Author Topic: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)  (Read 150728 times)

Offline serious crayons

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #110 on: September 16, 2006, 12:54:17 am »
I don't think fidelity is really the main point to the conversation. I mean, can they be worrying about being faithful to each other when they're still trying to come to grips with the fact that they really like having sex with each other?

OK, I just reread the part Jeff quoted and I see that you both may be right. Ennis isn't so much making sure Jack's been faithful as trying to figure things out: whether he's ------, why he can like doin it with women but it ain't nothin like this, why he had no thoughts a doin it with other guys yet still wrang it out thinkin a Jack.

Maybe I'm committing the cardinal mistake of imposing movie rules onto the story. And this is one of the scenes in which movie Ennis and story Ennis are the most different. Maybe if story Jack had said, "Yeah, from time to time -- that's just how I am," or "Well, you tend to meet guys on the rodeo circuit" or "I never thought I'd see you again and I had to explore other options" or whatever, it would have helped Ennis, possibly without upsetting him too much. I don't know that their relationship is fatally flawed because he doesn't say that, but in any case story Ennis might have been able to handle it. He was tougher.

But I think of poor movie Ennis spreading tar with his blabby coworker, watching the drive-in movie, in bed with his wife, all the while wistfully yearning for Jack. I don't think it would have gone over well if he found out that meanwhile Jack had been blithely fooling around with other guys. But then, as far as we can tell, movie Jack hadn't been.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #111 on: September 16, 2006, 01:26:43 am »
Maybe I'm committing the cardinal mistake of imposing movie rules onto the story.

No, you're just coming to grips with how different the movie and the story are.

In general, I think the story is a lot simpler psychologically than the movie. I would go along with the idea that fidelity isn't really the issue at the reunion, because they've been apart for four years, and it seems to me that you could say the Relationship really begins at the reunion, because that's where they've both figured out that they've got something between them. "This ain't no little thing that's happenin here," says Jack.

And I get the feeling that Jack's lie in the motel room in 1967 is the snowball that starts to roll down hill and just gets bigger and bigger until 1983. Then, just before Ennis collapses, "as if heart-shot," we read, "Like vast clouds of steam from thermal springs in winter the years of things unsaid and now unsayable--admissions, declarations, shames, guilts, fears--rose around them."

But I agree with you, it would not have gone over well at all if Movie Ennis had found out that Movie Jack had been cheerfully screwing other guys for four years, and I also agree that Movie Jack wasn't screwing other guys for those four years. I think that's one point of the Jimbo scene in the movie, to show us that Movie Jack isn't getting any mansex in that time. It would have been a different movie and a different Movie Jack if he had been.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #112 on: September 16, 2006, 01:38:09 am »
No, you're just coming to grips with how different the movie and the story are.

Well, I've always known that they're very different. Which is why I always object to imposing the rules of one on the other. I agree with what I believe you've said, Jeff, that they can be useful for understanding one another. But they're different enough that statements about one don't necessarily apply to the other.

My handicap is that I'm so much more comfortable with my analysis of the movie. So when someone says something about, say, Ennis' motivations in the story, I tend to picture movie Ennis, even though it might not apply to him.


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #113 on: September 16, 2006, 10:16:08 am »
So when someone says something about, say, Ennis' motivations in the story, I tend to picture movie Ennis, even though it might not apply to him.

Perfectly understandable, Little Darlin'!  ;)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #114 on: September 16, 2006, 10:43:46 am »
Quote
Quote from: latjoreme on Today at 12:38:09 am
So when someone says something about, say, Ennis' motivations in the story, I tend to picture movie Ennis, even though it might not apply to him.
Perfectly understandable, Little Darlin'!  ;)

 :laugh: 

Then again, I tend to picture movie Ennis even when nobody is talking about Brokeback at all!



Offline nakymaton

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #115 on: September 16, 2006, 10:52:42 am »
Hey, Katherine, I'm not surprised that you keep picturing movie-Ennis when talking about the story. I mean, given the opportunity, who wouldn't? ;D

But more seriously, I think the key difference between the story and the movie is that we see the love written all over both men's faces during that time on the mountain. And in the story, the love is this sudden revelation that we get at the very end of the story, after Jack's already dead. So in the movie, fidelity IS a big deal, because we know they're in love from the beginning, and I think that, at some level, they know as well. And it's significant that Jack doesn't start sleeping with other men until after the divorce -- it signals a real change in Jack, and a change in the relationship.

And I get the feeling that Jack's lie in the motel room in 1967 is the snowball that starts to roll down hill and just gets bigger and bigger until 1983. Then, just before Ennis collapses, "as if heart-shot," we read, "Like vast clouds of steam from thermal springs in winter the years of things unsaid and now unsayable--admissions, declarations, shames, guilts, fears--rose around them."

I'm not sure that Jack's lie in the motel room is the key thing that dooms the story relationship. If the relationship is built on a lie, it goes back to the mountain, to the claims that they aren't queer. I think the fidelity thing is just one small part of the "admissions, declarations, shames, guilts, fears." I think the bigger part is that, even after those 20 years, even though Jack's got those shirts in his closet the whole time, they haven't admitted to themselves or to each other that they're in love with each other. (And I guess I see infidelity as related, in some way, to not admitting the love.)
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #116 on: September 16, 2006, 01:29:34 pm »
Jack's lie in the motel room may not be the one and only key that dooms the relationship--clearly there are other factors--but I'm still convinced it leads directly to Ennis's collapse at the confrontation.

Ennis has heard about Mexico, and maybe he's even suspected that Jack's been to Mexico, but suspecting and having confirmation of your suspicion thrown in your face are two very different things. Until you get that confirmation, you can always hope you're wrong.

Anyway, here's what the Author Herself has to say about the motel scene in the story (from her "Getting Movied" essay):

Quote
In the written story the motel scene after a four-year hiatus stood as central. During their few hours in the Motel Siesta, Jack's and Ennis's paths were irrevocably laid out.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #117 on: September 16, 2006, 02:27:47 pm »
It’s not until Jack talks about wishing he knew how to quit him that Ennis breaks down—that’s the shot to the heart. Not Mexico, not doin’ it with other guys. All the other factors (“admissions, declarations, shames, guilts, fears”) are part of “It’s because of you, Jack, that I’m like this,” but the trigger is that now, suddenly, one of Ennis’s bedrocks is crumbling.

Barbara, that has always been my view, exactly. In fact, I don't even see it so much as one of Ennis' bedrocks as, well, Ennis' bedrock. I think this goes back to one of the big debates among Brokies (not quite as big as sorry/s'alright, but almost ...!). Did Ennis get upset in the lakeside argument mainly because he's afraid he's losing Jack, or mainly because of Jack's revelation about Mexico? And to the extent that it's the latter, is is more about being jealous that he's been unfaithful, or more about the implication that then Jack is gay and so, by extension, Ennis must be too?

I'm convinced it's much more about his fear of losing Jack. Again, I feel on much more comfortable ground discussing the movie, but at least I'm pretty sure it's true there.

The "admissions, declarations, shames, guilts, fears” is an interesting phrase. What are some of those As, Ds, Ss, Gs and Fs? I'd say that at least some of them -- S, G, F, maybe A -- have to do with being gay. And D (and maybe also A and F) has to do with love.  But do you all think they're any more specific than that?

Offline nakymaton

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #118 on: September 16, 2006, 04:17:02 pm »
I think it's possible that Ennis's reasons for the lake breakdown are different in the story and the movie -- or, at least, somewhat different. (And the breakdowns are different, too -- in the story, Ennis is entirely silent when he collapses. When I only had the story to go on, I thought that the trigger was Jack's mention of his "better idea" -- in the story, we only hear Jack mention living together once, in the motel, and Ennis interrupts him before Jack can even lay out the entire plan. I thought that Jack never mentioned the possibility again, until he says "I did once" at the final confrontation. Obviously, that isn't what happens in the movie, but I still think it's a valid story interpretation -- especially because of Ennis's reaction to the statement: Ennis said nothing, straightened up slowly, rubbed at his forehead; a horse stamped inside the trailer. He walked to his truck put his hand on the trailer, said something that only the horses could hear, turned and walked back at a deliberate pace. Ennis is already mad before he turns the attention to Jack's escapades in Mexico.))

The "admissions, declarations, shames, guilts, fears” is an interesting phrase. What are some of those As, Ds, Ss, Gs and Fs? I'd say that at least some of them -- S, G, F, maybe A -- have to do with being gay. And D (and maybe also A and F) has to do with love.  But do you all think they're any more specific than that?

Sure. Here are just few I can think of:

- I'm jealous that you've been with other men.
- Why the hell do you expect me to be faithful to you when you won't even listen to my plan for living together?
- I look forward to getting your postcards more than anything else.
- The only reason I like sleeping in a tent is so I can wake up beside you.
- That mustache tickles when we kiss.
- You know that old shirt of yours...?
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #119 on: September 16, 2006, 04:55:48 pm »
Let's bear in mind that the "It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this" line is film-only. Story Ennis doesn't say one little word. He just collapses on his knees, fists clenched and eyes screwed shut--and Jack isn't sure if he's had a heart attack or if it's "the overflow of an incendiary rage" that causes the collapse.

The implied threat to quit Ennis is surely is part of the collapse, but can you really parse out a single cause here? Jack's just let go at him with both barrels. And considering that Ennis has just threatened to kill Jack, I still think the infidelity is a big deal to Ennis. Whether he's had his head in the sand for 16 years, I don't know, but having to face up to it is clearly a big issue.

And I think it remains, as Annie herself has more or less said, that what happens in the Siesta Motel in June 1967 points inevitably to what happens in the trailhead parking lot in May 1983.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.