Author Topic: Jack's questionnaire  (Read 17507 times)

Offline Brown Eyes

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Jack's questionnaire
« on: July 10, 2006, 08:42:11 pm »
Heya,

So, since I've been nominated, I thought I'd go ahead and take on the challenge of formulating a Jack questionnaire.  It mostly mirrors the first Ennis questionnaire (that I'm aware of).  I've taken out certain questions that really don't apply to him and added a few.  But,  you'll recognize some of the questions.  And, I've preserved the original moderator's note (I hope you don't mind Katherine) from the Ennis questionniare in case people need the technical reference.  I'll refrain from going first here in answering the questions.  Though, in doing this, I'm realizing how much easier some of these questions are regarding Jack vs. Ennis.  I'm fascinated by this. 


MODERATOR'S NOTE:  To fill out the questionnaire:

1) Hit "quote" in the previous post.

2) Go to your new message and REMOVE the "quote" and "/quote" coding around it so it can be copied again easily by the next person, with the color coding intact.

3) Answer questions in a new color (or in a color that hasn't been used by the people immediately above you).

4) Your post, with your responses, will be deleted eventually, as others copy yours and add their own. So if you undergo a major change of opinion and want to change your answers, repeat steps 1 and 2 and make the required changes in your answers (for brevity's sake, try not to do this just for the sake of minor changes of wording).

Have fun! If so inspired, feel free to start a new questionnaire of your own.

Latjoreme/Katherine





Regarding his homosexuality, would/ did Jack:


-- Describe himself that way to others?

-- Use the word "queer" or "homosexual" to describe himself to himself?
         
-- Reluctantly in his heart of hearts consider the possibility that those words might apply to him?
         
-- Notice he's attracted to men?  If so, how early in his life is he aware of this?

-- Wish he weren't?

-- Lie when he says "me neither"?

-- Convince himself almost 100% completely that he isn’t?

-- Recognize that his relationship with Ennis constitutes a gay relationship?

-- Recognize that his relationship with Ennis constitutes a “thing” that he cannot understand or name with its correct, generally-accepted name?
         
-- Believe it's a huge exception to the rule, that he's not "really" gay and otherwise would be attracted only to women?
                   
-- Ever have been involved with another man if not for Ennis?

-- Blame Ennis for him (Jack) being gay?

-- Blame Ennis for keeping their relationship at a stand-still (i.e. "that's all we got boy, fuckin' all.")?
         
-- Blame Ennis for keeping him from leading the life he really wants?

-- Wish he had never gotten involved with Ennis in the first place?

Related questions:

-- Why did Jack go to Mexico?  Was he punishing Ennis in some way?  How did Jack feel about his trip to Mexico?  Did he go more than once?

-- Did Jack's parents know he was gay?

-- Was Jack a virgin when he met Ennis?


Regarding love, does Jack:

-- Use that word when talking to Ennis?     

-- Use that word when talking to himself?
         
-- Notice that he exhibits the feelings and longings and behavior that the rest of us would associate with the word "love"?

-- Know truly that Ennis loved him even though the word is unspoken in the movie/ book?

-- Wish that he and Ennis could be comfortable enough to use the word "love" freely? 

Misc.

-- Is Jack as worried and fearful about homophobia and violence as Ennis?
 
-- Is Jack as worried and fearful about people "knowing" as Ennis?
         
-- If Ennis had given the word, would Jack have divorced Lureen (almost immediately) following Ennis's divorce?

-- Is Jack as interested in being a father as Ennis is?

-- How far did Jack get in planning the cow and calf operation?  Either in his head or with his parents up on Lightning Flat?  Did he really have a concrete plan, or was he just dreaming?

--What did Jack mean when he said "if you don't never know the rest."?  Is he only talking about Randall and/or Mexico or is there more?  Is he also refering to how much he's loved Ennis over the years?  Essentially, does he also mean "if you don't ever find/ know about those shirts" (or any other measure of the extent of his love)?

--Did Jack hate his father?

-- How much did Jack tell his parents about Ennis?  Did Mrs. Twist know about the relationship between Jack and Ennis because of finding the shirts?  Or did Jack confide in her?

--Would November have been the true test of their relationship?  How much longer would Jack hold on to hope that things would move forward with Ennis?

--Could Jack really have quit Ennis?

--Would Jack have shown up in November?

--Would Jack have been happy if he ranched up with Randall?  Or would he be settling... and know it?

--Did Jack really expect to see Ennis again immediately after coming down from Brokeback?  Should Jack have insisted more strongly that the relationship continue immediately after coming down from the mountain?

-- Did Jack have any idea of how heartbroken Ennis was during the descent from Brokeback.  Without Ennis telling him, would Jack have known Ennis was upset enough about leaving him to have the dry heaves/ cry?

--Why did Jack wait 4 years before contacting Ennis?

--Shortly before his death, was Jack becoming increasingly reckless?  Desperate?  Was he giving up hope?

« Last Edit: July 11, 2006, 12:04:26 am by atz75 »
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Jack's questionnaire
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2006, 11:43:38 pm »

-- Blame his feelings for Ennis for keeping him from leading the life he really wants?
    Diane – Not sure I understand this question … I am going to say no. It’s not his feelings for Ennis that prevent him from leading the life he wants. It is Ennis’ fear that prevents them having a life together.

Hey there!

Thanks for all your thoughtful replies.  Sorry about this question... It was sort of a typo.  It should have read Blame Ennis for keeping him from leading the life he really wants?  I'm going to change it in the original post.
cheers!
Amanda
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Jack's questionnaire
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2006, 11:50:31 pm »
ok ok Diane's answers were posted first, so I am goin to do a great big cut-and-paste job here, just give me a min....


LOL!  I definitely applaud your efforts here, Jane! 


Sorry again for making this questionnaire so long.  It turned out to be fun and, as I mentioned elsewhere, I got carried away.
Hope you don't mind too much.
 ;)
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Jack's questionnaire
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2006, 09:57:45 am »
Wow! This is a whopper of a post!


Regarding his homosexuality, would/ did Jack:

-- Describe himself that way to others?
     Diane – no
     Jane  -  no.
     Amanda- no
      Mark-no
     Katherine -- no.
     Ruthlessly – No.
     Mikaela -- No   

-- Use the word "queer" or "homosexual" to describe himself to himself?
      Diane – yes, most likely.
     Jane  -  yes.
     Amanda- yes.
     Mark-no, most definitely not queer, that would be considerd effeminate.
     Katherine -- he might not have liked those terms, though he'd understand the meanings fit.
      Ruthlessly – Yes, but I think it’s a connection he made between his actions and his feelings over time. 
       Mikaela -- Yes, he'd use the available / commonly used word for what he knew himself to be 

 
-- Reluctantly in his heart of hearts consider the possibility that those words might apply to him?
     Diane – As stated above …. Yes. I think he was certainly more accepting of this fact then was Ennis.
     Jane  -  yes, and not reluctantly either.  I think Jake accepted himself for what he was, he just did not advertise it.
     Amanda- Yes, I agree.  Jack was much more self-aware and comfortable in his own skin.     
     Mark-homosexual but not queer.
     Katherine -- yes, and not reluctantly. 
     Ruthlessly – Yes.
     Mikaela -- Yes, though not reluctantly   


-- Notice he's attracted to men?  If so, how early in his life is he aware of this?
    Diane – Definitely. Unsure how old he would have been, but I would guess when he was quite young. Possibly preteen.
    Jane    -  yes.  Probably since he was a young boy, as young as six or seven.
    Amanda- I know this is a wierd question in regards to Jack.  But, it was in the Ennis questionnaire, so I kept it.  Yes of course Jack notices.  I think it all goes back to boyhood cowboy fantasies... that little cowboy toy in his room, for instance.  I think early cowboy fantasies were probably important for Ennis too... of course I have no evidence for this.  Just a hunch.
    Mark-yes, as a teenager. In the book there is that picture of the moviesta rin his room.
    Katherine -- what everybody else said.
     Ruthlessly – Yes.  Very early on.
     Mikaela -- Yes, and from early on. No way to say how early.

-- Wish he weren't?
     Diane – Hmmm … this one is a little harder for me to answer. I would guess yes, he wishes he wasn’t … primarily because it made his life more difficult and complicated.
     Jane  -  not as concerns Ennis.  I don't think he would wish his love for Ennis away.  Wish he were not queer so he would fit in to regular society without having something to hide?  Yeah, he probably did wish that sometimes.
     Amanda- Yeah, I think that especially because of Ennis he's quite happy with his sexuality.  I'd guess he'd be like that anyway.
     Mark-Not after Ennis
     Katherine -- Before Ennis, he might not have been thrilled, but he could live with it. After Ennis, like you all said, he's happy.
     Ruthlessly – No.  Ennis or not.  I think he wishes he hadn’t gotten married.
     Mikaela -- No,....... not after Ennis. I found this more difficult to answer than I thought - I can't imagine that Jack wouldn't also at times have wished he weren't, at least because he'd been meeting societal expectations and might have had an easier life -, not having to hide his true self to those around him. But still, - not after Ennis.


-- Lie when he says "me neither"?
    Diane – I am going to be opposite of a few of you, I know. I am saying that, no, he believes that he is “not queer” (this answer depends on the day. As for today, I am saying that he is being honest).
     Jane  -  not sure.
     Amanda- I think definitely yes.  I think he's trying to calm Ennis down and tell him anything that might encourage Ennis to want to continue the relationship.
    Mark-no,I think they both associate queer with effeminate.
    Katherine -- He might distance himself from the word itself, but he knows it applies.
      Ruthlessly – **If** Jack associates queer with being effeminate, then No.  If he just understands the word as “prefers men,” then Yes.
     Mikaela -- Yes.   

-- Convince himself almost 100% completely that he isn’t?
    Diane – you are putting in some difficult questions!! I would say no. I think, especially by the end, he knows he is inescapably gay.
     Jane  -  no, he knows he is queer.
     Amanda- Again, this was an Ennis question... so I kept it.  I agree, he knows he's gay.  It amazes me how much more confident, I feel at least, in answering some of these questions about Jack.  Why is his character so much easier to understand?  His life with Lureen, for instance, really feels like just a show, while Ennis's marriage with Alma feels more complicated.
    Mark-no as others have stated
    Katherine -- No, he's convinced 100% that he is.
     Ruthlessly – No.
     Mikaela -- No way   


-- Recognize that his relationship with Ennis constitutes a gay relationship?
    Diane – Initially … I don’t know. Certainly by the time he suggests the “sweet life,” he is acknowledging that it is a gay relationship.
     Jane  -  yes.
     Amanda- yes.
     Mark-the term gay was not used in those days.
     Katherine -- wouldn't use the term, of course, but recognizes what it is.
     Ruthlessly – I’ll go with “a homosexual relationship.”  But there is a distinction in using the word “gay” in the early ‘60s.  But, by the mid-‘70s, Yes.
     Mikaela -- Yes. (Though I understand he wouldn't use that exact term.)   


-- Recognize that his relationship with Ennis constitutes a “thing” that he cannot understand or name with its correct, generally-accepted name?
     Diane – no. By the time of their reunion, Jack understands.
     Jane  -  no, it is Ennis who looks at it as this "thing", Jack in his heart knows that it is love.  Even as far back as "that's the most words you've spoken in two weeks" Jack gives Ennis a look of pure love.
     Amanda- I agree that Jack could name it as love.  I think he's wanting to tell Ennis that he loves him during the "sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" speech.  I think he's too afraid of Ennis's possible reaction if he were to actually use the word love.
     Mark-he knows how he feels 
     Katherine -- Agreed, he'd know it is love.      
     Ruthlessly – No.  Jack can understand it and he can name it correctly - Love.
     Mikaela -- No. He understands it and can name it.


-- Believe it's a huge exception to the rule, that he's not "really" gay and otherwise would be attracted only to women?
     Diane – No … especially by the end of his life. He knows completely that he is gay and has sexual needs that only a man can fulfill.
     Jane  -  no, he knows he is gay all the way.  He is not even attracted to women all that much, on the dance floor with Lureen, she is enraptured, and then we see Jack, so sad, you just know he's thinking of Ennis.
     Amanda- No.  We're given a lot more evidence about Jack's sexuality in general (Jimbo, Randall, Mexico).  We don't see him ever try to have an affair with a woman.  Other than the marriage of convenience with Lureen.
     Mark-he knows he wants Ennis.
    Katherine -- Never for a moment thinks he is attracted to women, including Lureen.
     Ruthlessly – I agree with Diane, Jane, Amanda, and Katherine.
     Mikaela -- No.   

                     
-- Ever have been involved with another man if not for Ennis?
    Diane – Yes, I think he would have been involved with another man. In love with another man? That’s a completely different question.
     Jane  -  yes, he would have been and he already had been involved with another man.
     Amanda- Yes, again this was from Ennis's questionnaire and I flipped it.  Just for fun.  We see Jack really try to pick up at least one guy (Jimbo).  So, it seems clear that he'd have found another guy if Ennis had never come into the picture.
     Mark-yes if not for Ennis
     Katherine -- Yes, and it might have been Randall! (Because his life could have gone the same way sans Ennis, so he still could have met Randall.)
      Ruthlessly – Yes.  I’m going to get a hell of a backlash for this one… but I also believe that while he would always have love in his heart for Ennis, if he did in fact decide to go with Randall, he would have had love for Randall, too.  Maybe not at first.  At first, it could have been just sex.  But if Jack had lived and if Jack had made a decision to divorce his wife and leave his family and move Randall up to Lightning Flat, then I think Jack would have found love for Randall.  I don’t think Jack could be in that kind of committed relationship without having love for the other.  I also believe he loved Lureen – just not “in love” with her.
     Mikaela -- Yes. (If Jack seriously thought of living with Randall he must have thought he could learn to care for him, or had more likely already learned it. Though a dreamer, I think Jack at the same time was realist enough to realize that Ennis was a once-in-a-lifetime, and if he couldn't have him, then other aspects of love/a committed and affectionate relationship with another man might be less fulfilling, but still be some sort of *love* - and available to boot. Certainly same with Lureen. I think he had quite a lot of affection for his wife.)   


-- Blame Ennis for him (Jack) being gay?
    Diane – No
     Jane  -  no f'n way!
    Amanda- No, I don't think Jack thinks that way.
    Mark-no
Katherine -- no.
     Ruthlessly – No.
     Mikaela -- No way.   


-- Blame Ennis for keeping their relationship at a stand-still (i.e. "that's all we got boy, fuckin' all.")?
     Diane – Definitely. If Jack had his way, they would have had a life together. (A “real good life”)
     Jane  -  Absolutely yes, he blames Ennis.
     Amanda- Yes, and we see how this wears on Jack over the years.
     Mark-He understand why Ennis wont leave his family
    Katherine -- Yes, he blames Ennis and is frustrated, but he also understands and for the most part forgives him   
      Ruthlessly – Yes.  Absolutely – blame.
     Mikaela -- Yes, certainly.   


-- Blame Ennis for keeping him from leading the life he really wants?
    Diane – Not sure I understand this question … I am going to say no. It’s not his feelings for Ennis that prevent him from leading the life he wants. It is Ennis’ fear that prevents them having a life together.
     Jane  -  that is not a logical question, the life he really wants includes Ennis, so of course his feelings for Ennis are intertwined, not able to blame them, really.
     Amanda- I fixed the question a bit... It was confusing the way I originally worded it.  It's also sort of a trick question.  Yes, I think he does certainly in the last argument scene.  He believes that Ennis has thrown up all sorts of barriers to a perfectly excellent relationship that was worth a shot.  Jack wanted a stable relationship with a partner that he loved and could build a life with.  This was a sham with Lureen, and made impossible with Ennis.  So, yes, I think Jack blames Ennis here.  It's not fair, because it's truly not all Ennis's fault.  Ennis I believe tries his best with Jack (within the context of how Ennis thinks and perceives the world before Jack's death.  Everything... especially Ennis's mindset is different after Jack's death).
     Mark-somewhat but again he understands his fears and comitments
     Katherine -- Again, I think he blames Ennis but mostly forgives him
     Ruthlessly – I think Jack blames Ennis for Ennis’ intransigence.  But I think Jack blames himself for loving Ennis so much that Jack cannot seek a committed, loving relationship with another man who will not be so intransigent.  Jack wants a loving, committed relationship with Ennis.  And Jack knows he cannot get that.  He also knows that he can’t move beyond Ennis.  So, he does blame himself.
     Mikaela -- Yes, because the life he really wants is the life Ennis refuses to commit to.   


-- Wish he had never gotten involved with Ennis in the first place?
    Diane – Absolutely, 100% no.
     Jane  -  yes, I think sometimes when he is very sad and in the dumps thinking that Ennis will never agree to be with him more, yes, then I think he does wish he'd never met him.
     Amanda- No, it was the best thing in Jack's life.
     Mark-NO!!!!
     Katherine -- I think there must have been moments when he wishes he'd never met Ennis (so he wouldn't have to wish he knew how to quit him!). But overall, no, Ennis is the love of his life and despite the frustrations he is much happier in the relationship than he would be without it.
     Ruthlessly – I’m going to answer this the way I answered it with Ennis – at least what I meant to say with Ennis.  As an on-going, life-defining feeling, NO!  But, c’mon, obviously Jack has gone through moments of wishing he had never gotten involved with Ennis in the first place.  It’s only natural to feel that way from time to time – especially when the one you love seems to apparently hold you back.  Again, Jack does not wish he had never gotten involved with Ennis as an overarching theme of his life.  But, Jack, like all of us, succumbs to disillusionment and regret from time to time – and he kept bouncing back.
     Mikaela -- NO!!! (Well, OK - at times, when he was feeling the most depressed about their situation.) But still my answer is a resounding No!   


Related questions:

-- Why did Jack go to Mexico?  Was he punishing Ennis in some way?  How did Jack feel about his trip to Mexico?  Did he go more than once?
     Diane – this is a loaded question! I think he went to Mexico out of frustration and need. I don’t think he was (intentionally) punishing Ennis (even though, ultimately, Ennis was hurt by it). I think Jack saw it as many men who solicit prostitutes ,,, purely a person to insert a hard dick and a way to get his nuts off. IMO, he went to Mexico once.
     Jane  -  to have sex.  No, he wasn't doing it to punish Ennis, he was going there to fill a need.  I don't think he felt good about his trip(s) to Mexico, I think they satisfied him sexually but left him sad anyway.  Yes, I think he went more than once in the 7 to 8 years since Ennis’ divorce.
     Amanda- I think this is the first very explicit sign of Jack's desperation.  And, on some - maybe even subconscious level - I think Jack is punishing Ennis a bit with this behavior. I think he realizes that he's punishing Ennis (or can use it to punish Ennis... spur his jealousy, etc.) in the argument when he doesn't back down over the Mexico topic. But, primarily, yes, I'm sure Jack thinks of it as pure physical need.  Still, ultimately I think he finds it humiliating... That's how I interpret the look on his face in the alley in Mexico.  I don't know if he went more than once... Maybe.
     Mark-See the hollow look on his face when he is there?
     Katherine -- He goes to fill a need but of course it really only fills part of a need. There might have been a bit of spite for Ennis involved the first time, after the post-divorce scene. But overall he finds the experience bleak and dehumanizing. Still, I think he went more than once, judging from his quick and vehement "Hell yes, I've been to Mexico!" as opposed to, "Well, yeah, once, a long timeago."
     Ruthlessly – Punish Ennis – NO!  Fulfill his sexual desires – Yes.  More than once – I’ll bet he went to Mexico once or twice for every time he met up with Ennis.
     Mikaela -- I think he started going there fairly regularly after the first time. Certainly he went more than once. He wasn't punishing Ennis - he was trying to fulfill the physical need that was so strongly connected with his emotional need and love for Ennis - neither of which Ennis was able or willing to fulfill. It seems clear it is quite an empty and hollow experience that wears on Jack's soul.   


-- Did Jack's parents know he was gay?
    Diane – Yes. But I don’t think it was anything he said. I think it was deduced. I also think his mother found the shirts.
     Jane  -  yes, they both knew.
     Amanda- yes.
     yes Mark
     Katherine -- Yes, deduced long ago.
     Ruthlessly – Yes.  I agree with Diane’s line.
     Mikaela -- Yes.   



-- Was Jack a virgin when he met Ennis?
     Diane – No. However, I don’t think he had ever had sex with another man. Not that he didn’t desire it. I just don’t think it occurred.
     Jane -  no, he been with a man before, IMO.
     Amanda- I go back and forth on this one.  Maybe.
     Mark-The book says he was
     Katherine -- I lean toward no, and it was with a man.
     Ruthlessly – The film doesn’t tell us one way or the other, but the film gives evidence that he was sexually experienced.  And I believe it would have been with other boys.  Experimenting, being used as a butt by some older teenage guy who couldn’t score with the girls, etc.
     Mikaela -- No, and his prior experience was with another boy /man   


Regarding love, does Jack:

-- Use that word when talking to Ennis?
    Diane – Obviously, no. I don’t think either one was ever comfortable using the word “love”.
     Jane  -  no, never.
     Amanda- No, but he wants to.
     Mark-no,he is so carefull what he says io Ennis
     Katherine -- No, I think he is careful about Ennis and also feels he can express his love without using the word.
     Ruthlessly – No.
     Mikaela -- No. But he wants to. No way he didn't look at those shirts now and then and wish he could tell Ennis right out that he *loves* him.   


-- Use that word when talking to himself?
    Diane – I am surmising you are saying when he is talking to himself about Ennis? The answer is YES!!!
     Jane  -  yes, always.
     Amanda- Yes, I think he does use the word love.  This question again, was lifted from the Ennis questionnaire.
     Mark-yes
     Katherine -- Probably. 
         Ruthlessly – Yes.  He had “Jack Loves Ennis” tattooed on his ass on one of his trips to Mexico.  Jack told Lureen it was the name of his favorite horsey.
     Mikaela -- Yes.   


-- Notice that he exhibits the feelings and longings and behavior that the rest of us would associate with the word "love"?
    Diane – Yes
     Jane  -  yes, Jack is a smart man, he knows Ennis is the love of his life.
     Amanda- You bet.
     Mark-yes
     Katherine -- Of course.
     Ruthlessly – Yes.
     Mikaela -- Yes.   


-- Know truly that Ennis loved him even though the word is unspoken in the movie/ book?
     Diane – Yes. I think in his heart of hearts, he knew … despite all of the hardships they went through with each other.
     Jane  -  I’m not sure if Jack really knew in his heart that Ennis loved him.
     Amanda-  It's very important to me to believe that he did.  But, it's a little worry that I have and it bothers me.  For the most part... I'd say yes.  They both knew.
     Mark-yes
     Katherine -- Yes, he knew.
     Ruthlessly – Yes… but I think he had his doubts from time to time.  I think Ennis’ breakdown at the final lake scene gave Jack a definite answer to his questioning.
     Mikaela -- However much it pains me to say this, I think from time to time in their relationship he may have felt a little doubt sneaking in, because Ennis was too bloody good at "standing it", keeping his hurt and longing inside; - and Jack must have felt it nearly impossible to fully relate to that kind of willpower in anyone who felt as strongly in love as he himself did. I do want to believe that Jack *always* knew. Certainly he had no doubt whatsoever at the reunion and for years after that..... and Ennis's breakdown at the lakeside took away his doubts for good and all. So at least he didn't die with any doubt about Ennis's love in his heart.   


-- Wish that he and Ennis could be comfortable enough to use the word "love" freely? 
     Diane – Unsure. Knowing how each one was raised, I don’t know that either would have felt comfortable. So, I guess I am going to say “no.”
     Jane  -  yes.
     Amanda- Again, in the "sometimes I miss you so much..." speech... I think Jack initially is weighing whether it's safe to say "tell you what...long pause... you're the only one I love" (or something like that... since they're both in the middle of talking about their bogus affairs).
    Mark-no, but there actions spoke it
    Katherine -- I think he is confident they can get the point across without the word.
     Ruthlessly – Yes.  Duh!  Of course he wished they could openly use the word “love.”  He wanted them to live as openly as they could have dared.  And between the two of them?  Of course.  No question at all.  The question was not whether they “would have felt comfortable,” the question was “wish that he and Ennis could be comfortable.”  Amanda, exactly – he KNOWS they’re not comfortable with that word, but he certainly wishes they could be.  Mark – why do you think Jack did not want to be comfortable using the word “love?”
     Mikaela -- Yes.   


NB! (cont'd in next post)
« Last Edit: July 11, 2006, 02:49:37 pm by Mikaela »

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Jack's questionnaire
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2006, 02:51:30 pm »
NB: This is he latter half of the Jack questionnaire!
 (The text got too long for one post - the site kept giving me error messages.




Misc.

-- Is Jack as worried and fearful about homophobia and violence as Ennis?
    Diane – No
     Jane  -  no.
    Amanda- No.  And even if he is... he's willing to look past it.
     Mark-no
    Katherine -- If anything, he's not worried and fearful enough.
     Ruthlessly – No.  Jack is a happy-go-lucky, perky kinda fella.
     Mikaela -- No. Not at all.   


-- Is Jack as worried and fearful about people "knowing" as Ennis?
     Diane – As much as Ennis, no. But concerned? Yes
     Jane  -  no.
     Amanda- No not as much.  But he must be a little worried since he does go ahead and get married... which, on some level is about "keeping up appearances."
     Mark-he still marries, so not as mush as Ennis but yes
     Katherine -- He knows he has to keep it on the QT.
       Ruthlessly – No.  In fact, I believe that had Ennis agreed to live together, Jack would have told the truth to Lureen and would have felt a huge weight off of his shoulders.  If they had shacked up, then, under that circumstance, I don’t think he would have cared what people knew.
     Mikaela -- Not at all, no   

   
-- If Ennis had given the word, would Jack have divorced Lureen (almost immediately) following Ennis's divorce?
    Diane – Yes, absolutely
     Jane  -  yes, the very next day, IMO.
    Amanda-  I've always thought that Ennis is lucky here that Jack didn't go ahead and file for divorce before he drove up to surprise Ennis.  Can you imagine?  What if Jack had pulled into the driveway by surprise and said "guess what, I just filed for divorce too."  I can absolutely imagine that as a plausible situation.
    Mark-yes
    Katherine -- Yes, and good point, Amanda.
     Ruthlessly – Yes.  Amanda – again, spot on!  I was surprised he didn’t have his calfskin luggage in the back of the pickup.  Maybe he did?
     Mikaela -- YES, with 101% certainty. (Perhaps he didn't file for divorce before he left Childress for the post-divorce scene simply because he couldn't take the time to do it - he was in *such* an overwhelming hurry to see Ennis again...... Tragic irony, if so - and not the only instance. :(   )


-- Is Jack as interested in being a father as Ennis is?
    Diane – No. It doesn’t mean he has no love for his son … he does. However, he would have been happy if he never would have had a child at all.
     Jane  -  no.  He would leave Bobby with Lureen in a blink if Ennis beckoned.
    Amanda- Well no.  We know this from the story.  But, I think the film implies this by focusing much less attention on Bobby than on Ennis's girls.
    Mark-yes but i dont think he even realizes it.
    Katherine -- Not as much, but not uninterested.
     Ruthlessly – He wasn’t interested at the time, when it happened to him.  But, after their new definition of their relationship at the river reunion scene, he threw himself into it to not let Bobby grow up feeling the same way about Jack as Jack felt about his dad.  Jack taught Bobby to ride and was there with him – metaphorically, in the tractor driving scene.
     Mikaela -- Yes and no. I think wanting children was one reason Ennis married - while to the contrary, Jack "had" to marry because he was on his way to becoming a father. So they approached their fatherhood status from different sides, as it were. Also, I think Jack held back from Bobby emotionally and let the Newsomes have first dibs because for many years he was planning to be ready to leave to be with Ennis, and realist enough to know that his shacking up with another man would likely prevent him from seeing his son. (ie. he was limiting the damage his leaving would do to Bobby, not to himself). Nevertheless, he bonded with the boy and he loved him. And *I* love the film for the Jack&Bobby tractor ride, because it's such a contrast to Jack's description of how his father threated *him*. Shows Jack as a loving, caring father, - working at supporting the boy and deliberately building his self-confidence. So.... yes. I think that when it came down to it, Jack took just as much interest in being a father as Ennis ever did, and it was as rewarding to him.   


-- How far did Jack get in planning the cow and calf operation?  Either in his head or with his parents up on Lightning Flat?  Did he really have a concrete plan, or was he just dreaming?
    Diane – I think he was hopeful … dreaming. I don’t think he had any specific plans. In his heart, I think he knew it would not happen (especially post divorce).
     Jane  -  I think he had big plans in his head, and he discussed it with his father.  But he did not go beyond the planning stages since he did not have Ennis' agreement.
     Amanda- I think Jack had come concrete plans in mind as to how it might work.  I think this was part of Ennis's surprise during the Lightning Flat scene.  Ennis realizes that it really wasn't all "pie in the sky."
    Mark-yes, Lighting Flat.
    Katherine -- Yes, he'd worked it out in his mind, probably because he constantly daydreamed about it.
     Ruthlessly – I agree with everyone above.
     Mikaela -- What Ruthlessly said.   


--What did Jack mean when he said "if you don't never know the rest."?  Is he only talking about Randall and/or Mexico or is there more?  Is he also referring to how much he's loved Ennis over the years?  Essentially, does he also mean "if you don't ever find/ know about those shirts" (or any other measure of the extent of his love)?
   Diane – I have always thought that it meant his sexual experiences with other men … Randall or others(??) I don’t see, at that moment, he was talking about his love for Ennis. It’s an interesting thought … I’ll need to think on that a little more).
     Jane  -  I think he was referring to boys in Mexico / Randall.  I don't think he is alluding to his love for Ennis right then, they are fighting about boys in Mexico thing.
     Amanda- I sort of gave away my answer in the question.  On the surface, Jack's talking about the affairs.  But, I think he really does mean (too) "if you don't never really come to understand how much I love you..."
    Mark-I like Amandas answer
    Katherine -- Me too.
     Ruthlessly – I think it’s more about his love than about Mexico.  What are his exact lines that he immediately follows this statement with?  I think that gives us a lot of insight into what he meant by “the rest.”
     Mikaela -- I agree with Amanda, big time.l "If you never get to understand how much I love you". IMO in that sentence Jack is addressing their total relationship, not the Mexico thing and his physical needs in isolation - though that comes in a later sentence.   


--Did Jack hate his father?
   Diane – No. As I said in another thread …  no matter how much a child is abused or degraded by a parent, the child still loves the parent and hopes to please him/her. That to me is Jack.
     Jane  -  no, I don't think Jack hated him.  But I also don't think Jack liked his father.  He just tolerated him.
     Amanda- I think Jack really, really disliked his father.  Hate is probably too strong a word.  But, he does feel a sense of duty to him... Going to help once in a while.  I get the sense that Jack made visiting his parents part of his excuses for rendez-vous with Ennis... So the folks played a role in facilitating the relationship.  In an ironic way, his Dad (and his Dad's need for help on the ranch) might have given Jack the excuse for living with Ennis if Ennis had ever agreed.
    Mark-no, he still tried to p[lease him
    Katherine -- I think he resented his dad, but they got along better than it seems, especially in later years.
     Ruthlessly – I agree with all the comments above.
     Mikaela -- No.   


-- How much did Jack tell his parents about Ennis?  Did Mrs. Twist know about the relationship between Jack and Ennis because of finding the shirts?  Or did Jack confide in her?
    Diane – I don’t think he said anything. I think Mrs. Twist knew after finding the shirts. She may have had her suspicions, as did Mr. Twist. However, Jack didn’t say anything to either one.
     Jane  -  I think Jack might have told his mother about his friend Ennis, and he may have spilled more information to her through the years, especially if / when he told her not to wash or do anything with the two shirts in his closet.  I don't think he said a word about his closeness to Ennis to his old man.
    Amanda- I almost believe that Jack might have told his mother.  I dunno.
    Mark-He would have told his mother
    Katherine -- I don't think he told her outright, but she knew and he knew she knew.
     Ruthlessly – I can’t go so far as to agree with Mark here.  But I pretty much agree with the rest.  As to the shirts, I believe his mom knew of their existence.  And, because there are two men’s shirts on one hangar, I think she believed that there was a special something having to do with a special someone.  However, the one thing that bothers me is this – If Ennis called or wrote to the Twists before coming (i.e., they expected him) then I think she would have put the shirts in the main closet, prominently available to Ennis to see if Ennis would know their significance.  But she didn’t do this.  She left them hidden… VERY hidden.  It’s the biggest dumb luck happenstance that Ennis found the shirts at all.  If Ennis just showed up without forewarning, then I think Mrs. Twist would have led Ennis up there and would have taken the shirts from the hiding spot and hung them prominently in the main closet without saying a word and then would have left the room to see what Ennis would then do.  But she didn’t do this either.  Either she didn’t know about the shirts at all – unlikely – or she didn’t connect them at all with Ennis – unlikely too – or she … what?   I can’t fill in this blank.  When Ennis walked down the stairs with the shirts, I believe his mother realized that Ennis understood their meaning, but I don’t think she expected him to find them.  She could have made it a hell of a lot easier.  But then we would have missed out on that unbelievably moving scene in the closet, huh?
     Mikaela -- I don't think Jack told either parent in plain words what Ennis meant to him, but I think he talked about Ennis many times and (unintentionally) told them the truth through his tone of voice, the look in his eyes, etc.

Ruthlessly, I agree Mrs. Twist knew Ennis was coming, I think she was testing Ennis and his love for Jack, -  and that's why she let the shirts remain hidden. It's like "If this man truly loved my son, if his love was strong enough, he will find the shirts where Jack hid them. Some higher being, or providence, or Jack's presence.... will lead him to the shirts - it will be a confirmation that he was worthy of Jack's love." With the "spooky" and/or spiritual setting of the Twist ranch, - the white-washed kitchen, the prominent cross, the crow sounding as the window is being opened etc, I don't think this is far-fetched at all. She even gives him a benediction before he goes up, willing him to pass her test and prove his love - with her hand on his shoulder.  The confirmation that she *is* testing Ennis to me is the way Mrs. Twist is standing when Ennis comes back down: Clutching her cup, on pins and needles. She's very anxious to learn whether or not he's found the shirts - that is; whether he truly did love Jack and deserved Jack's love in return. And then there's relief and immediate understanding flooding her face once she sees that he *has* found them.   



--Would November have been the true test of their relationship?  How much longer would Jack hold on to hope that things would move forward with Ennis?
    Diane – Honestly, I think it would have continued. Even had Jack shacked up with Randall, IMO, he would have continued his fishing trips. I don’t think he could have “quit” Ennis, despite how much he may have wanted to.
     Jane  -  I don’t have my answer to this yet.  It is still percolating.
     Amanda- I think November would have been critical.  I think Jack would have arrived anxious to find out if things had progressed at all with Ennis and would have arrived with even sadder eyes.  :'(  But, I think Jack would have been pleasantly surprised in November by some little changes that we see in Ennis.  First of all... isn't the returned postcard the first one that we see written/ initiated by Ennis?  Other than the "you bet" reply?  I'm sure Ennis has written other postcards over the years... but this is the first that we see... this, and the break up with Cassie, his obvious fear at losing Jack, etc. all might have led to a pleasant surprise for Jack. 
    Mark-no matter what Jack would not have given up on Ennis. Actually I think Ennis mostly sent the first postcard for each trip, letting Jack know the days he could be off work.
    Katherine -- I don't think Ennis' postcards were unusual, but I do think he was planning to make some changes.
     Ruthlessly – After the final lake scene there is no doubt that Jack resolved to end his relationship with Ennis.  He had to.  He loved Ennis that much.  He just saw his lover crumple into nothingness all due to his inability to deal with all of his complex inner struggles.  Jack loved Ennis so much that he had to let him go.  Otherwise, we have Jack saying “I just saw my man crumple up in a heap of utter despair – oh, well, at least he’s still good for a couple of high-altitude fucks every year.”  If Jack did not “quit” Ennis – I do NOT mean quit loving Ennis, I mean let Ennis go for Ennis’ well-being – then he never had any love at all for Ennis.  Jack said he wished that he knew how to quit Ennis – and he said this selfishly, for Jack.  In the film’s greatest irony, Ennis showed Jack just how to do that – and it was done unselfishly, for Ennis.
 Mikaela -- I think November would have been the final make or break. If Ennis had actually come around and was willing to give life with Jack a go, Jack would still have been there. If Ennis had anything less to offer, Jack would have told him a final goodbye (being the hardest thing Jack had ever done in his life .......but I think he *would* have done it, for Ennis, because he knew now that the way they'd been going about their relationship was killing Ennis, not only himself.) The fact that he talked to his parents about bringing (presumably) Randall up to Lightning Flat when he went there directly after the last meeting with Ennis, shows that Jack had next to no hope that Ennis would manage to change. **Sniff**


--Could Jack really have quit Ennis?
    Diane – I think I just answered that above. No, I don’t think so. He loved Ennis too deeply … despite everything.
     Jane  -  same answer as the previous.  I am not going to answer this just yet.
     Amanda- No.  I believe leaving Ennis would have killed Jack...  But then again, Jack does die.  I don't know.  How much has Jack given up by the end?
     Mark-NO
     Katherine -- no.
        Ruthlessly – Again, he had to.  He loved Ennis.  Love is NOT standing by while your lover diminishes into nothingness.  Jack loved Ennis and knew how to love Ennis – by setting him free.  Anything else is putridly obscene.
 Mikaela -- Yes, he could have stopped seeing him. No, he could never have stopped longing for him.   


--Would Jack have shown up in November?
    Diane – Absolutely.
     Jane  -  yes.
     Amanda- yes.
     Mark-yes
     Katherine -- yes.
     Ruthlessly – If so, for one reason only.  To make Ennis make the final decision.
 Mikaela -- Yes.   


--Would Jack have been happy if he ranched up with Randall?  Or would he be settling... and know it?
    Diane – No, he would not have been happy. He would have been settling and he would have known it. Randall would have been a hard dick to meet his sexual needs. It was Ennis, and only Ennis, who Jack loved. That’s why Jack’s memory of the dozy embrace is so poignant. It has nothing to do with physical love. It has everything to do with emotional love. The fulfillment of a longing that could not be met by sex alone.
     Jane  -  he would be settling, and he would know it.  And if Ennis ever came to have some sense and came to Jack, unfortunately poor ol' Randall would have been the casualty.
     Amanda- Jack would have been miserable.  He's tried other men... even a relatively long affair with Randall... And still he misses Ennis so much he can hardly stand it.  A sad comment where Randall is concerned.
     Mark-no and I don't think he was ever that involved with Randall
     Katherine -- Settling and know it, but I don't think his involvement with Randall was necessarily nothing but pure sex; he probably liked him
      Ruthlessly – He would have known he was settling, but he would have grown in his happiness and love.  Jack was capable of growth.  To keep Ennis on -- after deciding on a life with Randall and both of them getting divorced -- would have been completely out of character for Jack.
 Mikaela -- He would be settling, he would know that - and he could have found some sort of happiness over time. Not perfect happiness, but happiness nontheless. I think there would be a calm after the storm, a painful peace of mind for Jack just in letting Ennis go - because he'd know in his heart that was the hardest thing, but also the only right thing, he could do acting out of love for Ennis.   


--Did Jack really expect to see Ennis again immediately after coming down from Brokeback?  Should Jack have insisted more strongly that the relationship continue immediately after coming down from the mountain?
   Diane – That’s a really hard question. I think Jack did expect that the relationship would continue (pre-punch). The whole “punch” issue, which we have discussed in another thread, threw a wrench in everything. I think Jack was confused and didn’t know what to think. Maybe they were both hoping the other would say something about the relationship continuing. Certainly Jack has a longing in his eyes, but is insure of Ennis’ POV.
     Jane  -  yes.  YES.
     Amanda- I don't know when he truly expected to see Ennis next.  Yes, Jack should have pushed harder.
     Katherine -- I don't know why Jack didn't push harder. He must have known continuing their relationship post-Brokeback would be difficult unless he acted.
     Ruthlessly – Yes, from the dozy embrace until the punch.  Then he was confused.  Jack should have taken the lead to redefine their relationship from what they spoke in the “not queer” scene.
 Mikaela -- Expected to continue the relationship till the punch. After that he was confused and frightened that it really was over. I don't think him insisting would have made any difference, so - no to that.   


-- Did Jack have any idea of how heartbroken Ennis was during the descent from Brokeback.  Without Ennis telling him, would Jack have known Ennis was upset enough about leaving him to have the dry heaves/ cry?
     Diane – I doubt it. If he had, I think he would have stayed and tried to work out something with Ennis.
     Jane  -  no.  No.
     Amanda- No, I think everything would have been different if he did.  While Jack should have been more determined at pressing Ennis to continue the relationship... Ennis should have shown a bit more of his true emotions here, instead of reminding Jack about Alma and the terse "see ya around"...  It only would have encouraged Jack if Jack had some sense of how sad Ennis was specifically about leaving Jack.
     Mark-no, if he did he would have never laft Ennis
     Katherine -- No, he didn't know. Yes, it would have been nice if Ennis had shown more emotion to Jack, but then Ennis would have to be a completely different person -- especially because Jack wasn't showing much emotion to Ennis, making it all the more intimidating.
     Ruthlessly – No.  Jack was confused as to Ennis’ state-of-mind.  Again, no.  Confusion was served up with a side of beans and a slice of apple pie.
 Mikaela -- No. Jack didn't know - couldn't see it through his own confusion and heartbreak.   


--Why did Jack wait 4 years before contacting Ennis?
    Diane – I think it is the combination of  two things … fear and an attempt to get Ennis out of his mind.
     Jane  -  I wish I knew why it took him four f'n years!  I can't figure out why he did not go looking for him after two years, or three years, or even one year.
     Amanda- I truly don't know the answer to this either.  It's one of the true enigmas to me.
Mark-I'm with Diane
     Katherine -- He thought he could move on and find someone else. And then he did -- unfortunately, it was a woman. Then Bobby came along, etc. etc. Life got in the way.
     Ruthlessly – Well, after one year he did try to ascertain whether Ennis had been around Signal – hoping that Ennis had shown some desire to see Jack again.  He was very confused about Ennis’ feelings.  The way he was “warmly accepted” into the Newsome clan gave him the impetus to find out for sure.
 Mikaela -- He tried to take Ennis at his word and to move on in life. He had a lot of fear that Ennis wouldn't want to see him. When the moving on didn't work, and his marriage with Lureen didn't help his loneliness but only made him feel more alienated than ever in his own life, he reached a low point where he might as well find out the worst (or the best). That was when he contacted Ennis.   


--Shortly before his death, was Jack becoming increasingly reckless?  Desperate?  Was he giving up hope?
    Diane – Not exactly sure what you are asking … you mean reckless in showing his homosexuality? In that way, no. However … desperate? Yes. Giving up hope? I don’t know that Jack ever gave up completely on Ennis. I think he still had hope that maybe things would be different (even though in his heart of hearts he knew that it wouldn’t happen). Frustrated? Absolutely.
     Jane  -  yes.  Maybe.
     Amanda- I think he was maybe becoming more reckless.  And I truly want to believe that he wasn't giving up hope.  No, I don't think he could give up on Ennis.  But his sad eyes really worry me. :'(

     Mark-he wasn't giving up butr felt time was passing and felt unable to do anything about it'
     Katherine -- Maybe.
     Ruthlessly – I agree more or less with all the comments above.
 Mikaela -- I think Jack did become reckless, that  he was depressed enough that he just couldn't give enough of a damn about being careful in hiding his trysts with Randall (or other men???). He  also took the pain off by drinking too much, which may in turn have lead him to further recklessness. So though I do by no means think he did it deliberately, I still think he did behave in a manner that would catch the wrong people's attention. Which also goes to say, in my heart of hearts, I think he was murdered.   


ruthlesslyunsentimental

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Re: Jack's questionnaire
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2006, 03:32:13 pm »

Couple of comments I'd like to throw into the middle here...

Wow! This is a whopper of a post!

Sure enough.


Mikaela -- you said --

Quote
Ruthlessly, I agree Mrs. Twist knew Ennis was coming, I think she was testing Ennis and his love for Jack, -  and that's why she let the shirts remain hidden. It's like "If this man truly loved my son, if his love was strong enough, he will find the shirts where Jack hid them. Some higher being, or providence, or Jack's presence.... will lead him to the shirts - it will be a confirmation that he was worthy of Jack's love." With the "spooky" and/or spiritual setting of the Twist ranch, - the white-washed kitchen, the prominent cross, the crow sounding as the window is being opened etc, I don't think this is far-fetched at all. She even gives him a benediction before he goes up, willing him to pass her test and prove his love - with her hand on his shoulder.  The confirmation that she *is* testing Ennis to me is the way Mrs. Twist is standing when Ennis comes back down: Clutching her cup, on pins and needles. She's very anxious to learn whether or not he's found the shirts - that is; whether he truly did love Jack and deserved Jack's love in return. And then there's relief and immediate understanding flooding her face once she sees that he *has* found them.

Generally, I like this.  While reading it the first time, I thought that, yes, in a spiritual, symbolic, subtextual sense we, the viewers, can see this as what's happened... but not that Mrs. Twist actually had it in her mind to put Ennis to the test.  But then, I agree that her standing, clutching her cup gives good support for the idea of testing Ennis.  You have made a very strong point of a classical allusion here, but I still can't quite get over the "what she knew," "what she did," "what she expected" mess.  As far as something that we can see as symbolism -- Ennis put to the test -- I think it's great.  But the actual participation of the Mrs. Twist character on the textual level... how many mothers would rely on the intervention of the fates as opposed to just laying the shirts on the bed for him to find?  If they're significant, he'll pick them up.


Also, you said --

Quote
Mikaela -- I think November would have been the final make or break. If Ennis had actually come around and was willing to give life with Jack a go, Jack would still have been there. If Ennis had anything less to offer, Jack would have told him a final goodbye (being the hardest thing Jack had ever done in his life .......but I think he *would* have done it, for Ennis, because he knew now that the way they'd been going about their relationship was killing Ennis, not only himself.) The fact that he talked to his parents about bringing (presumably) Randall up to Lightning Flat when he went there directly after the last meeting with Ennis, shows that Jack had next to no hope that Ennis would manage to change. **Sniff**

and

Quote
Mikaela -- Yes, he could have stopped seeing him. No, he could never have stopped longing for him. 

Wow was I surprised.  Not that this came from you, in particular; rather, that it came from anyone.  You can't know the flack I've taken over my admittedly very strong, no middle-ground, stance on this question.  It all goes to how the word "quit" is defined.  I've always felt that to define "quit" as "stop loving" is way too simplistic.  Given all they've been through in that scene, given the juxtaposition of Jack’s use of the word "quit" against Ennis' use (it's a hell of a lot easier to quit a job than to "quit" a person), given the fact that everyone seems to agree that their love was a once-in-a-lifetime, metaphysically forever, kind of love, then "quit" must carry more baggage with it than a simple "stop loving."

Dly64 asked me my thoughts on this a while ago in another post and I was 1) too afraid to answer and 2) not prepared even if I could have gotten past my bear.  Here is my basic response, though I've given serious consideration to opening the floodgates and starting a thread on this as my opinion seems to be differently premised than most seem to assume.  Does anyone want me to start it?

Anyway, it was very gratifying to see someone say something that gave some credence to what I said.  Thanks.  You've melted away years of tears and fears.  (OK, that's over the top...)





« Last Edit: July 11, 2006, 03:34:38 pm by ruthlesslyunsentimental »

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Jack's questionnaire
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2006, 03:49:49 pm »
Um, Mikaela ... whatever happened to one or two sentences?  :laugh: That's OK. Your answers are interesting, so feel free to blithely flout the ground rules that we (ahem) discussed yesterday ...   ;) (This applies to Ruthlessly too, though I don't know that Ruthlessly participated in or saw that discussion.)

Anyway ... now that seven people have answered, want to discuss specific answers (or at least give the terse answerers an opportunity to respond copiously)? There are some really good questions regarding Jack's attitudes and intentions at the end of the movie. Here's one I find particularly interesting and apparently controversial:

Quote
--Would November have been the true test of their relationship?  How much longer would Jack hold on to hope that things would move forward with Ennis?
    Diane – Honestly, I think it would have continued. Even had Jack shacked up with Randall, IMO, he would have continued his fishing trips. I don’t think he could have “quit” Ennis, despite how much he may have wanted to.
     Jane  -  I don’t have my answer to this yet.  It is still percolating.
     Amanda- I think November would have been critical.  I think Jack would have arrived anxious to find out if things had progressed at all with Ennis and would have arrived with even sadder eyes.  Cry  But, I think Jack would have been pleasantly surprised in November by some little changes that we see in Ennis.  First of all... isn't the returned postcard the first one that we see written/ initiated by Ennis?  Other than the "you bet" reply?  I'm sure Ennis has written other postcards over the years... but this is the first that we see... this, and the break up with Cassie, his obvious fear at losing Jack, etc. all might have led to a pleasant surprise for Jack.
    Mark-no matter what Jack would not have given up on Ennis. Actually I think Ennis mostly sent the first postcard for each trip, letting Jack know the days he could be off work.
    Katherine -- I don't think Ennis' postcards were unusual, but I do think he was planning to make some changes.
     Ruthlessly – After the final lake scene there is no doubt that Jack resolved to end his relationship with Ennis.  He had to.  He loved Ennis that much.  He just saw his lover crumple into nothingness all due to his inability to deal with all of his complex inner struggles.  Jack loved Ennis so much that he had to let him go.  Otherwise, we have Jack saying “I just saw my man crumple up in a heap of utter despair – oh, well, at least he’s still good for a couple of high-altitude fucks every year.”  If Jack did not “quit” Ennis – I do NOT mean quit loving Ennis, I mean let Ennis go for Ennis’ well-being – then he never had any love at all for Ennis.  Jack said he wished that he knew how to quit Ennis – and he said this selfishly, for Jack.  In the film’s greatest irony, Ennis showed Jack just how to do that – and it was done unselfishly, for Ennis.
Mikaela -- I think November would have been the final make or break. If Ennis had actually come around and was willing to give life with Jack a go, Jack would still have been there. If Ennis had anything less to offer, Jack would have told him a final goodbye (being the hardest thing Jack had ever done in his life .......but I think he *would* have done it, for Ennis, because he knew now that the way they'd been going about their relationship was killing Ennis, not only himself.) The fact that he talked to his parents about bringing (presumably) Randall up to Lightning Flat when he went there directly after the last meeting with Ennis, shows that Jack had next to no hope that Ennis would manage to change. **Sniff**

As a romantic optimist, I've always wanted to agree with Mark and Diane -- that they would have stayed together forever. It's very hard for me to face the idea of them breaking up.

But I'll have to grudgingly admit that lately I'm edging more toward the Mikaela and Ruthlessly side. Amanda, I notice you very slightly skirted the issue of what Jack would have done if there were no changes in November. Like you, I pin my hopes on the thought that Ennis' reaction to the argument and breakup with Cassie -- coupled with his reaction to Cassie's "girls don't fall in love with fun" -- signal his intention to change the course in some way. And I at least think Jack would have shown up in November -- even if intending to break up, would have done so in person (surely he wouldn't just string Ennis along as Ennis goes through summer anticipating that rendezvous). So I cling to the straw that they would meet in November, Jack ready to break up but finds Ennis a changed man, and yay, they live happily ever after! Course, the problem is they didn't.

Romantic optimist or not, I laughed out loud (more than once!) at Ruthlessly's
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Otherwise, we have Jack saying “I just saw my man crumple up in a heap of utter despair – oh, well, at least he’s still good for a couple of high-altitude fucks every year.”

But not only is it funny, I'm afraid it does make sense.

ruthlesslyunsentimental

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Re: Jack's questionnaire
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2006, 04:32:55 pm »
... whatever happened to one or two sentences?  ... This applies to Ruthlessly too, though I don't know that Ruthlessly participated in or saw that discussion.

OK.  Sorry.  I guess I'll have to go to my room tonight without any supper...  But that's OK.  I keep a case of beans under my bed just in case.  And, I am pretty good with a can opener.  Unfortunately, it's usually a can of worms I open up.


Thanks for what you wrote about the "quit" question.  I know it can get very heated.  Been there, done that.


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But I'll have to grudgingly admit that lately I'm edging more toward the Mikaela and Ruthlessly side. Amanda, I notice you very slightly skirted the issue of what Jack would have done if there were no changes in November. Like you, I pin my hopes on the thought that Ennis' reaction to the argument and breakup with Cassie -- coupled with his reaction to Cassie's "girls don't fall in love with fun" -- signal his intention to change the course in some way. And I at least think Jack would have shown up in November -- even if intending to break up, would have done so in person (surely he wouldn't just string Ennis along as Ennis goes through summer anticipating that rendezvous). So I cling to the straw that they would meet in November, Jack ready to break up but finds Ennis a changed man, and yay, they live happily ever after! Course, the problem is they didn't.

Yes.  I've always left room for the possibility of November (see my answer above to the question immediately after the one we're discussing here).  But November would have been crucial.  It seems Jack already made his decision (telling his parents about the other guy) to free Ennis from his miseries.  Certainly Jack would not have just stopped all communication with Ennis and left him wondering.  He would have kept the November date at Pine Creek but all the truths and lies would have had to have come out and Jack would have had to have spelled it all out and forced Ennis to make a choice.  Again, to continue with Ennis in such a state would have been cruel.  I know the short story says nothing resolved, blah blah, but in the film, I'm not so sure what took place between Ennis' breakdown and his driving off.  The look on Jack's face tells me that Ennis did not come around at that time.  And Jack's telling his folks about the other guy makes me think Jack knew Ennis would never come around.  Because even if Jack told Ennis that he had until November to figure this all out, Jack still told his parents about the other guy.  Gosh darn it!  Of all the scenes I wish were filled in, it's right after Ennis' breakdown that's most important to me.  Jack fuckin' Twist!  He sure picked a lousy time to go into a flashback....


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Romantic optimist or not, I laughed out loud (more than once!) at Ruthlessly's

Otherwise, we have Jack saying “I just saw my man crumple up in a heap of utter despair – oh, well, at least he’s still good for a couple of high-altitude fucks every year.”

But not only is it funny, I'm afraid it does make sense.

It is sad.  But I really believe these were Jack's only realistic options... set Ennis free or keep him captive.


Anyway, since you liked that bit of humor, and to end this post with a bit more humor...

I was debating something with someone once and we were debating just how important specific words were in specific points in the film.  The other person felt we could interchange a lot of things.  In arguing my point, I said, "Well, what if instead of (x) so and so would have said (y)..."  And then I gave some examples.  One of the examples I gave caused the other person to spit Coke all over his or her computer screen in laughter.

I said, "What if Ennis would have changed "Jack, I swear..." to "Jack, what the hell was I thinking?""

Worth a chuckle, huh?




« Last Edit: July 11, 2006, 04:36:51 pm by ruthlesslyunsentimental »

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Jack's questionnaire
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2006, 05:10:55 pm »
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He sure picked a lousy time to go into a flashback...

Then again, WHAT a flashback!  :-*


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Um, Mikaela ... whatever happened to one or two sentences?   That's OK. Your answers are interesting, so feel free to blithely flout the ground rules that we (ahem) discussed yesterday ...   

I'm sorry. I misunderstood the discussion yesterday - I didn't feel we reached a concensus and therefore looked to see whether any "gound rules" had been included in the new questionnaire without finding them - so I figured they'd been put on hold. Tell you what, I actually intended to abide by them anyway, but halfway through I couldn't keep to my own rule, even.  ::blush::  I'll be a good girl from now on. Promise.  :)


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I pin my hopes on the thought that Ennis' reaction to the argument and breakup with Cassie -- coupled with his reaction to Cassie's "girls don't fall in love with fun" -- signal his intention to change the course in some way. And I at least think Jack would have shown up in November -- even if intending to break up, would have done so in person (surely he wouldn't just string Ennis along as Ennis goes through summer anticipating that rendezvous).

Yes, Jack surely would have been there in November. No question in my mind about that. And what would have happend then is ......well, it's enough to drive me crazy that we'll never know. I've said what I think Jack would have done (as quoted above) - or at least what I beleive he would have *tried* to do: Quit Ennis, if Ennis hadn't changed. So, some sort of ultimatum. (Though I don't think Jack could *ever* quit the longing and wanting). But I'm more uncertain what Ennis would have done. He *has* changed after the lakeside scene, to me the Cassie scene shows that very clearly. He seems to have reached a point where pretending to be straight just isn't worth any sort of effort any more, but he doesn't look like a guy with a purpose....... in both the Cassie scene and at the beginning of the scene where he collects the mail he looks like someone defeated and cowed by life, almost.  :'(  So I'm very uncertain.

Also, it would have been such a horribly cruel irony if he'd actually decided to meet Jack in November to tell  him "let's stay together" before he got the postcard  - so I find it painful to wish for that, too - within the context of the film.

Aaargh.  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

But if Jack had lived, oh well - I want to think that Ennis would have gone for it at last, homophobia be damned. He did have the strength to do it, to overcome all that self-loathing and fear and doubt at long last. I'm sure of that. **sniff**
« Last Edit: July 11, 2006, 05:25:07 pm by Mikaela »

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Jack's questionnaire
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2006, 07:52:29 pm »
Wow! This is a whopper of a post!

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I thought this questionnaire had better start out with some weight after the models set by the other 3 questionnaire threads.  ALL of these have turned into marathon typing / reading endeavors.
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie