Why is the "dozy embrace" in the film?

[dly64]

As I was reflecting back on the “dozy embrace”, I started to think about Ennis’ POV. We, the audience, know that this is Jack’s recollection. Whether or not the film negates or supports the suggestion that Ennis holds Jack from behind because he “doesn’t want to see or feel that it Jack he holds” is irrelevant. The only hint I get is from Annie Proulx’s “Getting Movied” essay is when she says (in regards to Ennis) … “…the moment mixed with childhood loss and his refusal to admit he was holding a man.”

What does BBM represent? IMO, it represents a place without constraints, societal conditions and expectations. The mountains, in general, represent freedom … the points reaching up to the sky. It is the grandeur of BBM that transports Jack and Ennis to another place and time … the feeling of invincibility and invisibility. It is just the two of them and nothing else matters.

Back to this very tender and intimate moment. This is one of the few times where Ennis is comforting Jack, not the other way around. (We see a reflection of this during the lake scene in TS3). Does Ennis see Jack’s vulnerability at that moment? Does Ennis know what it means (to Jack) to feel loved, soothed and held? In addition to Ennis’ parents, Jack is the most important person in his life. Is it that, at that moment, Ennis becomes his parents … the comforting mother who sings a lullaby and the homophobic father who could not bare the thought of holding a man?

Just food for thought.

[Brown Eyes]

Back to the topic of what Cassie means when she tells Alma Jr. that she "gets her point across"... I agree that I think Cassie is stuck on the "good enough" part of the conversation.  My guess is that Cassie thinks that Alma doesn't like her and is nearly insulting her to her face.  I don't think Cassie ever figures Ennis out either.

[Samrim]

<< If they saw each other more often, maybe Ennis would stop lighting up like a 10,000 watt lightbulb when he saw Jack>>.

I love that nakymaton,  Ennis DOES light up everytime he sees his 'friend' (I wanted to use 'lover', or 'beloved' or 'little darlin' there, but like Annie, little is more). Anyway, Alexander's Hephaistion was his 'friend' too in my deeply loved Mary Renault stories.

As an off topic aside I saw 'Alexander'  recently, and enjoyed it a lot (our Mr Preato was behind the camera again I gather), but hated the characterization of Hephaistion as an over madeup catamite. In M.R. he was Alexander's alter ego.

Sorry for the diversion!   

[Front-Ranger]

I think Alma Jr. and her dad were very close. They both didn't speak much but they both were close studies of the human condition. Both of them were very perceptive about others, for the same reason--lack of parental love and attention. Watch and listen as Alma Jr. and Ennis talk in the cab of his truck. They finish each other's sentences, they complete each other's thoughts. Alma Junior is really Ennis Junior. When Alma says "You're good enough" it's really Ennis talking, with the implication "...but you're not Jack."

[dly64]

I think Alma Jr. and her dad were very close. They both didn't speak much but they both were close studies of the human condition. Both of them were very perceptive about others, for the same reason--lack of parental love and attention. Watch and listen as Alma Jr. and Ennis talk in the cab of his truck. They finish each other's sentences, they complete each other's thoughts. Alma Junior is really Ennis Junior. When Alma says "You're good enough" it's really Ennis talking, with the implication "...but you're not Jack."

That's an interesting thought. A quick question .... even though Alma, Jr. and Ennis complete each others' thoughts and sentences, are you also saying that she (Alma, Jr.) did not get the parental love and attention she needed from Ennis (who she is close to)? If you are saying that Ennis did not give his kids the emotional consideration that they craved, I would agree with that. I would also agree that Ennis did the best he could to show his daughters that he loved them. But, as with Jack, Ennis could not express his feelings of affection for anyone and used work as a way to keep those he cared about at bay.  Ennis had a way of unintentionally hurting those who were closest to him.

As for Alma, Jr.’s comment to Cassie …. are you saying that Alma. Jr. knows Ennis is in love with a man (at that moment)? Or that she is just reflecting Ennis’ thought that Cassie is a distraction?

[Front-Ranger]

Yes, I believe that Alma Jr. was crazy about her dad and did not get enough attention from him...but what daughter does get all the attention she needs from a dad?? I am thrilled that my daughter and her dad are very close... And Alma Jr. didn't get the attention she wanted from her mom. When Jr. was small, Alma was very attentive, but when the third baby came along, Jr. said Alma and Monroe were "strict with her" to the point that she wanted to move out.

On whether Jr. knows Ennis is in love with Jack, yes, I think she figured it out. She is a smart girl, and because she doesn't talk much she is able to watch, listen, and be perceptive. She has an unspoken bond with her dad. I'm sure she would have felt the vibes between her dad and Jack even during that brief encounter. And that time when she was unceremoniously dumped in her mother's arms while her dad went away, hugging her mom while she was wracked with sobs--if that had happened to me it would have been indelibly marked in my memory.

[dly64]

Yes, I believe that Alma Jr. was crazy about her dad and did not get enough attention from him...but what daughter does get all the attention she needs from a dad?? I am thrilled that my daughter and her dad are very close... And Alma Jr. didn't get the attention she wanted from her mom. When Jr. was small, Alma was very attentive, but when the third baby came along, Jr. said Alma and Monroe were "strict with her" to the point that she wanted to move out.

On whether Jr. knows Ennis is in love with Jack, yes, I think she figured it out. She is a smart girl, and because she doesn't talk much she is able to watch, listen, and be perceptive. She has an unspoken bond with her dad. I'm sure she would have felt the vibes between her dad and Jack even during that brief encounter. And that time when she was unceremoniously dumped in her mother's arms while her dad went away, hugging her mom while she was wracked with sobs--if that had happened to me it would have been indelibly marked in my memory.

I think what you are saying is perceptive. From a psychological standpoint, children who do not get what they need from one parent or another, there is the need to please. I see that with Jack and his father (the SOB OMT). I also see that with Ennis’ kids. Despite his lack of parental support, his daughters (especially junior) put him on a pedestal (it is obvious during the Thanksgiving scene). In addition to when Alma, Jr. was little being held by her mother while she (Alma) fell apart …. the Thanksgiving fiasco would have also been a big clue.

There is also a sense, IMO, that Alma, Jr. is somewhat protective of her dad. Her expression when Ennis drives up with Cassie in the car is one of, “who is this woman and why are you wasting your time?”

[Front-Ranger]

You're so right (do U have more of a name, or did yr parents just stop at dly64? ) Those are two other good examples. ALso, remember when Ennis and Jr. are talking in the cab and she cuts him off when he starts to say, "That doesn't mean I wouldn't like..." She protects him from having to squeamishly say he loves her, even jumping out of the truck before he can say goodbye. No hugs, no I love you, but he does call her sweetheart. I would have liked to hear little darlin there... 

[dly64]

You're so right (do U have more of a name, or did yr parents just stop at dly64? ) Those are two other good examples. Also, remember when Ennis and Jr. are talking in the cab and she cuts him off when he starts to say, "That doesn't mean I wouldn't like..." She protects him from having to squeamishly say he loves her, even jumping out of the truck before he can say goodbye. No hugs, no I love you, but he does call her sweetheart. I would have liked to hear little darlin there... 

Believe it or not … you have triggered a thought when you said, “do U have more of a name, or did yr parents just stop at dly64? ” (By the way, it is Diane).

I think there is significance when Jack introduces himself and Ennis replies by only giving his first name. Jack asks him, “did your folks just stop at Ennis?” and Ennis adds, “del Mar.” After that point, Ennis refers to himself as Ennis del Mar. He says this to Cassie and Lureen. Cassie also says to Ennis, “I don’t get you Ennis del Mar” and OMT says, “Jack used to say …. Ennis del Mar ….” In some ways I see this as symbolizing Ennis as a lost soul (when we first meet him outside Aguirre’s trailer)  … a young boy who has experienced great loss and poverty in his life. A boy who has never experienced true love …. who sees himself as insignificant. When Jack asks him about his last name, he is on the road to self realization. He finds, in Jack, the strength to become himself. Food for thought! 

[stevenedel]

In some ways I see this as symbolizing Ennis as a lost soul (when we first meet him outside Aguirre's trailer) ...  a young boy who has experienced great loss and poverty in his life. A boy who has never experienced true love... who sees himself as insignificant. When Jack asks him about his last name, he is on the road to self realization. He finds, in Jack, the strength to become himself. Food for thought! 

Nice thought. When Jack and Ennis first meet, Ennis is all but alone in the world. His family name means little to him, beacuse he hardly has any family left to fall back on. I like it how the memory of that first meeting is invoked when he meets Cassie. He introduces himself as Ennis, than hesitates for a beat, then adds Del Mar. During the brief silence in between you can almost hear Jack say "You folks just stop at Ennis"?