Author Topic: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2  (Read 20283 times)

Offline Katie77

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #30 on: July 10, 2006, 09:55:54 pm »
I agree with you too, that Mr Twist, was probaby not homophobic....or was it just that he was too nieve to realize when jack said he was bringing Ennis or Randall to the ranch to help out, that he didnt realize that there was anything untoward about that.

Either way, it does show something, and I wonder if Ennis realized it....that if he had come out with Jack to the ranch, there was not going to be any repurcussions or objections to it, at least not from MR and Mrs Twist.

Maybe old man Twist, knew, but would never have said it out loud..

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2006, 02:38:14 am »
He never met Lureen. He never met his son.

(You mean grandson, right?) Do we know that (could be, though I don't remember hearing that)? And if so, is it necessarily all OMT's fault? The Twists are old and, like Ennis, may lack a reliable car. Jack could also have brought the family up to Lightning Flat, couldn't he?

But actually, I don't really want to defend Mr. Twist. For one thing, I've already got my hands full, constantly defending Ennis  :laugh: And for another, I think that the more of an SOB he is, the better the movie works. He can be the world's biggest SOB, in fact, as long as he's not also a homophobe. I'm not insisting on his lack of homophobia because I don't want you to hate him as much. I think you should hate him all you like but also notice his lack of homophobia.

I think what the filmmakers are trying to show with the Lightning Flat scenes is Ennis finding out how much he blew it. In two ways: 1) he underestimated or mishandled his relationship with Jack, which he realizes when he hears about Jack's idea that never came to pass -- Jack took it seriously enough to mention it to his parents -- and then especially when he finds the shirts. And 2) he learns that getting outed is not as disastrous as he'd always assumed it would be. He learns that from Mrs. Twist, because she is compassionate. But he learns it even better from Mr. Twist, ironically because he is not the least bit compassionate. Quite the opposite, yet the homosexuality part of the equation is not a big problem. Maybe the sweet life was more feasible than Ennis believed.

That message wouldn't be conveyed by different scenarios. If Mr. Twist were homophobic and mean, it would only confirm our expectations. The film sets us up to assume that because he ran Jack off, etc. And Ennis may have assumed the same, because all mean dads are homophobes, right? So Ennis wouldn't learn anything upon meeting him, nor would we.

If Mr. Twist were unhomophobic and nice, like Mrs. Twist, it would be reassuring for Ennis. Not everybody hates him. But he still wouldn't learn much -- nice people might actually be homophobic but politely hide it or, if they're really really nice, maybe they aren't homophobic, but only because they're so nice.

But if Mr. Twist is an obnoxious jerk and yet STILL isn't homophobic, that really says something. OMT has no reason to hide his homophobia from Ennis. He's spiteful, so if homophobia were an issue, you can bet he'd drag that one out, too. But he doesn't. So Ennis learns that, contrary to what he has believed since childhood, not all fathers or men or role models or people hate homosexuals as much as he assumes they do. Wow! That's a much more interesting and dramatic scene, especially because it counters our own expectations -- wait a minute, aren't all 60s-era cantankerous rural geezers also homophobes? Once again, we're required to look beyond our preconceptions.

So the more you hate Mr. Twist, the more effective the scene is.

Also, just to clarify, I don't think the film is trying to say that actually the world is a friendly happy place where homophobia only exists in people's imaginations -- the Earl story counters that. It's only this particular person who does not appear to be homophobic. However, that's in keeping with the rest of the movie. Nobody who "knows" about Jack and Ennis reacts very strongly: Aguirre doesn't fire them, Alma stays quiet for years. The damage of societal homophobia is inflicted mostly on Ennis' mind and, well, soul. But that is not to say the damage is imaginary or negligible -- on the contrary, it is real and devastating and life-wrecking.

I agree with much of what Ruthlessly said about this issue. Incuding:

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OMT is very stoic, very quiet, he listens to what Ennis says. ...There is a raw emotion in his voice that, to me, expresses a very reserved sorrow.  Overall, because his son has recently died.

This is what I see, too. I disagree with your contention, Diane, that he didn't care about his son. So hey, maybe he's not such a bad guy after all.

Or, no, wait ... he has to be!

Offline dly64

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2006, 09:41:59 am »
(You mean grandson, right?) Do we know that (could be, though I don't remember hearing that)? And if so, is it necessarily all OMT's fault? The Twists are old and, like Ennis, may lack a reliable car. Jack could also have brought the family up to Lightning Flat, couldn't he?

Whoops! I meant grandson … it was one of those things where I knew what I meant, but didn’t translate it correctly. C’est la vie!!

Okay … you are correct that it was not expressed in the film regarding never meeting Jack’s family. (That’s one of those things that I transferred from the story to the film). And, yes, Jack could have driven Lureen and Bobby up. It’s maybe one of those circumstances whereby Jack really didn’t want to deal with his bastard of a father. (Can you tell that I really find OMT despicable?)

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I think what the filmmakers are trying to show with the Lightning Flat scenes is Ennis finding out how much he blew it. In two ways: 1) he underestimated or mishandled his relationship with Jack, which he realizes when he hears about Jack's idea that never came to pass -- Jack took it seriously enough to mention it to his parents -- and then especially when he finds the shirts. And 2) he learns that getting outed is not as disastrous as he'd always assumed it would be. He learns that from Mrs. Twist, because she is compassionate. But he learns it even better from Mr. Twist, ironically because he is not the least bit compassionate. Quite the opposite, yet the homosexuality part of the equation is not a big problem. Maybe the sweet life was more feasible than Ennis believed.

I certainly agree with your first point. As for your second point … are you saying that Mr. Twist is nonchalant about his son being gay? That he is impassive? I am not sure about that … I keep vacillating. I guess, for today, I can see your logic.

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So the more you hate Mr. Twist, the more effective the scene is.

Also, just to clarify, I don't think the film is trying to say that actually the world is a friendly happy place where homophobia only exists in people's imaginations -- the Earl story counters that. It's only this particular person who does not appear to be homophobic. However, that's in keeping with the rest of the movie. Nobody who "knows" about Jack and Ennis reacts very strongly: Aguirre doesn't fire them, Alma stays quiet for years. The damage of societal homophobia is inflicted mostly on Ennis' mind and, well, soul. But that is not to say the damage is imaginary or negligible -- on the contrary, it is real and devastating and life-wrecking.

If you are saying that Ennis realizes that he would not have (necessarily) been killed for loving a man … I can agree with that. I understand that you are also focusing on one person and not society as a whole. As for others “not reacting strongly” …. to me it is not what they do. It is what they say and what they convey in their tone of voice. It’s disdain. Look at racial hatred.  Not everyone would kill a person of another race (although it happens). However, that doesn’t prevent them from despising the individual and causing irreparable harm to his/her psyche. Although I can agree that much of the damage perpetrated on to Ennis is from Ennis himself,   it does not preclude the fact that, especially in that time and place, he would have been hated, despised, and a target. (What I mean as a “target” – certainly discrimination and possibly the target of a hate crime).

It is at this moment I am going to share with (all of) you one thing that colors my perception. I have shared this before in another thread, but I don’t know that any of you are aware of this:
I had a great uncle who was gay. He lived in a rural Midwestern town. He did what society expected of him. He got married and had children (albeit 12 years apart).  He was caught having sex with a man and was arrested. Of course all of this was extremely painful for everyone. Oh yes … one more thing …. he was murdered. Apparently everyone knew who did it, but no one was arrested. Why? Because it eliminated this parasite from their midst.

I am telling you this not to evoke sympathy, but to express the toll on everyone that rural homophobia causes. I don’t think any of us disagree with this statement. Where I think we differ … even if someone is not outwardly homophobic, it does not eliminate the seething contempt perpetrated on the gay individual. This is how I see OMT. Granted, he probably would not have killed Ennis or his son. That is not to say, however, that he wouldn’t work hard to demean them and to destroy them emotionally. OMT is all about CONTROL, CONTROL, CONTROL. (YIKES! I am coming on really strong here, but that is what I think).

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I disagree with your contention, Diane, that he didn't care about his son. So hey, maybe he's not such a bad guy after all.

Or, no, wait ... he has to be!

I see what you are saying … but it comes down to this …  IMO, Mr. Twist is not keeping the ashes because he longs to have Jack in the family plot. On the contrary. He is doing it because he knows this is not what Jack wanted. Back to the whole issue of control. I may have been too strong in saying that OMT didn’t care about his son (at all). But his motivations are not out of love for Jack. He is not being a bastard to Ennis because he blames Ennis for allowing Jack to die. He is being an old SOB because that is what he is.
Diane

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2006, 11:29:24 am »
It’s maybe one of those circumstances whereby Jack really didn’t want to deal with his bastard of a father.

So his father is a bastard because he never met his grandson, which he couldn't do because his son never introduced them, which he didn't do because his father is a bastard?  ;) No, I know what you mean. And as I said, I definitely am not vying for a a position on the OMT Defense League. (The EDM Defense League is already a full-time job.)

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As for your second point … are you saying that Mr. Twist is nonchalant about his son being gay? That he is impassive? I am not sure about that … I keep vacillating. I guess, for today, I can see your logic.

It would seem so. Of if he harbors homophobia in his heart of hearts, we're not shown it. The important thing is the filmmakers very pointedly did not present him as a homophobe, and their objective was not to elicit sympathy for the old man but to make a dramatic point.

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As for others “not reacting strongly” …. to me it is not what they do. It is what they say and what they convey in their tone of voice. It’s disdain.

Sure. But the point is that the worst reaction -- in this particular story, excluding Earl -- happens in Ennis' mind. Besides, Ennis is used to facing disdainful tones in other circumstances. Look how disdainful Aguirre was, even before he knew of their sexual activities. In Ennis' mind, the repercussions of people "knowing" would be much more huge and unbearable than garden-variety disdain. On Thanksgiving, if Alma had accused him -- in the same disdainful tone -- of being a bad provider, he would have been pissed off. But I don't think he would have threatened violence, stormed out of the house and got himself beaten up. If Aguirre, instead of saying "You ranch stiffs ain't never no good," had said something about their sexual activities, Ennis would not have just stood there impassively, he would have freaked out. He could live with being called incompetent. But he was raised to believe that homosexuality was not in any way remotely acceptable, that it was the worst possible thing, that the consequences of being associated with the word were unspeakable.

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However, that doesn’t prevent them from despising the individual and causing irreparable harm to his/her psyche.

Exactly!!!!! That's exactly the point the film is making about societal homophobia -- that it causes irreparable harm to an individual's psyche.

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Although I can agree that much of the damage perpetrated on to Ennis is from Ennis himself,

But really I'm not saying that. I'm saying that actually the damage to Ennis was perpetrated by society, or maybe that the damage perpetrated by society causes Ennis to perpetrate damage on himself. In other words, I'm not letting society off the hook, and I don't think Ennis' problems came out of nowhere.

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it does not preclude the fact that, especially in that time and place, he would have been hated, despised, and a target. (What I mean as a “target” – certainly discrimination and possibly the target of a hate crime).

Sure. The Earl story certainly proves that. I'm just saying it's interesting that the filmmakers chose not to focus on the external expression of homophobia (discrimination, hate crimes). In fact, Earl aside, those are conspicuously absent. Aguirre watches Jack and Ennis through the binoculars. Then we see him riding up to Jack and think "Uh-oh, now the shit's going to hit the fan!" (Ha ha ha: shit, fan -- get it?!) But in fact, it doesn't. Aguirre doesn't mention what he saw. He doesn't fire them or yell at them. In fact, he's not even all that rude, at least by his standards. Why not? (Though he does decline to rehire Jack the following year, so discrimination isn't entirely absent.)

BTW, understand that I'm not saying, oh, they never show any hate crimes except for that trivial little subplot involving Earl. The horrifying shadow of Earl's fate looms over the whole story. I'm just saying that, having said it once, the film figures we get the message and doesn't need to say it again and again.

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I had a great uncle who was gay. He lived in a rural Midwestern town. He did what society expected of him. He got married and had children (albeit 12 years apart).  He was caught having sex with a man and was arrested. Of course all of this was extremely painful for everyone. Oh yes … one more thing …. he was murdered. Apparently everyone knew who did it, but no one was arrested.

Diane, I saw this on the other thread. I know you aren't saying it to get sympathy, but I AM really sorry, it's a horrifying story. And please please don't interpret my remarks here to indicate that I think stuff like that never happens. That's not what I mean at all.

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Where I think we differ … even if someone is not outwardly homophobic, it does not eliminate the seething contempt perpetrated on the gay individual.

I don't think we differ on this.

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This is how I see OMT. Granted, he probably would not have killed Ennis or his son. That is not to say, however, that he wouldn’t work hard to demean them and to destroy them emotionally. OMT is all about CONTROL, CONTROL, CONTROL.

We certainly agree that OMT is an SOB. Yet the film goes out of its way to suggest that OMT knows about Jack, shows him acting contemptuously, even hatefully, yet strangely enough does not show him saying anything homophobic.

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IMO, Mr. Twist is not keeping the ashes because he longs to have Jack in the family plot. On the contrary. He is doing it because he knows this is not what Jack wanted. Back to the whole issue of control. I may have been too strong in saying that OMT didn’t care about his son (at all). But his motivations are not out of love for Jack. He is not being a bastard to Ennis because he blames Ennis for allowing Jack to die. He is being an old SOB because that is what he is.

I'm not sure what I think about why he keeps the ashes, or whether he blames Ennis. Ruthlessly's interpretation is interesting and in some ways appealing, but, hmm ... I'm still unsure about OMT's motivations. I don't think he doesn't care about his son at all. But in any case, IMO, that's not the main point.

The main point is that, in the case of OMT, asshole does not equal homophobe. Maybe it usually does. Maybe all other embittered and vindictive old bastards in rural 1980s Wyoming are homophobes. But this one isn't, or at least we see no evidence that he is. The filmmakers want us to set aside our preconceptions -- in effect, to disregard our own prejudices.

They're doing it to make a point, but the point isn't that OMT is actually a nicer guy than he seems, nor that homophobia isn't a problem in rural Wyoming, nor that gay people are never targets of prejudice or hate crimes. On the contrary, we've seen evidence of all those things. The point is that society's homophobia not only causes all that sort of objective damage, but it also wreaks subjective damage, that it injures people's hearts and psyches and souls -- and, in the case of Ennis, wrecks his life.

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2006, 06:29:58 pm »
I must say that this recent discussion and the posts from all of you here has been very illuminating. Not only has the point about Twist Sr. and his lack of (apparent) homophobia, contrary to all expectations, been aired and examined from many angles. But also I have come to realize that though I thought this was completely clear to me,  I am now entirely uncertain exactly why Twist Sr. behaves the way he does and why he is such a nasty Son of a Bitch. In reading the various posts I agree with bits and pieces, but I don't see anything that makes me exclaim: YES, that's it!

I'm now even agreeing there's reason to consider whether the movie version of Twist Sr. might have been a closeted "queer" himself - something in his behaviour towards his son can be interpreted that way. In seeing the film portrayal, I was reminded of what Annie Proulx writes in her essay "getting movied" about the elderly ranch hand she saw in 1997 watching younger men playing pool - the man that inspired the thoughts that culminated in the BBM short story. The man she wondered whether could be "country gay". She describes  "something in his expression, a kind of bitter longing" - and I am thinking that perhaps what Twist Sr. is displaying in the film is what happens when even that longing is gone and only the bitterness (and envy) remains...... It's probably a very far stretch, too far. Still, his expression and the description in the essay suddenly struck me as fitting together.


Another thing I was going to ask everyone is what you think Ennis gets from the conversation with Lureen, apart from the painful confirmation of Jack's death.

He fully believes that the story she tells is not the truth. Does he think she knows that, and is deliberately lying? If so, does he think she knows *why* Jack got murdered? Wouldn't he then fear that she might have guessed that the fishing/hunting buddy got up to more than just fishing with Jack? Might he realize during the conversation or when thinking back on it later on in life that she managed to connect the dots when he told her he was the one who was together with Jack on Brokeback, his "favourite place"? What would he then make of the fact that nevertheless, she told him of Jack's last wish and suggested that he be the one to fulfill that wish. Would he see some sort of forgiveness, acceptance, understanding and even compassion in all of this? I know I do - I really want to cheer Lureen on as she puts down that receiver. She's just been subjected to the most dreadful blow, finally learning who Jack truly loved,- and yet she doesn't snub Ennis - she appoints him the task of fulfilling Jack's last wish.

In short, would he see the conversation with Lureen as another example of someone who knew he was queer (and further had every reason to resent him deeply) and who yet behaved extremely decently towards him?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2006, 06:34:47 pm by Mikaela »

ruthlesslyunsentimental

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2006, 07:05:54 pm »
In reading the various posts I agree with bits and pieces, but I don't see anything that makes me exclaim: YES, that's it!

As it should be!  We each have our take and we help to illuminate.  There are no definite answers.  (But we’re certainly entitled to hold our own answers near and dear.)  Besides, for my part, even if I state “Here’s what’s going on this scene…” (for example, the Twist family scene is about OMT blaming Ennis), I still leave a lot of room for a lot of other things to be going on at the same time.  I very seldom intend for my (very strongly stated and direct) opinions to reflect a finality.


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I'm now even agreeing there's reason to consider whether the movie version of Twist Sr. might have been a closeted "queer" himself … It's probably a very far stretch, too far. Still, his expression and the description in the essay suddenly struck me as fitting together.

No, it’s not a far stretch.  It reflects very good observation and examination of the film.  If it works for you in your understanding, I say, “You go girl!”  -- I share your view, by the way.


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She's just been subjected to the most dreadful blow, finally learning who Jack truly loved,- and yet she doesn't snub Ennis - she appoints him the task of fulfilling Jack's last wish.

In short, would he see the conversation with Lureen as another example of someone who knew he was queer (and further had every reason to resent him deeply) and who yet behaved extremely decently towards him?

Very good questions and deserving of a lot of inquiry and discussion.  All I can say at this time, though, is I disagree with the part of your paragraph that I quoted above.  I see it as entirely reasonable to think that Lureen figured out that Ennis was Jack’s lover.  However, because of her last comment, about the ashes, I mean, I tend to believe that what Lureen figured out during this phone call was that Jack’s favorite place was not with her and that Jack had someone else in his life who was more important to Jack than she was.  This doesn’t have to have anything to do with her figuring out it was a gay relationship.  And I think she wouldn’t have been so “kind” in her last comment, about the ashes, I mean, had she really figured out that piece of the puzzle.  Alma let it sit and stew inside her for many years.  I don’t see Lureen as doing that.  I think she would have come right out with it.  Then, she would have actually said “humping buddy” as some people have thought she said.

I see Lureen in this scene as a very believable and reasonable recently-made widow, keeping it all in the character of Lureen that had been developed thus far.  But looking at just Lureen, this scene deals her a very painful blow in her realization that **she** and **their home** were not Jack’s favorites.





Offline dly64

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2006, 08:06:25 pm »
I'm just saying it's interesting that the filmmakers chose not to focus on the external expression of homophobia (discrimination, hate crimes). In fact, Earl aside, those are conspicuously absent. Aguirre watches Jack and Ennis through the binoculars. Then we see him riding up to Jack and think "Uh-oh, now the shit's going to hit the fan!" (Ha ha ha: shit, fan -- get it?!) But in fact, it doesn't. Aguirre doesn't mention what he saw. He doesn't fire them or yell at them. In fact, he's not even all that rude, at least by his standards. Why not? (Though he does decline to rehire Jack the following year, so discrimination isn't entirely absent.)

I see your point here. (I like your “shot hitting the fan” pun. Good one!!)

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I'm not sure what I think about why he keeps the ashes, or whether he blames Ennis. Ruthlessly's interpretation is interesting and in some ways appealing, but, hmm ... I'm still unsure about OMT's motivations. I don't think he doesn't care about his son at all. But in any case, IMO, that's not the main point.

The main point is that, in the case of OMT, asshole does not equal homophobe. Maybe it usually does. Maybe all other embittered and vindictive old bastards in rural 1980s Wyoming are homophobes. But this one isn't, or at least we see no evidence that he is. The filmmakers want us to set aside our preconceptions -- in effect, to disregard our own prejudices.

You are correct on this. I am completely aware that my disdain  towards OMT distorts my view. I really can’t stand the man, so it is hard for me to acknowledge anything that is even remotely positive. Putting that aside, however, I can see your point.

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They're doing it to make a point, but the point isn't that OMT is actually a nicer guy than he seems, nor that homophobia isn't a problem in rural Wyoming, nor that gay people are never targets of prejudice or hate crimes. On the contrary, we've seen evidence of all those things. The point is that society's homophobia not only causes all that sort of objective damage, but it also wreaks subjective damage, that it injures people's hearts and psyches and souls -- and, in the case of Ennis, wrecks his life.

Now this, my friend, I agree with 100%.



[/quote]
I'm now even agreeing there's reason to consider whether the movie version of Twist Sr. might have been a closeted "queer" himself - something in his behaviour towards his son can be interpreted that way. In seeing the film portrayal, I was reminded of what Annie Proulx writes in her essay "getting movied" about the elderly ranch hand she saw in 1997 watching younger men playing pool - the man that inspired the thoughts that culminated in the BBM short story. The man she wondered whether could be "country gay". She describes  "something in his expression, a kind of bitter longing" - and I am thinking that perhaps what Twist Sr. is displaying in the film is what happens when even that longing is gone and only the bitterness (and envy) remains...... It's probably a very far stretch, too far. Still, his expression and the description in the essay suddenly struck me as fitting together.

What cracks me up is that I threw this idea out previously … I think somewhere in this thread. Although I was being somewhat sarcastic (which is a common reaction for me), there actually may be some merit to the idea. Obviously we will never know for sure. I just find it interesting that some of OMT’s bitter reaction towards Ennis and Jack could  be that he had wished for a love like that himself. Think about two things that mirror Jack:
1.   He has only one child … a son
2.   He is not particularly loving to his wife (in fact, rather cold … which Jack has become that way. At the benefit, Jack pretty much sticks it to Lureen when he asks LaShawn to dance. Jack also makes it clear, by the time of lake scene, that there isn’t anything there between the two of them).
Now, I could also list a plethora of things that distinguish OMT and Jack. I just think it is an interesting concept to pursue!

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Another thing I was going to ask everyone is what you think Ennis gets from the conversation with Lureen, apart from the painful confirmation of Jack's death.

He fully believes that the story she tells is not the truth. Does he think she knows that, and is deliberately lying? If so, does he think she knows *why* Jack got murdered? Wouldn't he then fear that she might have guessed that the fishing/hunting buddy got up to more than just fishing with Jack? Might he realize during the conversation or when thinking back on it later on in life that she managed to connect the dots when he told her he was the one who was together with Jack on Brokeback, his "favourite place"? What would he then make of the fact that nevertheless, she told him of Jack's last wish and suggested that he be the one to fulfill that wish. Would he see some sort of forgiveness, acceptance, understanding and even compassion in all of this? I know I do - I really want to cheer Lureen on as she puts down that receiver. She's just been subjected to the most dreadful blow, finally learning who Jack truly loved,- and yet she doesn't snub Ennis - she appoints him the task of fulfilling Jack's last wish.

In short, would he see the conversation with Lureen as another example of someone who knew he was queer (and further had every reason to resent him deeply) and who yet behaved extremely decently towards him?

There are a lot of great ideas in all you are saying. So as not to give a complete dissertation (which I have been known to do), I will try to focus on a few points rather than all of them.

From Ennis’ POV, I don’t know that he sees Lureen as deliberately lying (even though we could start a whole new thread debating if Lureen was, in reality, telling the truth). It is interesting to surmise what Ennis is thinking on the telephone (in regards to what Lureen knew or didn’t know) because he cannot see her facial expressions like we can. IMO, it becomes obvious to us, the audience, that she puts two and two together and realizes that Ennis is the love of Jack’s life. But does Ennis realize this? The only time he might get an inkling is when she says … “I suppose they’d appreciate if his wishes were carried out … about the ashes, I mean.”  I agree that she is very decent, despite the fact that her suspicions are realized in a matter of a minute. By the same token, although we see pain cross her face, she shuts herself off from her feelings. On the end of the line she sounds accommodating, but cold.

There are a few people that Ennis comes across who have deduced his sexual orientation: Aguirre (but Ennis is not aware of this), Alma, Lureen, OMT, Mrs. Twist, and (IMO) Alma, Jr. Some reactions have been compassionate, some disdainful, some bitter, but none violent. This doesn’t detract from Ennis’ frame of reference … that being gay is something to be despised and hidden. Although he knows by the end of the film that he loves Jack and only Jack, he cannot help but to keep all of those feelings “in the closet” (so to speak). Does he realize that he wouldn’t have been killed if he would have loved Jack openly? I can’t say. He has been given some opportunities to experience various reactions from others … none of which lead to murder. I do think he has many regrets. One being that, had he to do over again, he would have made room in his (open) life for Jack.
Diane

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2006, 08:45:33 pm »
He fully believes that the story she tells is not the truth. Does he think she knows that, and is deliberately lying? If so, does he think she knows *why* Jack got murdered?

I don't know the answer to either. But re the first one, I don't think at that moment it matters to him whether she's lying or misinformed -- he's too focused on his grief for Jack. Re the second one, again I think he's so focused on his grief he's sort of oblivious to the fact that Lureen gets it.

And I do think she gets it. I think she has realized gradually over the years that Jack is gay. The ever-blonder hair, the increasing hardness and bitterness, the focus on work, the "husbands never want to dance with their wives," the husband who can't imagine why wives would spruce up just to go to bed, the phoned-in marriage. And of course if Jack was murdered and she knows it, that would be confirmation.

So she picks up the receiver knowing that Jack was gay, maybe knowing about Randall, but not about Ennis. But during the course of the call, she figures everything out. Even when she says, "you're the fishin buddy, the huntin buddy, I know that" it may have been dawning on her. Her voice doesn't give anything away, but the "I know that" immediately following the buddy stuff carries a slight hint of it, it's a slightly odd way to put it. But her little squeaks and the tears in her eyes after "we was herdin sheep up on Brokeback" and "we was good friends" show her putting it together for sure.

What is she putting together? Well, she already knows Jack is gay, so it's not a huge leap for her to realize Jack wasn't going up there to fish. But his ashes request and "it was his favorite place," along with what Ennis tells her about the summer of '63, also make her realize that Jack loved Ennis -- had loved him since before they were married, in fact.
 
So yeah, under those circumstances, telling Ennis to get in touch with Jacks' folks was a really, really nice thing for her to do. (That's why I always leap to the defense of Lureen, along with Ennis and now, I guess, Old Man Twist. People are so unfair to her!) And when she says "if his wishes was carried out ... about the ashes I mean" she's suggesting, for whatever mysterious reason of her own, that she knows in contrast to the ashes his wishes in life wasn't carried out.

Quote
In short, would he see the conversation with Lureen as another example of someone who knew he was queer (and further had every reason to resent him deeply) and who yet behaved extremely decently towards him?

Yes, but only in retrospect, because again he is too grief-stricken to pay much attention at the moment.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2006, 11:39:25 pm »
BUMP!!
 :D
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2007, 11:06:08 pm »
bumping the good old questionnaires again!
 :D
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie