Author Topic: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights  (Read 8955 times)

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,426
  • No crybabies
Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2009, 12:06:39 pm »
Gary, that was a VERY thoughtful and intelligent answer.

Maybe some of the men deserve to be outed, and maybe some of them don’t.

How does one determine who deserves it and who doesn't?? And more to my original question, what good does it do??

If we lived in a country where there was no social price to pay for being out, then everyone would be out, even these closeted men of authority.

I disagree. There are men out there in any number of situations that would still want their homosexuality to be kept discreet. Especially those with families. Even if a wife accepts her husband's bisexuality and is comfortable with having an open marriage, they might still want to keep it under wraps to avoid questions from others about fidelity .
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,426
  • No crybabies
Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2009, 12:58:14 pm »
Those people who care about hypocrisy in our elected officials - and their acts - will withdraw their support from him/her and s/he therefore loses the ability to do further harm.

I think that in some cases you are right. The offending legislator would be voted out of office because of the scandal.

But then we have to take into consideration the Marion Barry syndrome. You get caught red-handed doing drugs with a prostitute, and your constituents decide that you have done some much good as an elected official, that it out-weighs the scandal and they elect you back into office.

Another thing to consider is that regardless of any hypocrisy we might perceive, there might be people in the constituency of the legislator in question who would agree that whatever vote he made was the right choice.

Yet another possible outcome is that homophobes might look at a political outing and be affirmed by the whole thing. As if to say that being gay is so bad that the politician needed to hide it. Moreover, that gays themselves are so bad that they would throw one of their own under the bus. The lack of unity expressed via hypocritical legislation and the subsequent outing, could fuel the negative opinions of homophobes. Although I must say that I am for less concerned about this outcome.

So overall, I think that outing such a politician is only effective in some cases as a tool to remove him from public office.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,426
  • No crybabies
Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2009, 01:09:19 pm »
Sorry, but it seems to me that any politician who can be reasonably shown to be gay, or even bisexual, who actively works against gay rights, deserves to be outed.

Again, why? What does the gay community get out of it? Is it simply a punitive measure? Is it a way of warning other politicians, regardless of sexual orientation, that the same fate might befall them is they cross the gay community?

(I feel essentially the same way for the family of a heterosexual politician caught patronizing prostitutes. Take the Eliot Spitzer situation for an example. I feel sorry for Mrs. Spitzer and their daughters, but the fault for "ruining" their lives lies with Spitzer, not with the media who "outed" his patronizing of a high-end hooker.)

In the case of prostitution, I'm more inclined to agree. Prostitution is a crime, and I don't believe that politicians should be allowed to get away with any crime.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

injest

  • Guest
Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2009, 07:17:35 pm »
One can be open to change and still be true to one’s self, but if a change is made then it should be an honest change, as apposed to a manipulation or a lie in order to fool someone.  Being true to yourself is not selfish, not even in the context of a relationship.  Not many want to be in a relationship with someone who isn’t honest about who they are.  And if someone does happen to want a partner who is a lap dog or a poser, then there’s something wrong with that I think

ok...but that is not what you said earlier I do not think....

We all set our own boundaries.  We all make our own choices.  Some of us make unpopular choices.  This is true of gay people just as well as straight people.  Is there a price to be paid for making choices that are unpopular?  Of course.  But just because something is unpopular doesn't make it wrong.  Just as something that is popular, and thus wins favor, doesn't make it right.

Do I adopt the boundaries set for me by the prevailing culture in which I live?  I often times do, yes.  It is generally easier to just go along to get along.  And usually the compromises I make with my own personal sense of morality or sense of self aren't that important to me.  But I would consider breaking convention and even the law if I felt strongly about something.  I think people sometimes need to follow their own conscience and heart regardless of the possible consequences.  This is the difference between being your own person and being a bootlicker.


or maybe I am reading it incorrectly?

in the second you state you will conform...for expediency...that is different from changing your basic beliefs

injest

  • Guest
Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2009, 07:22:13 pm »
oh yeah...I can just bet some guy is just dying to tie up his money and months of his life in a courtroom because some guy claimed to have sex with him.

so nice..

injest

  • Guest
Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #45 on: April 30, 2009, 07:23:39 pm »
and yeah, I do consider prostitutes to be untrustworthy...especially where money is involved. If they are willing to let some guy pee on them for a fiver, I can't imagine lying thru their teeth is gonna really be that much of a leap out of their moral comfort zone...

Offline louisev

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,107
  • "My guns and amo!! Over my cold dead hands!!"
    • Fiction by Louise Van Hine
Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2009, 09:37:11 pm »

In the case of prostitution, I'm more inclined to agree. Prostitution is a crime, and I don't believe that politicians should be allowed to get away with any crime.

prostitution is not a crime everywhere.  It is legal in some parts of the US as well as some countries in Europe.  In Germany they belong to a union and have full union benefits and health care.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


injest

  • Guest
Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #47 on: April 30, 2009, 11:12:14 pm »
prostitution is not a crime everywhere.  It is legal in some parts of the US as well as some countries in Europe.  In Germany they belong to a union and have full union benefits and health care.

yeah...but even with all that...they are still


WHORES

injest

  • Guest
Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #48 on: April 30, 2009, 11:12:50 pm »
yeah, I AM a whoraphobe...

 :laugh: :laugh:

Offline delalluvia

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,289
  • "Truth is an iron bride"
Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2009, 12:40:27 am »
Being a prostitute in a country where it is illegal, does not make a prostitute the best sort of witness.  Due to the criminal nature of her/his occupation and the fact that they continue in their occupation for whatever reason, clearly flouting the law, it stands to reason that many people would doubt their word out of hand seeing as they have already demonstrated an ethical/moral flexibility, a disdain for what society considers correct behavior and a willingness to put their bodies and health at risk for low monetary gain.  Why would slandering someone for money be a problem for such a person, one might imagine.

Now, prostitutes can be witnesses.  No one doubts that they can tell the truth and truly report what they saw, just like any other person.  It's just that they don't come across as credible in a court of law for all the above reasons, especially if they're also known drug/alcohol abusers.