The true reason

[Aussie Chris]

Could I ask a dumb question?  I mean absolutely no offense and I'm certainly not annoyed, but what the hell is "emotional erotica" supposed to mean exactly???  I've resisted the urge to object to the chick-flick connotation (I see that as being beneath BBM in the first place) or that women are supposed to "get" something out of it differently than men, likewise gay & straight.  In my book emotions & erotica go together as well as army & intelligence.  So is erotica in this context meant to be taken as stimulus??  It doesn't seem right if it is because erotica does mean sexual stimulus, and putting emotional in front of it doesn't change that.  Or am I taking a bit of fun too literally here?

[serious crayons]

I don't know if you've read the past few pages of this thread, Chris, or the essay from the LA Times I posted a link to which triggered the discussion. Those might be helpful in answering your question. Briefly, the essay, written back in early January, was an attempt to explain one reason women like BBM when apparently, at that time, conventional wisdom held that it would appeal mainly to gay men. The writer, Meghan Daum, a woman, speculated that one reason might be that Jack and Ennis show a lot of emotion, whereas men in movies generally don't and men in real life stereotypically don't. The last sentence used the term "emotional pornography," which some people here found inappropriate, so somebody else suggested "emotional erotica" as an alternative.

But

  In my book emotions & erotica go together as well as army & intelligence.

Hunh?! Are you saying they're a contradiction in terms? In my book they're inseparable.

(And actually, the involvement of emotions might be one handy way to distinguish erotica from pornography.)

[Momof2]

When I first saw the movie and every time since, never have I thought, "Gee, it was nice to see two men showing affection."  I thought, Oh my God.  What an absolutely beautiful love story and then I thought I was going to be sick.  As I have said before and I know others have expressed, I was awe struck at the magnitude of their love and the tragedy of it. 

I know Ennis knows he loved Jack.  Even though it is nice to hear those three words, you can know it without hearing it.  I know as a straight woman, sometimes my husband does not say he loves me as much as I would like to hear but I know without question he does.  I would think that a man would have hard time saying I love you no matter what relationship they are in.  Are "gay" men supposed to be more "in touch" with their feelings than straight.  I found it sad that the TWO of them never said I love you, but not unbelievable.  And is the case most of the time, we realize the importance of things when it is to late to do anything about it.

Emotion and erotica go hand in hand with me.  How can you have one with out the other.  It is different than a one night stand which is neither.  That is just raw lust???

[dly64]

In my book emotions & erotica go together as well as army & intelligence.  So is erotica in this context meant to be taken as stimulus??  It doesn't seem right if it is because erotica does mean sexual stimulus, and putting emotional in front of it doesn't change that.  Or am I taking a bit of fun too literally here?

Hunh?! Are you saying they're a contradiction in terms? In my book they're inseparable.
 

Sorry … I have to agree with Chris on this one. Although I may be splitting hairs … as I have been known to do …. “erotica” is different than “erotic.” Erotica is a literary or artistic work that depicts something “erotic.”  “Erotic” is strongly marked or affected by sexual desire. To use the term “erotica” cheapens Jack and Ennis’ relationship (IMO).

I've always believed they both know and acknowledge to themselves they love the other, early on in their story, - Ennis too, even if he didn't use the word. In the midst of all their struggles they both knew what they had.

All the tragedy and missed opportunities and twarthed hopes and dreams in the film serves to put the love story in high relief, make it stand out all the clearer and more beautiful. Ennis and Jack had their love for each other tested and tried like few others, and they both had to make significant personal sacrifices, and still the love held. And even if they did not have much time together, and the entirely happy times were few, - they *did* have them. Moments of perfect happiness and passionate love with the one person they were destined to be with in all the world. What speaks to me especially is the very fact that what they had was so deeply real and true and pure despite all the pain and grief and loss, all the adversity, dangers, obstacles, difficulties, misunderstandings and setbacks. Perhaps you won't even ever be able to *experience* that level of truth and intense beauty in your life unless you also go through those darkest of places and the most difficult of times. That speaks to me on a *very* personal level these days.

Mikaela – as usual, you have expressed yourself beautifully. You are right …. very few of us will ever experience something this intense and pure. I think an important point you make is that this was not a “pie in the sky” depiction of love. It was difficult, it was painful. But it was also passionate and loving.

I am usually a romantic and an optimist. Somehow, this film has made me a realist. What I mean is that this film in no way, shape or form pretends that their love and relationship is some type of utopia. On the contrary … it shows what love can cost.

[Aussie Chris]

Hunh?! Are you saying they're a contradiction in terms? In my book they're inseparable.

(And actually, the involvement of emotions might be one handy way to distinguish erotica from pornography.)

Hmmm, once again I think I'm going to rush in where angels fear to tread.  Actually I think erotica is a term that people use when they're talking about pornography but don't want to use that word.  Basically, erotica = [artistic] pornography (and artistic is a very subjective term).  Sure you can use pornography in a derogatory way to mean sleaze, but the words pornography and erotica both relate to text and/or images that elicit sexual desire, whether it is done tastefully or not.

So back to emotional erotica.  I still don't understand.  Is this supposed to be the emotions of sexual desire, or the stimulation of sexual emotions?  Either way, I have trouble accepting these two words together, but not because I think that sex has nothing to do with emotion (or at least should have).  And without understanding this properly, I seriously have trouble associating Jack and Ennis' story with either pornography or erotica - that's offensive to me.

[Scott6373]

I need to throw this out there because it seems clearer and clearer to me.  

First let me say that I was as effected as anyone by BBM, but we have to separate masterful storytelling and the Hollywood portrayal of "love" and "passion" from what we all know is real.  Sure at the first blush of love, the physical and emotional investment is great, but as time goes on it mellows (if you're luck) into something that can exist on more than just the intense level that it may have been conceived on.

I started this thread with the topic of viewers feeling a sense of jealousy and envy toward our boys for the passionate love they had supposedly found, but the more I thought on the subject, the more I realized that what we saw in that film and experienced were cinematic recreations of real life, no matter how much truth the overall film told.

[silkncense]

Hmmm - I may be off base here but I was not referring (exclusively) to sexual desire. (And I must admit, I did not read the review that started the discussion so I may be in my own world here). 

The specific scenes that I referred to as 'emotional erotica' were not specifically sexual in content.  While it is clear that Jack & Ennis are sexual partners, in my mind, it is not necessary to have an emotional connection to a person to have sexual desire for them.  In fact, you could have love for a person and have sex with them and NOT have the 'emotional erotica' that is what I was trying to express.  That overwhelming passion for a person.  So deep in your gut that you can 'hardly stand it.' 

Most of the scenes that depitct what is supposedly 'love' in Brokeback are not.  How strong the sexual desire is is certainly debatable, but Ennis & his wife have sex several times on screen, Jack & Lureen have sex in the backseat of a car.  Nothing.  Did anyone feel any sexual tension or passion during those scenes?  I certainly didn't.  But the reunion kiss - that showed a passion that few ever find.  The dozy embrace shows an emotional love that transcends many partnerings (is that a word?).  And when Ennis collapsed at the lake - he was so emotionally devastated that his body couldn't maintain him.

This does not make this a 'chick flick' to me.  I can't imagine anyone not only being drawn to this special feeling but craving it.  Knowing that you are missing out if you don't ever have it -

And yet, that all-out, uncontrolled (not uncontrollable), enduring emotional love is not the story or lesson of Brokeback Mountain for me.  That is what Annie & Ang lured us in with.  Ultimately everyone has to decide what the lesson is for themselves.

[Momof2]

Other than the lake scence and the entire end of the film the reunion scene was one of the best.  To me it showed the absolute longing and passion they had for each other.  Ennis so afraid to be seen in public as "queer" just absolutely catches Jack by surprize.  You can see the shock in Jack's eyes.  Not that he was not accepting, just so shocked that Ennis showed these feelings to him in public.  So much passion and obvious longing.  If someone kissed me like that I think I would have died right there.  I was shocked (in a good way) when Ennis grabs him, throws him against the wall and kisses him. 

I agree, in all of the other sex scenes (the wives) there is no passion and I was like oh well.  But a totally different reaction to Jack and Ennis.  Oh to be so lucky and experience that kind of passion and outward desire for another human. 

[dly64]

First let me say that I was as effected as anyone by BBM, but we have to separate masterful storytelling and the Hollywood portrayal of "love" and "passion" from what we all know is real.  Sure at the first blush of love, the physical and emotional investment is great, but as time goes on it mellows (if you're luck) into something that can exist on more than just the intense level that it may have been conceived on.

I started this thread with the topic of viewers feeling a sense of jealousy and envy toward our boys for the passionate love they had supposedly found, but the more I thought on the subject, the more I realized that what we saw in that film and experienced were cinematic recreations of real life, no matter how much truth the overall film told.

Not that I don’t agree with you …. I just want to clarify. Are you saying that in real life, there is the intensity and passion for one another, but it mellows over time? (Which, by the way I completely agree … that is if you are speaking primarily on a physical level).

As for Ennis and Jack …. I think their love for each other is realistically portrayed (as much as can be in a work of fiction). What I am saying is that, yes, they have great passion for each other. And, yes, their sexual intimacy was passionate and intense throughout their entire relationship.  Beyond the sex, however, is a deep love for each other that could not be diminished. As I said earlier, BBM does not give an idealized portrayal of love. It shows the good and the bad, the happy and the painful sides to a relationship. Maybe that is why this film has touched the hearts of so many. It is their longing for each other and their struggles that make their relationship ring true.

[Scott6373]

Beyond the sex, however, is a deep love for each other that could not be diminished. As I said earlier, BBM does not give an idealized portrayal of love.

I'm not sure I can agree with that.  In every attempt to picture the two of them actually living a life togather openly, I get all bogged up, and that's because I don't think it would have ever worked out.  As Jack says, if you count up the times they had been togather in almost twenty years, it barely is enough to get past that initial sexual excitement.  Please don't misunderstand me.  They may have had a deep and abiding love for one another, but, yes, over time, love does mellow, phsyically and emotionaly, and changes dramatically, and I can't see them togather for very long.