Why Jack Quit Ennis

[Mikaela]

People leaving all over the place.    I feel as if I've been walking in a mine field, blissfully unaware. 

Goodbye, and thanks for the discussions and your extremely lucid and logical posts, Ruthlessly. Best of luck to you; - I do hope you fare well where you next decide to join discussions. 

From Jeff
I guess what is provoking in me the idea that he might have forgotten about the shirts is the thought that if Jack had truly--truly--decided to "quit" Ennis, and if those shirts were still prominent in his consciousness, it would have been logical for him to get rid of them on his final trip to Lightning Flat. This is suggesting to me the possiblity that at some time in that nearly 20 years, he stopped taking out those shirts out of the closet and "holding on to them reverently" on this trips home and eventually just plain forgot about them. 

All we really know is that in the end, the shirts were still there.

I'm among those who think "Jack was setting Ennis free" - or at least, he'd be doing that on their upcoming November meeting if Ennis wasn't then willing or able to make another sort of commitment. But I've been thinking Jack would preserve the shirts to remember his love by, because he wouldn't stop loving. If he should ever stop *loving* Ennis, then the shirts would go - he'd get rid of them as a kind of symbolic and final dsign that it was truly over.

But that would never, ever happen. I just can't manage to imagine that....

From Diane
Let’s just say that we meet Jack for the first time (at the benefit dance). Albeit, he’s not college educated. However, he is well-groomed and makes good money. His wife is educated. How would we see him? We have no idea about Randall’s background (with the exception that he is a college graduate and is “technically challenged”). For all we know, he could have grown up with humble roots.

Reading this I'm more than ever reminded that I can't believe Jack could ever manage to live at Lightnin' Flat with anyone else than Ennis. Jack had moved too far away from those humble roots to easily manage to go back there for good, to give up having money - for anything less than the love he shared with Ennis. Ennis would have liked it up there; working with lifestock, being far away from people, living with Jack, - and Jack would have put up with anything if only Ennis had said yes to ranching up with him. Ennis and Jack could have made it.

But I can't see Jack actually settling with Randall there and making it work over time. The hardships of that old decrepit ranch would wear them down soon enough, I think. Jack and Randall at Ligthnin' Flat? No. I just can't imagine that working.

(But then again, I don't *want* to imagine it working. 

From Diane[/i]
I know I get a lot of grief for referring to the short story and screenplay since the film stands on its own … which is true. However, the screenplay offers some background and motivation that can not be explicitly expressed on the screen. The above quote, IMO, is one of those instances. As is the following …

“…they hug one another, a fierce, desperate embrace – managing to torque things almost to where they had been, for what they’ve just said is no news: as always, nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved.”

I feel a little stupid now for having spent time writing that overly looong previous post that basically say: I agree with you: I think the short story and script are entirely relevant sources when trying to come to terms with the film.

Nor do I think the quote from the story/screenplay necessarily contradicts those of us who thinks Jack was quitting Ennis; he was in a process and he may have made a decision to "quit" as he saw Ennis drive away, - but the decision would not have been *final* and immutable till after the November meeting, not till after he'd told Ennis about it, I think. So maybe that sad, discouraged look of Jack's is not the beginning of the end, nor the end, but..... somewhere in between in the quitting process? In which case, nothining was ended, nothing begun, and nothing finally resolved.

From Diane
I think it is completely impossible to think that Jack ever forgot about those shirts. It symbolized the two into one … a metaphor of marriage vows … “the two shall become one.” Ennis then responded by making his vow to Jack … “Jack, I swear …”

Beautifully said. Brings tears to my eyes....... 

[dly64]

Reading this I'm more than ever reminded that I can't believe Jack could ever manage to live at Lightnin' Flat with anyone else than Ennis. Jack had moved too far away from those humble roots to easily manage to go back there for good, to give up having money - for anything less than the love he shared with Ennis. Ennis would have liked it up there; working with lifestock, being far away from people, living with Jack, - and Jack would have put up with anything if only Ennis had said yes to ranching up with him. Ennis and Jack could have made it.

But I can't see Jack actually settling with Randall there and making it work over time. The hardships of that old decrepit ranch would wear them down soon enough, I think. Jack and Randall at Ligthnin' Flat? No. I just can't imagine that working.

(But then again, I don't *want* to imagine it working. 

I agree. I know that Jack would have given up everything ... his money, his family .... if Ennis would have just said, "Yes". Of course, the whole Randall thread was thrown in the story for a reason. It is hard to imagine that Jack would have moved to Lightning Flat with him. Was Jack's life so intolerable that he would give up his comfort to be with a man with whom he was settling? I simply don't know the answer to that question. Could it be that Jack had mentioned something to OMT and he used it to needle Ennis? This film is very ambiguous ... and here is another example.

I feel a little stupid now for having spent time writing that overly looong previous post that basically say: I agree with you: I think the short story and script are entirely relevant sources when trying to come to terms with the film.

Don’t feel stupid! I am one of those who like to use sources outside of the film. That includes the short story, screenplay, interviews, etc. Not everyone does and I can respect his/her opinion. I think, for me, it gives me a broader POV. This provides information to help me formulate my own opinions. Additionally, I use this forum to stimulate thought …. I enjoy hearing what everyone says. I don’t always agree, but it is always enlightening.

Nor do I think the quote from the story/screenplay necessarily contradicts those of us who thinks Jack was quitting Ennis; he was in a process and he may have made a decision to "quit" as he saw Ennis drive away, - but the decision would not have been *final* and immutable till after the November meeting, not till after he'd told Ennis about it, I think. So maybe that sad, discouraged look of Jack's is not the beginning of the end, nor the end, but..... somewhere in between in the quitting process? In which case, nothing was ended, nothing begun, and nothing finally resolved.

I think this is a valid point. Honestly, I have always struggled with their last scene together. I vacillate between thinking that Jack is considering giving up Ennis to thinking there is absolutely no way he could do that. I tend to believe that Jack knew he would never see Ennis again. I don’t mean that he would knowingly give Ennis up. Maybe it was a premonition? I know that sounds a bit “new age” … but I think it is something to consider. Again … another ambiguity!

[Brown Eyes]

This thread is just incredibly rich and complicated.  It's amazing to see the range of opinions and the strong emotions that people have when it comes to these really central and important issues in the film.  It seems only right that people would feel so strongly about these highly fraught things.

I just can’t see Jack being able to release Ennis, as Ennis is unable to release Jack. They are too enmeshed. It is not that either one is selfish. It is because they love each other to the core that makes it impossible to let each go free. That is why Jack’s death is so profound. Even in death, Ennis cannot let Jack go. He swears his love for Jack …. even in death, they do not part.

Diane, I have to say that this brief little part of your post a while back has been stuck in my head all night as I surf around BetterMost.  It's so precisely how I see this that it amazes me.  I think the word "enmeshed" is a really good way to describe it too.  Lovely.  The shirts - for me - are all about just how enmeshed they have been all along throughout the 20 years. 


I don't think Jack quit Ennis.   I take his statement seriously from the argument scene that he wishes he knew how to quit Ennis.  He really doesn't know how... and furthermore he doesn't even truly wish that he knew how.  He's too self-aware to want this or to do this.  Likewise, I don't take Ennis at his word when he says "why don't you then".  I think he's testing Jack (probably completely sub-consciously) and crying out for Jack to come running back to him.  Which of course Jack does.  Jack has learned that sometimes Ennis both lashes out when he's sad and confused (as he does in the argument... yet Jack hugs him tighter) and that sometimes he says the opposite of what he means.  Sometimes Ennis doesn't even know what's good for him.  Still he relies on Jack to take the lead even here at the end... in initiating the final hug that we see.

I always wonder how devastating this movie really would be if that final, tight hug wasn't shown.  I think the film would be almost unbearable if we didn't see something positive at the end of the argument scene.  Granted, Jack's eyes are awfully sad and confused looking at the very end.  But, still that hug leaves us at least with the image of something hopeful.   I also think, ironically, that Ennis's "I can't stand this anymore" is a good sign.  As others have noted, since this is part of his motto- "if you can't fix it you've got to stand it"... it seems to indicate that since he can't stand it, he must try to fix it.  "Give up on it" isn't an option here.

[jpwagoneer1964]

I don't think Jack quit Ennis.   I take his statement seriously from the argument scene that he wishes he knew how to quit Ennis.  He really doesn't know how... and furthermore he doesn't even truly wish that he knew how.  He's too self-aware to want this or to do this.  Likewise, I don't take Ennis at his word when he says "why don't you then".  I think he's testing Jack (probably completely sub-consciously) and crying out for Jack to come running back to him.  Which of course Jack does.  Jack has learned that sometimes Ennis both lashes out when he's sad and confused (as he does in the argument... yet Jack hugs him tighter) and that sometimes he says the opposite of what he means.  Sometimes Ennis doesn't even know what's good for him.  Still he relies on Jack to take the lead even here at the end... in initiating the final hug that we see.

I always wonder how devastating this movie really would be if that final, tight hug wasn't shown.  I think the film would be almost unbearable if we didn't see something positive at the end of the argument scene.  Granted, Jack's eyes are awfully sad and confused looking at the very end.  But, still that hug leaves us at least with the image of something hopeful.   I also think, ironically, that Ennis's "I can't stand this anymore" is a good sign.  As others have noted, since this is part of his motto- "if you can't fix it you've got to stand it"... it seems to indicate that since he can't stand it, he must try to fix it.  "Give up on it" isn't an option here.

I agree and like the way you laid out these thoughts. Remember that the hug was not in the book nor in the 2003 screenplay. That hug is one of my favorite scenes in the movie. As I have said before I do wish the show all thise last moments untill Ennis gets in his truck. Even if it was just jack picking Ennis up after a bit walking to the truck planting a kiss on his cheek... "see you in November....."
What was also not in the 2003 screenplay is the inside of either of the tent scenes. Thankyou Ang.i

[Rayn]

.....Note also that when Junior tells Ennis she’s getting married, he doesn’t respond with the usual “Do you love him?” – as most fathers would. Ennis says “Now this Kurt fella… he loves you?” This signals to us that Ennis has made the connection that Jack loved Ennis (thanks also to the shirts).

And so we end our story of Ennis del Mar at a closet, with a postcard and the two shirts. He has carefully arranged his memories of Jack and of Brokeback Mountain. He keeps the picture of Brokeback hanging straight. He snaps a button.  When the shirts were in Jack’s closet, Jack’s shirt was on top of Ennis’ shirt. Jack had his arms around Ennis, comforting him. Now, in probably his only act of true acknowledgement that what he felt for Jack was love, Ennis has hung the shirts with Ennis’ arms wrapped around Jack, holding him forever.

Hello Everyone...

I think what Ruthlesslyunsentimental wrote in his long essay is pretty accurate even if some of it is just guessing at what might have happened.  The guessing stands on good reasoning and other things he wrote are plainly true, but being the hopeful "Jack" that I am in many ways, I'd still like to believe that Jack did set a time for Ennis to decide...  by November.   Of course we have know way of knowing that.  It's just a good guess. We know Jack was making other plans, because of Randall, for sure, and to tell the truth, I don't see Ennis changing either.  No,  what it often takes to wake a man like Ennis up to the deeper realities of life is an event so powerful, so devastating that it turns everything upside down and inside out. 

Ennis did really need to turn himself inside out, but he didn't have the means or know-how to do that. 

That he realizes Jack's love and his own love for Jack in the end is actually miraculous given his character and the realization does change Ennis for the better.  He reaches out to people, calling Jack's wife, meeting his parents, expressing his grief.  He knows the wonderful connection he had with Jack is Love and there is nothing "queer" about it.  It is written all over his face, as Ruthlessly points out, when he asks his daughter... "This feller Kurt... He loves you?".   The connection has been made in his mind and heart.  That is what is all important to him, "He loves you."... something he sadly could not realize while Jack was alive. 

Thanks for your post, Ruthlessly...

Rayn

PS: The last paragraph is most beautiful and sweet and I don't believe for a moment that you are Ruthless or unsentimental.  A clear thinker, yes, but there's romance and strong sentiments (feelings) in what you write, so they have to be in you too, Ruthlessly; you ain't foolin' me!  Reason and feelings can work together to balance one another, and in the best writing, in the best people, they usually do.    R.

[ednbarby]

Once again I'm late to the dance & everyone's already paired up...

Anyway - I read elsewhere (was it TOB?) the thread about Jack "quitting" Ennis & posted a response.  Since I now have no idea where it was, I would like to offer my Ennisesq response again.

From my observation, I saw that Jack was definitely considering quitting Ennis, thus the conversation the last night at the lake, including "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."  Jack was looking for some hope from Ennis & got none.

When Ennis cancelled August, Jack was back to mulling over whether to end the relationship then & there, thus the "I wish I knew how to quit you." 

Ennis saying, "Why don't you then..." gave Jack the permission he needed.  BUT, when Ennis uncontrollably collapsed (from the thought that the relationship was ending - that Jack had been with other men & all the emotion that that absolute fear brought to him), Jack could not stand it. 

Jack came back, emotionally & physically to Ennis.  He moved to hold him & despite the perfect opportunity to say "OK" , fought to bring Ennis back to him when Ennis tried denying his feelings w/ "Get the fuck off of me!"  And Jack, who was almost there, almost ready to break away, said, "Damn you, Ennis".

The last view of Jack for me is his inner turmoil now.  He was almost there.  Almost ready to let Ennis go.  Now where was he?  Hurt & confused and no further resolved than before, remembering how much he loves Ennis.

The conversation Jack had w/ his folks at Ligthning Flat was an attempt to move on.  But 'the ranch neighbor' had no name.  Unlike Ennis. 

And when Ennis came to the Twist ranch, Jack's mother knew this was the love of Jack's life.  And that is why she so gently touched Ennis when her husband mentioned the ranch neighbor - to assure Ennis that the ranch neighbor comment should not hurt him -  & why she encouraged Ennis to go to Jack's room & KNEW, with that nod & smile, what those shirts meant when she saw Ennis cradling them.

Now, that's more words than I'd wrote all year...

Thanks for saving them up for us, Silk.  They were well worth the wait.

I think you're absolutely right.  Your words are so convincing that you've convinced me my view was wrong.  Or at least not quite right.  I missed the target but hit the tree.  Of course that's what "Damn you, Ennis" means.  He was *almost* there.  Of course.  It makes me feel better and worse for him at the same time.  And your observation that Jack never gave "the ranch neighbor" a name like he did with Ennis (and he didn't just stop at Ennis... "Jack used a say 'Ennis del Mar,' he used a say...").  That's right on, too.

Thank you.

And I love your first line in the post and the way you put things in general.  Always brings a smile to my face.  You don't say much.  But you get your point across.  Always. 

[jpwagoneer1964]

Once again I'm late to the dance & everyone's already paired up...

Anyway - I read elsewhere (was it TOB?) the thread about Jack "quitting" Ennis & posted a response.  Since I now have no idea where it was, I would like to offer my Ennisesq response again.

From my observation, I saw that Jack was definitely considering quitting Ennis, thus the conversation the last night at the lake, including "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."  Jack was looking for some hope from Ennis & got none.

When Ennis cancelled August, Jack was back to mulling over whether to end the relationship then & there, thus the "I wish I knew how to quit you." 

Ennis saying, "Why don't you then..." gave Jack the permission he needed.  BUT, when Ennis uncontrollably collapsed (from the thought that the relationship was ending - that Jack had been with other men & all the emotion that that absolute fear brought to him), Jack could not stand it. 

Jack came back, emotionally & physically to Ennis.  He moved to hold him & despite the perfect opportunity to say "OK" , fought to bring Ennis back to him when Ennis tried denying his feelings w/ "Get the fuck off of me!"  And Jack, who was almost there, almost ready to break away, said, "Damn you, Ennis".

The last view of Jack for me is his inner turmoil now.  He was almost there.  Almost ready to let Ennis go.  Now where was he?  Hurt & confused and no further resolved than before, remembering how much he loves Ennis.

The conversation Jack had w/ his folks at Ligthning Flat was an attempt to move on.  But 'the ranch neighbor' had no name.  Unlike Ennis. 

And when Ennis came to the Twist ranch, Jack's mother knew this was the love of Jack's life.  And that is why she so gently touched Ennis when her husband mentioned the ranch neighbor - to assure Ennis that the ranch neighbor comment should not hurt him -  & why she encouraged Ennis to go to Jack's room & KNEW, with that nod & smile, what those shirts meant when she saw Ennis cradling them.

Now, that's more words than I'd wrote all year...

Hi. Very well written and very heartwarming. I knew Jack wouldn't quit Ennis.

[dly64]

From my observation, I saw that Jack was definitely considering quitting Ennis, thus the conversation the last night at the lake, including "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."  Jack was looking for some hope from Ennis & got none.

I have to disagree with you on this one. We don’t see Ennis saying anything. What we do see is Ennis and Jack sleeping in the tent with Ennis’ arm around Jack. This is not insignificant.  It is extremely powerful since it is usually Jack we see comforting Ennis, not the other way around.

When Ennis cancelled August, Jack was back to mulling over whether to end the relationship then & there, thus the "I wish I knew how to quit you." 

Ennis saying, "Why don't you then..." gave Jack the permission he needed.  BUT, when Ennis uncontrollably collapsed (from the thought that the relationship was ending - that Jack had been with other men & all the emotion that that absolute fear brought to him), Jack could not stand it. 

Jack came back, emotionally & physically to Ennis.  He moved to hold him & despite the perfect opportunity to say "OK" , fought to bring Ennis back to him when Ennis tried denying his feelings w/ "Get the fuck off of me!"  And Jack, who was almost there, almost ready to break away, said, "Damn you, Ennis".

Again, I am not sure that I agree. I think Jack was frustrated. He had a lot of physical needs that were not getting met. When Jack said “I wish I knew how to quit you” … it was not because he really wanted the relationship to end. Same with Ennis’ statement … “why don’t you?” These two couldn’t quit each other even if they tried. They were intertwined. They were dependent upon each other. Jack knew that Ennis was not giving him permission to leave. Ennis was speaking out of hurt and, yes, betrayal. But everything they said was not a surprise. They both knew the truth.

The last view of Jack for me is his inner turmoil now.  He was almost there.  Almost ready to let Ennis go.  Now where was he?  Hurt & confused and no further resolved than before, remembering how much he loves Ennis.

The more I think about it, the more I think that the look on Jack’s face is one of sadness because he knows what could have been. The expression is seen after Jack’s recollection of a time when it was the two of them  … when they were not subjected to societal expectations and fear. It is also important to note that it is Ennis who is comforting Jack, not the other way around. Jack is fully aware that Ennis loves him as Jack loves Ennis. Jack could not have a life without Ennis. IMO, even if Jack would have moved in with Randall, he would have continued to see Ennis. Jack is drawn to Ennis as Ennis is drawn to Jack.

The conversation Jack had w/ his folks at Lightning Flat was an attempt to move on.  But 'the ranch neighbor' had no name.  Unlike Ennis. 

And when Ennis came to the Twist ranch, Jack's mother knew this was the love of Jack's life.  And that is why she so gently touched Ennis when her husband mentioned the ranch neighbor - to assure Ennis that the ranch neighbor comment should not hurt him -  & why she encouraged Ennis to go to Jack's room & KNEW, with that nod & smile, what those shirts meant when she saw Ennis cradling them.

I agree with most of what you have said, with the exception of Jack’s attempt to move on. I think Jack had needs that were not being met with Ennis on a regular basis. Randall could fill those basic needs. Ennis, however, could only satisfy the closeness, the “shared and sexless hunger” that Jack craved.

[ednbarby]

I have to disagree with you on this one. We don’t see Ennis saying anything. What we do see is Ennis and Jack sleeping in the tent with Ennis’ arm around Jack. This is not insignificant.  It is extremely powerful since it is usually Jack we see comforting Ennis, not the other way around.

Ah, but does Jack know Ennis has his arm around him?  And if he could see his troubled brow and restless sleep with that arm around him, would it comfort him or make him feel further alienated from him?

Again, I am not sure that I agree. I think Jack was frustrated. He had a lot of physical needs that were not getting met. When Jack said “I wish I knew how to quit you” … it was not because he really wanted the relationship to end. Same with Ennis’ statement … “why don’t you?” These two couldn’t quit each other even if they tried. They were intertwined. They were dependent upon each other. Jack knew that Ennis was not giving him permission to leave. Ennis was speaking out of hurt and, yes, betrayal. But everything they said was not a surprise. They both knew the truth.

The more I think about it, the more I think that the look on Jack’s face is one of sadness because he knows what could have been. The expression is seen after Jack’s recollection of a time when it was the two of them  … when they were not subjected to societal expectations and fear. It is also important to note that it is Ennis who is comforting Jack, not the other way around. Jack is fully aware that Ennis loves him as Jack loves Ennis. Jack could not have a life without Ennis. IMO, even if Jack would have moved in with Randall, he would have continued to see Ennis. Jack is drawn to Ennis as Ennis is drawn to Jack.

I agree with most of what you have said, with the exception of Jack’s attempt to move on. I think Jack had needs that were not being met with Ennis on a regular basis. Randall could fill those basic needs. Ennis, however, could only satisfy the closeness, the “shared and sexless hunger” that Jack craved.

I think that when Jack said "I wish I knew how to quit you," he really was just thinking out loud, as he always did, that he wished he could find a way to let Ennis go because holding on was killing him.  Then, as Silk (and Ruthlessly) said, Ennis ironically showed him how.  But I agree with you and now, Silk, that ultimately he never fully could, not like he wished he could.  And I see Jack going up to Lightning Flat, mentioning "the ranch neighbor" to his parents/Dad (but not giving him his name because deep down he's not serious) out of frustration, then going back to Childress and drinking himself unconscious every day from then on.  I don't even see him getting together any more with Randall - at least not seriously - because he doesn't respect him enough (again, if he did, he'd have mentioned his name, as Silk so laser-sharply pointed out).  And like David, I see him getting himself into trouble one way or the other while under the influence because he can't quit Ennis ("Damn you, Ennis").

 

[dly64]

Ah, but does Jack know Ennis has his arm around him?  And if he could see his troubled brow and restless sleep with that arm around him, would it comfort him or make him feel further alienated from him?

I think it is no coincidence that we go from the “Tell you what …. the truth is …. sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it” straight to the tent scene with Ennis’ arm around Jack. Jack is fully aware that Ennis’ arm is around him. IMO, they had just made love and fell asleep while Ennis was comforting and holding Jack.

I am not sure that I understand the second part of your statement. Are you saying that Ennis has the troubled brow or Jack? Let me just put it this way …. Ennis’ arm around Jack is reminiscent of the “dozy embrace” flashback we see later. That memory is one of warmth and comfort. I think that is what Jack is feeling in the tent.