. Twist continues to demean Ennis by talking about Jack bring up another “fella,” It should also be noted that the way Mr. Twist is talking is angry,  bitter.

Actually, if anything he strikes me as a tiny bit less angry and bitter in the moments when he's talking about Jack's plans than he is at other times in the conversation. I'm not saying he's some big crusader for gay rights. And he's undoubtedly a jerk. I just don't see his jerkiness as specifically homophobic.

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IMO, the argument/ possibility that Jack got snooty after he had money doesn’t hold water. First of all, Mr. Twist was abusive towards Jack (physically, verbally, and emotionally). From what I have surmised, Jack certainly did not stand up to Mr. Twist. His dad was a jerk who could see nothing good in Jack. Secondly, Jack would have given up his money in a minute. It was not that important to him. Had Ennis decided to live with Jack, he would have given it all up.

To clarify: I'm not saying MYSELF that Jack is snooty! I'd never say that. (Well, I might say he was a tiny bit tactless in his "If taxes don't take it, inflation eats it up ..." remark, given that he's talking to someone much poorer than himself.) I'm saying that's an alternate explanation for what Mr. Twist means when he calls Jack "too special." Jack obviously climbed a few rungs above his parents in socioeconomic status, and Mr. Twist possibly resents that.

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You are right that Mr. Twist’s cruelty is no different than what might be exhibited towards a heterosexual couple. However, just because the cruelty could be transferred to a hetero does not indicate that Mr. Twist accepts the relationships for what they are.  What Mr. Twist is relaying is his contempt for Jack, Jack’s lover, and Jack’s lifestyle.

Jack and Jack's lover, yes. But Jack's lifestyle ... again, I see no evidence of this. Just because he's contemptuous, doesn't mean it's Jack's sexuality that he holds contempt for. And the fact that his cruelty could be transferred to a hetero couple indicates not that he accepts the relationships -- only that his rejection is not necessarily based on their orientation.

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IMO, Mr. Twist is giving Ennis, Jack, Jack’s ideas, etc. the finger. Since Jack could never please his father … do you really think Mr. Twist thought Jack would actually move up there and help run the ranch?

No, not necessarily. But that's not essential to my point. My point is that when Mr. Twist talks about it, he very obviously focuses his criticism not on Jack leaving his wife to live with a man -- but on Jack's failure to follow through with yet another of his ideas. I think the nature of his criticism is what's significant, not whether Mr. Twist took it seriously in the first place.

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I am not convinced Jack told his folks anything except that Ennis was his friend. ... It takes very little to conclude if a person is gay or not.

In this issue it doesn't matter how Mr. Twist knew Jack was gay.  Only that he knew it.

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IMO, Ennis became even more homophobic after he left the Twist’s. He saw the hatred in Mr. Twist. He assumed (rightly or wrongly) that Jack had been murdered because someone “found out.” Even though Ennis received compassion from Jack’s mother, it is the male “role model” who shows that his sexuality should be hated and despised.

Hunh? This I don't get at all. Why would a 39-year-old man see a role model in an obnoxious old geezer whom he has ever reason to dislike and with whom he has spent no more than an hour or so? And even if so, given that Ennis was taught from childhood that his sexuality should be hated and despised, and given that he was perfectly capable of reinforcing that lesson to himself, thank you very much, and given that all of his other experiences that afternoon had if anything shown him that his sexuality was more nonchalantly accepted than he would imagine possible ... then why on earth would Mr. Twist's views make him feel any more homophobic? Or why would his being convinced Jack was murdered make him more homophobic? If anything, I would think both those experiences would push him in exactly the opposite direction.