getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)

[mlewisusc]

Thanks Jeff!

Too early in the morning to really think much out here, but maybe there's a simpler proposition I can throw out and see if I get a general agreement.  This may seem WAY too obvious, but knowing where folks stand can help.  Would most of you agree that, within the confines of the story, Jack is the ONLY man Ennis ever is "with" sexually?  If that's true, then do we believe his motel statement that he "never had no thoughs a doin it with another guy"?  How about after the motel scene?  Did he have those thoughts later in the relationship?  How about after Jack's death?

Ms. P's explanation of where the character Ennis came from (older cowboy in bar giving longing looks to young, pool-playing ranch hands) seems to be at odds with what on the surface I take from the story - as we said before on IMDB, to me, Story Ennis is a "one-man man" - for life!  This enhances the tragedy of the entire situation of course - and has spawned many a "happy ending for Ennis" fanfic.

Thoughts?

[Front-Ranger]

Hold that thought for a sec while I go back to the original topic. Talk about your offhand, tacked-on revelations. What about the statement in the story where it says "Ennis married Alma in November and had her pregnant by January." This is portrayed differently in the movie. There, the marriage ceremony is concluded by the preacher saying, "You may kiss the bride. And if you don't, I will." The effect is to show that the institution of marriage is a house of cards (not worth shoring up with a Constitutional Amendment, I have to add).

[Jeff Wrangler]

Thanks Jeff!

Too early in the morning to really think much out here, but maybe there's a simpler proposition I can throw out and see if I get a general agreement.  This may seem WAY too obvious, but knowing where folks stand can help.  Would most of you agree that, within the confines of the story, Jack is the ONLY man Ennis ever is "with" sexually?  If that's true, then do we believe his motel statement that he "never had no thoughs a doin it with another guy"?  How about after the motel scene?  Did he have those thoughts later in the relationship?  How about after Jack's death?

Ms. P's explanation of where the character Ennis came from (older cowboy in bar giving longing looks to young, pool-playing ranch hands) seems to be at odds with what on the surface I take from the story - as we said before on IMDB, to me, Story Ennis is a "one-man man" - for life!  This enhances the tragedy of the entire situation of course - and has spawned many a "happy ending for Ennis" fanfic.

Thoughts?

Personally I see no reason to change my own understanding that Story Ennis is, indeed, a one-man man (Movie Ennis, too, for that matter).

Maybe the "longing" Annie observed in the older cowboy in the bar wasn't actually desire for the boys shootin' pool. Maybe that longing was actually for a lost love. Perhaps watching those young cowboys brought back memories of a relationship in his own past, when he, himself, was as young as the boys he was watching when Annie noticed him. Perhaps there was an element of simply longing for his own lost youth in there, too.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Hold that thought for a sec while I go back to the original topic. Talk about your offhand, tacked-on revelations. What about the statement in the story where it says "Ennis married Alma in November and had her pregnant by January." This is portrayed differently in the movie. There, the marriage ceremony is concluded by the preacher saying, "You may kiss the bride. And if you don't, I will." The effect is to show that the institution of marriage is a house of cards (not worth shoring up with a Constitutional Amendment, I have to add).

Lee, I'm not quite sure I'm following you, here. Are you saying that the "offhand" comment in the story about Ennis getting Alma pregnant by January and the preacher's (in my opinion, dumb) joke in the movie are both ways of demonstrating that "the institution of marriage is a house of cards"? Personally I sure wouldn't dispute the point either way--at least, not as far as Ennis and Alma are concerned.

[Front-Ranger]

Yes, I guess I am. The story comment makes it clear that Ennis married Alma to prove his masculinity, and the preacher's joke could be taken several ways, but to me it is Ennis and the preacher vying to prove who's more masculine/heterosexual. The two terms are totally different in my book, but in Wyoming they were apparently one and the same.

[Jeff Wrangler]

The story comment makes it clear that Ennis married Alma to prove his masculinity.

Does it? Or does it just illustrate that this is what you do when you're a 19- or 20-year-old ranch kid in 1963 Wyoming (and maybe still today)? You find yourself a girlfriend, marry her young, and--'scuse the vulgarity--knock her up immediately? Was Ennis really that self-aware, or was he just fulfilling societal norms?

[nakymaton]

Does it? Or does it just illustrate that this is what you do when you're a 19- or 20-year-old ranch kid in 1963 Wyoming (and maybe still today)? You find yourself a girlfriend, marry her young, and--'scuse the vulgarity--knock her up immediately? Was Ennis really that self-aware, or was he just fulfilling societal norms?

Is there a large difference between "fulfilling societal norms" and "proving his masculinity," especially in Wyoming in 1963?

Maybe the "longing" Annie observed in the older cowboy in the bar wasn't actually desire for the boys shootin' pool. Maybe that longing was actually for a lost love. Perhaps watching those young cowboys brought back memories of a relationship in his own past, when he, himself, was as young as the boys he was watching when Annie noticed him. Perhaps there was an element of simply longing for his own lost youth in there, too.

That's how I see it, too.

[mlewisusc]

Sorry to keep jumping in and out today, gang.  What do we do with the fact that Story Ennis says to Jack he likes doin it with women?  Is that just Ennis's way of arguing to himself that he's not "queer"?  Or is it about making babies - e.g., he stopped sleeping with Alma when she wanted him to use protection (see also Ennis's desire to have a son - was this discussed above or in another thread?).  But then. like Alma thought, what Ennis liked to do didn't make too many babies.  As to the story, I believe that Ennis is actually sleeping with "the waitress" later in the story, and I don't believe Jack when he says he's having an affair with a ranch foreman's wife.  I realize, however, that my trust in Story Ennis could be misplaced, as noted by Ms. P herself when she writes that the sparks flew up "with their truths and lies . . . " plural of course.

So twice Ennis tells Jack that he (Ennis) sleeps with women, and once comments that he enjoys it.  Is he in fact sleeping with the waitress?  Does he actually enjoy it?  If he's lying, is he trying to prove his heterosexuality to himself or to Jack?  I imagine the answer would come back "both." 

[nakymaton]

I think Ennis sleeps with women to keep trying to prove to himself that he's not "queer." 

Actually, that's part of why I think he's NOT bi. I'm bi myself, and raised really homophobic and rural, and, you know... I think that if Ennis really liked doing it with women, he would have managed to live as if he were straight. (Really, being bi... it's not that difficult to pretend to be straight. Soul-destroying to try to bury part of oneself, yes... but easier than it would be if an opposite-sex relationship simply didn't work.)

[mlewisusc]

I think Ennis sleeps with women to keep trying to prove to himself that he's not "queer." 

Actually, that's part of why I think he's NOT bi. I'm bi myself, and raised really homophobic and rural, and, you know... I think that if Ennis really liked doing it with women, he would have managed to live as if he were straight. (Really, being bi... it's not that difficult to pretend to be straight. Soul-destroying to try to bury part of oneself, yes... but easier than it would be if an opposite-sex relationship simply didn't work.)

Except he fell in love with Jack.