Author Topic: The true reason  (Read 33610 times)

Scott6373

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The true reason
« on: August 08, 2006, 08:58:38 am »
I was having a dicussion with some friends about BBM last Friday night.  It was  mix of stright and gay, older and younger (at least young to me), married, single, etc.  As the discussion went along, we got to why it had such a profound effect on so many.  I've never really found a universal answer to that, but as we all talked, this thought started to crystalize.  Could it be that it is so effecting because we are jealous.  Jealous of the kind of love that Jack and Ennis shared.  That perhaps (though we would never admit it), we will never know the feeling of needing and wanting someone so badly that you can't even breathe.  Just a thought for discussion.  Our discussion got pretty heated.

Offline ednbarby

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Re: The true reason
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2006, 10:09:06 am »
Interesting thought.  I think that's certainly one of the reasons it's affected many people so profoundly.  But I also know that some of us have actually experienced that kind of love and have lost it.  So we relate to it on that level.

The best answer I've heard was something Eric (sferic) said when I was in San Francisco - it's probably been posted here, too (and probably by me, come to think of it) in some form.  And that's that it affects those of us it's affected so strongly because we all were at a place in our lives in which we were emotionally ready to receive it when we first saw it.  Where that place is varies from person to person.  Some of us want that kind of all-consuming passion and love and have never experienced it.  Some of us have experienced it and lost it and are in a place where we're especially missing it.  Some of us have been denying an essential part of ourselves to ourselves for a long time and were ready for a catalyst of change.  Some of us have a dear friend who is gay and still in the closet and were ready to have the pain he's been experiencing his whole life illuminated fully for us.

In one form or another, I think we were all living our lives in chains and were ready to be handed the key we've had all along.  I picked my signature quote because it resonated so much with this movie on so many levels.  I think maybe the answer lies in it, too.
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Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: The true reason
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2006, 11:07:42 am »
I'm sure I understand why this thought resulted in a heated discussion.  The accusation (as some might conclude) of jealousy can imply a certain amount of selfish resentment related to missing out on that sort of love, and I would agree with them that within this context it is unfair.  In response to this you could argue that jealousy can also be analogous to a "longing", but the need for the qualification makes me think that "jealousy" is not quite right.  If this were true, then the many other films that have a profound love within them would affect people equally: was anyone so moved by for so long by Titanic or (dare I say) Pearl Harbour???

No, the more I think about it, although many of us may dream of (or remember) a love as profound as Jack & Ennis' and this may be a contributing factor, I don't think it's the reason we are so affected.  I actually think it's a "trick" of the method of storytelling that was employed to suck us into the story and at a very deep level and to take on the emotions of the characters.  Specifically, and in its simplest level, when we first watch BBM we see it mostly from the perspective of Ennis (even if we are attracted or identify with other characters more so) and as we progress through the film we form an opinion of what the characters are thinking and feeling.  But then the dozy embrace comes along and we realise that this was a deep love that they shared, and then the very next scene is Ennis receiving the post card with deceased on it.  The affect of this is that we have a "oh my god they were so much in love" thought that is quickly replaced with a "oh my god he's dead" thought.  We become Ennis finally realising what he had, but it was too late for both Ennis and us also.  The cool thing about this though is that we get to watch the film again and again and rather than spoiling it (because we know what's going to happen), we now see the relationship with open eyes and we can see the truth of the depth of love that was always there but somehow we missed it...  just as Ennis did!

This is one film that nails this technique with such accuracy (and subtlety) that we can spend months analysing it and enjoying it and we never feel patronised or betrayed (as opposed to the Sixth Sense which does this mainly for shock value).  But back to the first viewing of BBM, the purpose of the "trick" was so that we could identify with Ennis' feeling of loss, because he had perfect love and lost it before he knew what was happening, and we all had that same experience while watching it.  This is the true genius of Ang Lee and the writers: audience buy-in and genuine emotional involvement.
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

Offline Meryl

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Re: The true reason
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2006, 11:29:33 am »
We become Ennis finally realising what he had, but it was too late for both Ennis and us also.

Chris, your whole comment is right on, but I think this is the heart of it.  The chains that Barb mentions function as blinders as well, causing Ennis to keep himself in the dark about what Jack means in his life.  Add to that the tragic fact that Ennis bought into the poisonous view of his society and allowed it to dictate his behavior and his view of himself, and you have a devastating situation that no feeling person can be unaffected by.  :'(
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Scott6373

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Re: The true reason
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2006, 11:43:30 am »
While I could agree that "jealousy" may not be the appropriate term for everyone, it is, in fact, the one I meant.  The ensuing debate (at my gathering), was fairly split.  Quite a few ponderred the concept of jealousy and envy, and admitted that yes they were...I'm so glad I wasn't with them on the drive home with their partners.  To be honest, Im really not envious of the portrayed love between the two men.  If I had been either one fo them, I would found the nearest and highest bridge to jump off of.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: The true reason
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2006, 06:19:26 pm »
it's a "trick" of the method of storytelling that was employed to suck us into the story and at a very deep level and to take on the emotions of the characters.

Chris makes a number of excellent points, especially the sentence above -- I think the power of BBM has much to do with effective storytelling. I also think there are a few other "tricks" in addition to the ones Chris mentioned.

One is that we're led to see Jack's and Ennnis' love as so great it's almost beyond the realm of ordinary human experience -- it's not a regular old pedestrian love like most people have, where you meet and date for a while  and eventually maybe get more serious and blah blah blah. We are meant to see Ennis and Jack as almost superhuman when they're together -- soulmates, yin and yang, a force of nature, a pairing that belongs outside the confines of society and civilzation. Of course, there are practical reasons they exist outside society, mainly society's homophobia. But their association with mountains and water and sky and trees also serves to make their love seem more powerful and genuine and deep and pure.

In my view, another factor is we see how much each gives up to keep the love going -- in Ennis' case, it's being in love with Jack despite all his homophobia and shame and fear of being outed. For Jack, it's waiting for Ennis despite his disappointment and waning hope, missing Ennis so much he can hardly stand it, even after 20 years. They both struggle and sacrifice and suffer on behalf of their love (I know many would argue that Ennis doesn't sacrifice enough, but actually for him it's a lot). The value and depth of their love is proved by what they are willing to give up for it.

Another storytelling trick is subtlety and restraint and ambiguity. Because the film doesn't always tell us what characters are thinking or why they behave the way they do, we're drawn into their heads, get more involved, empathize with them at a deeper level. Most movies go out of their way to show in no uncertain terms what their characters are feeling. Viewers have it easier, but they see the characters from a more objective distance. For example, take the scene where Jack doesn't turn to watch Ennis bathing. Most movies would show him quickly glancing over and trying not to be noticable about it. If BBM did that, it would tell us something -- but it would be something we already know at that point (he's attracted to Ennis), so we'd understand what he's thinking yet we'd stay detached. The fact that Jack doesn't turn doesn't make us think he's not interested -- we already know he is. We have to make a greater effort to figure out why he does the opposite of what we'd expect, which makes us feel what he's feeling (temptation, self-restraint, frustration, bottled-up lust, whatever) at a deeper level. That same process happens again and again, every time a character acts ambiguously, which obviously is a lot, given that after all this time we're still discussing and arguing about it. What is Ennis thinking when he's eating pie in the bus station? Why didn't he respond to Jack's "miss you so much" comment? How does Jack feel about Randall's flirting? Was Jack really going to quit Ennis? The only way to answer these questions is by trying to understand the characters at a really deep level.

Compare some of these qualities to "Titanic" (that's the easy counter-example, being the other big popular recent romantic love story). Rose gives up something to go for Jack -- wealth and social status and her marriage -- but those sacrifices aren't as great as the ones made by Ennis' or BBM's Jack. We can see from the beginning she doesn't really value those things anyway. And Jack's only sacrifice to be with her is whatever risk he's taking of trouble from her husband.

Does Rose and Jack's love seem to exist outside normal human experience? Not really. It's outside traditional social rules. And though they do seem well suited for each other, there's nothing really superhuman about them as a couple (of course, they're only together for a couple of days, compared to 20 years for Jack and Ennis).

Is their behavior ambiguous? Well, if Rose and Jack are feeling anything beyond what they're acting out onscreen, it sure went over my head. Their emotions seem pretty clear and obvious. We might like the characters fine, but we don't empathize with them as deeply as we do Jack and Ennis.

And it's sad in the end when Titanic Jack dies. But unlike Ennis, Rose has nothing to regret -- on the contrary, her life afterward is much better for having met Jack, so their story ends semi-happily.

To all that I would add that Heath and Jake do a much better job of conveying passion and love than Leo and Kate do.

Of course, none of this explains why only WE appreciate these qualities about BBM when many others don't. That's still a mystery ...


Offline ednbarby

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Re: The true reason
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2006, 07:18:58 pm »
Of course, none of this explains why only WE appreciate these qualities about BBM when many others don't. That's still a mystery ...

Oh, hell, let's admit it:  We're just better than those other people.   ;D
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Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: The true reason
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2006, 07:24:25 pm »

Of course, none of this explains why only WE appreciate these qualities about BBM when many others don't. That's still a mystery ...


Could be our emotions run close to the surface. I know I would descrobe myself that way.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2006, 07:27:03 pm by jpwagoneer1964 »
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline Marty

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Re: The true reason
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2006, 07:31:23 pm »
I was having a dicussion with some friends about BBM last Friday night.  It was  mix of stright and gay, older and younger (at least young to me), married, single, etc.  As the discussion went along, we got to why it had such a profound effect on so many.  I've never really found a universal answer to that, but as we all talked, this thought started to crystalize.  Could it be that it is so effecting because we are jealous.  Jealous of the kind of love that Jack and Ennis shared.  That perhaps (though we would never admit it), we will never know the feeling of needing and wanting someone so badly that you can't even breathe.  Just a thought for discussion.  Our discussion got pretty heated.

I don't know why it had such an effect on so many, but I can say why it had an effect on me.  I'm a straight woman, in a relationship that transcends anything I could have expected.  I waited a long time for him, and had nearly given up on love when I met him.  We've been married nearly 16 years now, and we both tend to get bogged down with bills, housework, parenting, schedules, work, etc.  The movie reminded me what a gift it is to be able to spend my life with someone I love, and who loves me so completely.  As strange as it sounds, I saw us in Jack and Ennis, and I was determined not to let my husband die without knowing how much I treasure him.

(I've rewritten the preceeding paragraph 5 times to try to make it not so schmaltzy, but it's a lost cause.  I just can't.)

Marty

Offline ednbarby

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Re: The true reason
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2006, 09:37:07 pm »
I don't know why it had such an effect on so many, but I can say why it had an effect on me.  I'm a straight woman, in a relationship that transcends anything I could have expected.  I waited a long time for him, and had nearly given up on love when I met him.  We've been married nearly 16 years now, and we both tend to get bogged down with bills, housework, parenting, schedules, work, etc.  The movie reminded me what a gift it is to be able to spend my life with someone I love, and who loves me so completely.  As strange as it sounds, I saw us in Jack and Ennis, and I was determined not to let my husband die without knowing how much I treasure him.

(I've rewritten the preceeding paragraph 5 times to try to make it not so schmaltzy, but it's a lost cause.  I just can't.)

It's not schmaltzy at all, Marty - it's lovely.  And JP (Mark, is it?), that's not true in my case, sorry to say.  My emotions are welled so deep down inside of me that people who don't know me well sometimes describe me as cold - a little self-preservation technique I learned as a kid and unfortunately it's set in now.  I *hate* manipulative tear-jerkers in the movies and on TV - they actually make me mad.  I don't cry at movies.  Ever.  Hell, I don't cry.  And the second time I saw this movie, I thought I was going to start hyperventillating I was weeping so hard in the theater and at the same time trying so hard to stifle it.

For me - I think it was just what I needed (and still do, though not quite as much as before) at the time.  I'm starting to find that with other movies as well.  Movies that rocked my friends' worlds years ago and that made me just think (gasp!) "Yeah, it was well-done and all, but nothing to write home to Mother about" now move me profoundly on repeat viewings.  And movies that years ago made me go "WOW" now just make me go "Eh."  (These are really eloquent thoughts, huh?)
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