condiments

[serious crayons]

Why do some of you think Ennis was not a chauvinist? Most men were like that during the 1960's, so it's pretty much expected that both Ennis and Jack behave that way too.

Because this movie continually asks us to set aside our preconceptions and judge people not on our expectations but on the behavior we are shown. For example, the movie shows us that our preconceptions of how cowboys behave when they're alone together may not have been accurate. In other words, it's partly about looking beyond cultural stereotypes.

I also wonder why some of you think calling Ennis a chauvinist is an insult to the character.

Because sexism, IMO, is a bad thing. Even in 1960s Wyoming it was a bad thing, whether most people thought so then or not.

It pretty much explains Ennis behavior towards Jack too.

Hunh?

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

Thanks for agreeing with me, Ruthlessly, and also for your excellent analyses of the two scenes.

My pleasure, ma’am.

Regarding Ennis, maybe he's afraid not only of abandonment, but also of what a divorce might suggest about him. Maybe he has picked up on vibes between Monroe and Alma; the rest of us certainly have. And if his wife refuses a traditional domestic role (serving dinner), if she leaves him, especially if she leaves him for another man (and kind of a wimpy man at that!), then what does that say about Ennis? Could it be more evidence that he's ... um, not the marrying kind?

Yep.  I have no problem with this at all.  It certainly is in Ennis’ character.  There’s no reason why several aspects of a character’s character cannot be involved at the same time – as long as the aspects are truly part of the character’s character.

You've convinced me that the grocery-store scene is not pointless. Now that you mention it, I can see that in the pre-camping scene when Alma, in that panicky voice, brings up Ennis' job and Ennis blows it off ("That foreman, he owes me ...") it does carry a faint reminder of this grocery store exchange.

Yep.  As I always say, the first place to look for interpretation to an otherwise confusing scene or reference is at the previous scene or two and the one or ones that immediately follow.  All of the scenes in the movie transition perfectly and each time for a reason.

Why do some of you think Ennis was not a chauvinist? Most men were like that during the 1960's, so it's pretty much expected that both Ennis and Jack behave that way too.

You have just given one of the strongest answers to your own question.  As has been noted, this film is great because it does not give us what’s expected.  Most men in the 1960s weren’t gay… most women in the 1960s didn’t ride horses in competition… most men in the 1960s didn’t show their children dead bodies… etc.  All true statements.  So even if we expect these things in our cast of characters, we have to take how they are presented to us – we have to accept them for what and who they are.

Ennis and Jack were specifically portrayed as not displaying many qualities that we associate with a sexist or chauvinistic man.  And Ennis was displayed as a man who specifically did things that we do not expect to see in a sexist or chauvinistic man.  Someone in a post above said that when Ennis tended to the kids while Alma did the laundry, he looked angry at Alma.  I just don’t see this.  He was simply being a good dad – he practically darted into their room, and on his own accord.  Certainly he was frustrated with the situation.  Who isn’t frustrated trying to comfort two crying infants?

Finally, there are many emotions that play out in the film.  When looking to interpret them, it’s best to go back to the character as he or she has been presented to us.  Look at what the character has said and done and what things are important – what are the driving emotions and issues behind each character.  Sexism and chauvinism are not portrayed as being driving issues in this film.  And this is what makes the film great.  It creates complex characters but it does not allow otherwise minor character points to muddy the theme of the film -- the destructive effects of rural homophobia.

As I said above, in Jack's case it's different because he wasn't the main provider, but he was a chauvinist too.

I know the film pretty well and I’m pretty good at dissecting it and analyzing it, etc.; but, this one is a real stumper – both assertions.

[opinionista]

Because this movie continually asks us to set aside our preconceptions and judge people not on our expectations but on the behavior we are shown. For example, the movie shows us that our preconceptions of how cowboys behave when they're alone together may not have been accurate. In other words, it's partly about looking beyond cultural stereotypes.

Because sexism, IMO, is a bad thing. Even in 1960s Wyoming it was a bad thing, whether most people thought so then or not.

Hunh?

Well, I agree with what you say about the movie encouraging us to look beyond stereotypes, but still think Ennis lives in a world of unrelenting chauvinism. And so does Jack. Otherwise the story doesn't make sense, IMO.

I can't discuss it any further because I don't have time. But I would like to explain the last line which you answered Hunh? The roots of chauvinsm and homophobia are the same. It's the same kind of mind frame. That doesn't mean that a chauvinist is always an homophobic or vice versa, it depends on many things, but the roots are the same.

Ennis and Jack were specifically portrayed as not displaying many qualities that we associate with a sexist or chauvinistic man

How about the scene in which he tells Alma she has to serve the food? He says it's your duty to serve it, or something like that. That's a chauvinistic behavior. The topic of the movie is not about Ennis being a chauvinist, so obviously we wont see that many scenes where he is behaving like one. It just a part of the character. Those scenes are there to give us an idea of what is his frame of mind. That's all.

[Front-Ranger]

You can watch the movie on several different levels. On the sociological level, this scene helps show the poverty of the little struggling family as well as the changing times, in that Alma Has a job and she doesn't just automatically cave when Ennis shows up to dump the children on her.

But on another level, this is the first of three times that Alma protests Ennis's behavior. The other two are when he wants her to stay and serve dinner and then when she wants him to "protect" her against another pregnancy. Certain actions happen in threes in this movie. I haven't quite figured out why.

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

How about the scene in which he tells Alma she has to serve the food? He says it's your duty to serve it, or something like that. That's a chauvinistic behavior. The topic of the movie is not about Ennis being a chauvinist, so obviously we wont see that many scenes where he is behaving like one. It just a part of the character. Those scenes are there to give us an idea of what is his frame of mind. That's all.

Yes, I have no problem with agreeing that there are little bits of sexism or chauvinism, but what I was getting at in the line of mine that you quoted is that the film gives us a stronger message against their being sexists and chauvinists than it gives us a message that they are.

The little bits of sexism and chauvinism are very insignificant to what is really going on in each scene where such things do appear.  One of the things that makes this film great is that its subtext is almost always much more important than its text.

[Marge_Innavera]

Clearly, he does not value Alma's job--maybe even resents that she he has it. His attitude is that his job is the important one (he might get fired if any of the calves die), and Alma's job doesn't matter--never mind if she got fired for taking off in the middle of her shift. She's a woman and his wife, and her place is in the home. Like I said, male chauvinist.

A bit of defense here from a straight female who's been a feminist all her life:

IMO, there's a legit reason for Ennis' annoyance if you look at it as a long-term thing. He mentions to Jack that he's saving for a place of his own and mentions it in the same remark where he talks about marrying Alma. The impression I got was that he saw that, mistakenly or not, as something they were going to share. When Alma talks him into moving to town, his initial reaction is that it will be more expensive but in the next scene where you see him, there they are living above the laundromat,* and Alma as well as her husband has a job. The impression I got in that sequence was that even if Jack hadn't come back into Ennis' life, with the resulting "fishing trips" derailing various jobs, that was the beginning of the end of Ennis' idea of having their own place.

So I'd interpret at least some of his reaction in that scene to somewhat justified pissed-offness that she's gotten what she wanted in that sense but now doesn't want to deal with the consequences.

One last thing - one thing I noticed in the scenes before that was that at that point, Ennis was actually a lot more closely involved in taking care of the children than most young fathers of that era were.  In the rented house scene, he goes into the next room to deal with both crying kids on his own and in the bedroom scene later he's clearly been the one to put them to bed. However that might look today, it was really pretty remarkable for a young father in that era.

Not a PC view, but that's my take on it.


* Since there's a scene with Alma washing not only her own clothes but her husband's and two kids' clothes by hand on a washboard, I can certainly see how living above a laundromat would have a definite allure.  Even with running water in the house, that's a hard, boring, time-consuming chore.

[Marty]

Hi, everyone.  I've enjoyed reading the discussions here, and I'm looking forward to more! 

What we know for sure about Ennis is his investment in "the way things are supposed to be."  His struggle is reconciling his reality with his "supposed to's.:  He's supposed to get married, supposed to have kids, supposed to have a family, supposed to support them, supposed to be there when the calves are born, and supposed to not love another man.  He doesn't have a clear picture of how he's supposed to do all that (since his parents died and he was raised, then more or less abandoned, by siblings) and he's keenly aware of how he's failed in all of the "supposed to's."

I saw the grocery store scene and the extra shift scene in that light.  In both, he's being slapped in the face by his own failure to meet that standard.  If he was making enough money, his wife wouldn't have to go to work.  If he had succeeded in doing what he was supposed to do, she'd have been at home taking care of the kids.  It's not about whose job is more important, it's about his realization of his own inability to be a good man (according to the unrealistic standard that he perceives to have been set).  His real anger is toward himself, and because that's too uncomfortable for him to acknowledge, it is expressed at Alma, the evidence of all his failings.

I hope that doesn't sound too psychoanalytical.   That's just kind of how I see the character.

Marty

[serious crayons]

Hi Marge and Marty, you both make excellent points! Neither too un-PC, nor too psychoanalytical, for the record. They deepen my understanding of that situation.

Marge, you're right; I tend to forget about Ennis' "I'm savin for a place, myself," because it seems so unrealistic. But, whether feasible or not, it clearly was his dream.

And Marty, I agree that "supposed to" is pretty much Ennis' cardinal rule. He's supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em; in a larger, more abstract sense -- the responsibility to fulfill expectations and duty -- it's his governing motto (along with standing what you can't fix).

Welcome to BetterMost, both of you! Marty's first post and Marge's fourth or so? You are off to a great start and I look forward to seeing you around. 

[Ellemeno]

Thank you, Everyone.  I was swayed a bit in this direction by one, in the other direction by another.  I love that about this place.  I'm intrigued by what Lee wrote about significant things coming in threes in this film.  Do we have a thread on that?  Could someone (Lee?) start one, so I may learn?

[dly64]

I brought this thread back up because, even though I had not responded to it initially, this discussion has stuck in my mind.

I have watched this scene over and over and have found much of the conversation (in this thread) enlightening. The one thing I didn’t really read is the role of Monroe. IMO, Monroe is a key element to this scene. It establishes his infatuation with Alma and it sets him up as a responsible person who comes to Alma’s aid after Ennis drops the kids “in her lap”.

I really like Marty’s theory …

I saw the grocery store scene and the extra shift scene in that light.  In both, he's being slapped in the face by his own failure to meet that standard.  If he was making enough money, his wife wouldn't have to go to work.  If he had succeeded in doing what he was supposed to do, she'd have been at home taking care of the kids.  It's not about whose job is more important, it's about his realization of his own inability to be a good man (according to the unrealistic standard that he perceives to have been set).  His real anger is toward himself, and because that's too uncomfortable for him to acknowledge, it is expressed at Alma, the evidence of all his failings.

This interpretation goes in tandem with the scene where Alma tells Ennis she’d have more kids if he’d support them. Ennis’ “failings” as a provider is only reemphasized when we see Ennis at Thanksgiving. Alma now lives in a house and is pregnant … which shows Ennis that she is willing to have more children because she is now married to a man who can financially support her (and the girls).

I also wonder whether or not Ennis sees his own irresponsibility come out of his relationship with Jack. What I mean by this … in the lake scene, Jack says to Ennis: “You used to come away easy. Now it’s like seeing the pope.” Ennis then replies, “Jack, I gotta work. In them earlier days, I’d just quit the job. You ever hear of child support?” Now Ennis is forced to be responsible. Is this just another slap in Ennis’ face? Another instance of Ennis’ failure? Just a thought.