getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)

[mlewisusc]

No offense intended to Mel, but I guess maybe I just have this gut feeling that "proving his masculinity" is too sophisticated a concept to apply to Ennis. I think he would more likely think just in terms of "doing the right thing," "doing the normal thing," "just doing what people just do"--that sort of thing. Of course, what he does might have the same practical effect as "proving his masculinity."

But, yeah, apparently he does spend a lot of time trying to convince himself that he ain't queer.

And I've never quite made up my mind how important is the detail that Ennis apparently preferred to "do it" with Alma the same way he, of necessity  , "did it" with Jack.

I have my story book at work (in my briefcase, actually) thank you very much . . . and this comment of Jeff's seemed like a good opportunity to ask for y'all's insight into another line of Ennis's from the motel - which is when he says to Jack, right before he relates the story of Earl & Rich, the following: "Jack, I don't want a be like them guys you see around sometimes."  This is immediately followed by the comment, "And I don't want a be dead."  Just after the Earl & Rich story, when Jack bitches about the time between their seeing one another, Ennis asks Jack this question: "Shit.  I been lookin at people on the street.  This happen a other people?  What the hell do they do?"

So what's my point/question?  What precisely does Ennis mean by saying he doesn't want to be like them guys?  I always read this as meaning he doesn't want to be/appear queer.  But then when he asks Jack if this happens to other people (and what is "this" to him?  Their sexual relationship?  Their LOVE, that we're not convinced he even knows about/is convinced about himself at this point?  If he's not really sophisticated, then is it just the plain electric nature of their relationship [Ms. P's descriptor intentional]?), it makes me doubt he was referring to guys who appear queer.  By his question to Jack, he's saying he's looking on the street for other folks engaged in a strange relationship, and not seeing it.  So his earlier comment means what?  That he doesn't want to be childless and unmarried, e.g. a "deviation" from the local social norm - but not rising to the level of "queer"? 

I hope I'm making some sense here - and I'm anxious to see what you all think.  Maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill (but isn't that just what we do here for fun?). 

An additional note - I am intrigued by FR's notion of the marriage being arranged.  Given the age and family circumstances we know about, itmakes a lot of sense to me.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I have my story book at work (in my briefcase, actually) thank you very much . . . and this comment of Jeff's seemed like a good opportunity to ask for y'all's insight into another line of Ennis's from the motel - which is when he says to Jack, right before he relates the story of Earl & Rich, the following: "Jack, I don't want a be like them guys you see around sometimes."  This is immediately followed by the comment, "And I don't want a be dead."  Just after the Earl & Rich story, when Jack bitches about the time between their seeing one another, Ennis asks Jack this question: "Shit.  I been lookin at people on the street.  This happen a other people?  What the hell do they do?"

So what's my point/question?  What precisely does Ennis mean by saying he doesn't want to be like them guys?  I always read this as meaning he doesn't want to be/appear queer.  But then when he asks Jack if this happens to other people (and what is "this" to him?  Their sexual relationship?  Their LOVE, that we're not convinced he even knows about/is convinced about himself at this point?  If he's not really sophisticated, then is it just the plain electric nature of their relationship [Ms. P's descriptor intentional]?), it makes me doubt he was referring to guys who appear queer.  By his question to Jack, he's saying he's looking on the street for other folks engaged in a strange relationship, and not seeing it.  So his earlier comment means what?  That he doesn't want to be childless and unmarried, e.g. a "deviation" from the local social norm - but not rising to the level of "queer"? 

It's very late here on the East Coast, so I'll only offer my opinion briefly that taking the paragraph as a whole, I've always understood Ennis to mean he doesn't want to be like Earl and Rich, men who are known or perceived to be "queer."

As for the brother and sister arranging or in any way pushing Ennis into marriage with Alma, I'm doubtful. I'm basing my doubts on personal life observation. Even in a small city in Pennsylvania more than a decade after Brokeback Mountain begins, kids in my class in high school--roughly Ennis's age even though he didn't graduate from high school--married soon after graduation. (One young lady had three kids--no twins--by our five-year reunion!) I also have distant cousins who married before they were out of their teens. I guess in the end I'm saying I see no need to speculate that the brother and sister had anything to do with the marriage, that this is just another example of Ennis operating according to rural/small town cultural norms.

[Penthesilea]

Sorry to keep jumping in and out today, gang.  What do we do with the fact that Story Ennis says to Jack he likes doin it with women?  Is that just Ennis's way of arguing to himself that he's not "queer"?  Or is it about making babies - e.g., he stopped sleeping with Alma when she wanted him to use protection (see also Ennis's desire to have a son - was this discussed above or in another thread?).  But then. like Alma thought, what Ennis liked to do didn't make too many babies.  As to the story, I believe that Ennis is actually sleeping with "the waitress" later in the story, and I don't believe Jack when he says he's having an affair with a ranch foreman's wife.  I realize, however, that my trust in Story Ennis could be misplaced, as noted by Ms. P herself when she writes that the sparks flew up "with their truths and lies . . . " plural of course.

So twice Ennis tells Jack that he (Ennis) sleeps with women, and once comments that he enjoys it.  Is he in fact sleeping with the waitress?  Does he actually enjoy it?  If he's lying, is he trying to prove his heterosexuality to himself or to Jack?  I imagine the answer would come back "both." 

Jumping back here with you...

Whether Ennis likes to sleep with women: nobody has quoted the whole sentence yet:
I like doin it with women, yeah, but Jesus H., ain't nothin like this.

I have an odd comparison: I like green salad, but hell, it's nothing like pizza. Means I don't have anything against green salad, I don't mind eating it and enjoy it to a certain extent. I'm okay with it. But I'm totally enthusiastic about pizza. I love pizza. If I had to choose, there's no question I'd take the pizza over the salad.
In the end, I'm indifferent about green salad. I could do without it, but like it enough to eat it (because it's healthy).

I think Ennis was indifferent about sleeping with women. Could have done without it, but liked it enough to do it, because a) it's what was expected from him and b) it's not so lonley as his right hand.

I think b) is an important point to Ennis. And I don't talk exclusively about the sexual aspect, but also about the social aspect of having sex with another person: being close to someone, feeling the other person, touching and being touched.
Being connected to another person - even if it is only for bodily aspects and even if it is not the right person - it's better than nothing anyway. Humans are social animals. Ennis was alone most of his life. He was able to stand it because he was less social and more of a loner than many people are. But this doesn't mean he had no social needs at all. Remember that pause, when Alma says "not so lonley like you were raised. You don't want it so lonley, do you?" (when she wants to move to Riverton). You can see her remark has struck a chord in him. Makes me sad every time.


About their truths and lies:

I don't think this sentence is (only) in regard to the afore conversation. I think it's meant more general: what they said to each other and more important what they didn't say. Their pretending. Pretending they weren't lovers.
In regard to the afore conversation Ennis could have been lying about putting the blocks to the waitress, or about her having problems he didn't want. I think he was the one with the problems (and maybe she didn't want them).

[mlewisusc]

Jumping back here with you...

Whether Ennis likes to sleep with women: nobody has quoted the whole sentence yet:
I like doin it with women, yeah, but Jesus H., ain't nothin like this.

I have an odd comparison: I like green salad, but hell, it's nothing like pizza. Means I don't have anything against green salad, I don't mind eating it and enjoy it to a certain extent. I'm okay with it. But I'm totally enthusiastic about pizza. I love pizza. If I had to choose, there's no question I'd take the pizza over the salad.
In the end, I'm indifferent about green salad. I could do without it, but like it enough to eat it (because it's healthy).

I think Ennis was indifferent about sleeping with women. Could have done without it, but liked it enough to do it, because a) it's what was expected from him and b) it's not so lonley as his right hand.

I think b) is an important point to Ennis. And I don't talk exclusively about the sexual aspect, but also about the social aspect of having sex with another person: being close to someone, feeling the other person, touching and being touched.
Being connected to another person - even if it is only for bodily aspects and even if it is not the right person - it's better than nothing anyway. Humans are social animals. Ennis was alone most of his life. He was able to stand it because he was less social and more of a loner than many people are. But this doesn't mean he had no social needs at all. Remember that pause, when Alma says "not so lonley like you were raised. You don't want it so lonley, do you?" (when she wants to move to Riverton). You can see her remark has struck a chord in him. Makes me sad every time.


About their truths and lies:

I don't think this sentence is (only) in regard to the afore conversation. I think it's meant more general: what they said to each other and more important what they didn't say. Their pretending. Pretending they weren't lovers.
In regard to the afore conversation Ennis could have been lying about putting the blocks to the waitress, or about her having problems he didn't want. I think he was the one with the problems (and maybe she didn't want them).

Yeah, I think the green salad/pizza analogy is a good one, P!  In light of the entire sentence, at least.  One nit to pick with the end of your argument, however: Alma's lines regarding loneliness were from the film.  What can we construct from the story that supports your theory?  I can start by saying that after Ennis's parents died, and his siblings raised him, we could speculate that he was constantly looking for interpersonal connections - a hunger for such connections - stronger, maybe, than many people in his region/social circle/culture because of the loss of his parents.  He may have hated his siblings and wanted to get away (remember we're talking story here not film - doing right by him was only mentioned in the film) but found once he did that deep inside he didn't want to be alone.  Thus the early decision to marry Alma (enhanced no doubt by the cultural imperatives of the location and the generation, as Jeff notes above) If Ennis really has a deep desire to avoid being alone, it may also explain why he made such a quick and deep connection with Jack, especially if he was by nature gay.  I also have argued a social angle on his connection with Jack, e.g. their high-time supper by the fire, and Ennis's feelings he'd never had such a good time - an interaction with Jack like he'd never had with Alma.  Why not?  He knew before he went up the mountain he was going to marry her when he got down.  Was it mostly because he was gay and just had a better social time with a man?  Was it because Alma was really no fun, or less fun than Jack?  Probably a bit of both - he was attracted to him, deep down, and also attracted to Jack socially, and they were both hungry for something that really went beyond sex, a connection neither of them had perhaps ever had in their entire lives . . . of course, much of the story's sadness comes from the tragic irony that when Ennis found the one person who could satisfy all his desires, his cultural imperatives, both in the community and in his own head, instilled by his father (back to the tire-iron wielding Inner Parent) stopped him from embracing the only connection left that could satisfy.  That's why I believe, from a story standpoint anyway, that Ennis could never re-connect after losing Jack.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I also have argued a social angle on his connection with Jack, e.g. their high-time supper by the fire, and Ennis's feelings he'd never had such a good time - an interaction with Jack like he'd never had with Alma.  Why not?  He knew before he went up the mountain he was going to marry her when he got down.  Was it mostly because he was gay and just had a better social time with a man?  Was it because Alma was really no fun, or less fun than Jack?  Probably a bit of both - he was attracted to him, deep down, and also attracted to Jack socially, and they were both hungry for something that really went beyond sex, a connection neither of them had perhaps ever had in their entire lives.

I think this "social angle" is actually very important to Ennis's falling in love with Jack, both in Story and in Film. Ennis is a lonely, isolated kid. And I think when you're gay, deeply closeted or simply lacking in self-awareness, and isolated either emotionally or "geographically" (Ennis was both), and you meet somebody who may be the first real pal you've had in your life, with whom you're comfortable and probably have more fun than you've ever had with anyone before in your life, it's shockingly easy to fall in love with that person.

Take it from one who's been there. It happened to me in college. 

[Penthesilea]

Yeah, I think the green salad/pizza analogy is a good one, P! 

Glad I was able to get my point across.

One nit to pick with the end of your argument, however: Alma's lines regarding loneliness were from the film. 

Oops. This totally slipped my attention. Okay, cancel my remark about Alma from the movie.
You, as well as Jeff, listed enough evidence from the story to confirm my thoughts: the high-time supper, paw the white out of the moon, the slow-motion, headlong, irreversible fall, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.

of course, much of the story's sadness comes from the tragic irony that when Ennis found the one person who could satisfy all his desires, his cultural imperatives, both in the community and in his own head, instilled by his father (back to the tire-iron wielding Inner Parent) stopped him from embracing the only connection left that could satisfy.

True. And so sad.
What makes me also even more sad is the painful lonliness that pours out of Annie's description of Ennis's life after Jack's death: the prologue and the very last paragraph of the story (from "Around that time Jack began to appear in his dreams..." on).

[mlewisusc]

Given the amount of fanfiction written of the variety where Ennis gets to find someone, and live "happily ever after" in a melancholy way, kind of a bittersweet trance of a life Jack created for Ennis by Jack's "sacrificial" death, it's no wonder to me that so many people feel put off by the story after they fall in love with the film.  From an optimistic perspective, the story sucks.  It's a ringing, bitter condemnation of either or both of (a) society's homophobia; and/or (b) Ennis's own lack of strength.  At the same time, it's a pretty amazing depiction of a deep, but flawed, love between two people, and a short, sharp, insightful analysis of human character.  The point is, Ennis is screwed at the end of the story, emotionally, and I don't see any redemption coming his way. 

The film, of course, gives us the hope that his experience with Jack will open him up to other loves in his life (e.g., attending Jr.'s wedding).  I see my own prejudices, founded in the story, making my way into the interpretation of the end of the film.  I certainly DON'T believe Film Ennis EVER finds another man, let alone a Jack replacement!  I think he only gets bittersweet solace from the resolve not to let work get in the way of his loves anymore.

Sorry, now I'm the one going on about the film.  Point is, the story is arguably unrelentingly bleak; the film gives some light to Ennis's tragedy.

BTW, I'm on my non-Mac machine here at work and I can't fiqure out how to spell check this thing!  If someone could let me know how. .

[nakymaton]

From an optimistic perspective, the story sucks.  It's a ringing, bitter condemnation of either or both of (a) society's homophobia; and/or (b) Ennis's own lack of strength.  At the same time, it's a pretty amazing depiction of a deep, but flawed, love between two people, and a short, sharp, insightful analysis of human character.  The point is, Ennis is screwed at the end of the story, emotionally, and I don't see any redemption coming his way.

Yep.

But I think there's a heck of a lot more insight into human nature in that bleak story than in reams of happily-ever-after (fanfic or original fiction, BBM or completely unrelated) fantasies.

(BTW, mlewis, you don't know this about me, but I can get really nasty when BBM fanfic comes up, so I try to avoid talking about it in this thread.)

[welliwont]

Yep.

(BTW, mlewis, you don't know this about me, but I can get really nasty when BBM fanfic comes up, so I try to avoid talking about it in this thread.)

Is that why you did not reply to my post way back there, Mel, because I am a reader of fanfic? 

[mlewisusc]

Yep.

But I think there's a heck of a lot more insight into human nature in that bleak story than in reams of happily-ever-after (fanfic or original fiction, BBM or completely unrelated) fantasies.

(BTW, mlewis, you don't know this about me, but I can get really nasty when BBM fanfic comes up, so I try to avoid talking about it in this thread.)

Agreed.  Tragedy is the highest form of drama (or storytelling) per Aristotle, right?  As a BRIEF comment on fanfic, I dipped my toe in back during the height of my BBM obsession because I JUST NEEDED MORE.  Excepting Jeff W's great short stuff, I pay no attention now - I'd rather re-read the story and see what new insight I can glean.

This made me glance up at the title of this thread - getting hit hard by offhand revelations.  I'm now looking for those revelations from the rest of you, rather than letting them hit me from the story.  I'm noticing several lines and comments in the story that I don't really "get" but various threads are opening them up to me. 

To return to the tragedy/insight theme, would you then say that the BBM story is a "cautionary" tale or just an exposition of a wrenching situation?  By cautionary, I guess I mean, "Don't act like Ennis - embrace your true love" or "Don't act like Mr. Del Mar with your kids."