Author Topic: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)  (Read 150712 times)

Offline nakymaton

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #240 on: December 02, 2006, 12:27:43 pm »
Is that why you did not reply to my post way back there, Mel, because I am a reader of fanfic?  ???

No, I didn't reply because work and RL have been absolute hell this week, and I only managed to comment on one thing that caught my attention before the thread moved on and I forgot all about the other things that were mentioned.

(No, Jane, you're not on my long ignore list.)

(And the reason I'm not replying to mlewis right now is because my 3-year-old is singing a song about "can I hit the door," and I should be dealing with him.)
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injest

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #241 on: December 02, 2006, 12:43:58 pm »
Given the amount of fanfiction written of the variety where Ennis gets to find someone, and live "happily ever after" in a melancholy way, kind of a bittersweet trance of a life Jack created for Ennis by Jack's "sacrificial" death, it's no wonder to me that so many people feel put off by the story after they fall in love with the film.  From an optimistic perspective, the story sucks.  It's a ringing, bitter condemnation of either or both of (a) society's homophobia; and/or (b) Ennis's own lack of strength.  At the same time, it's a pretty amazing depiction of a deep, but flawed, love between two people, and a short, sharp, insightful analysis of human character.  The point is, Ennis is screwed at the end of the story, emotionally, and I don't see any redemption coming his way. 

The film, of course, gives us the hope that his experience with Jack will open him up to other loves in his life (e.g., attending Jr.'s wedding).  I see my own prejudices, founded in the story, making my way into the interpretation of the end of the film.  I certainly DON'T believe Film Ennis EVER finds another man, let alone a Jack replacement!  I think he only gets bittersweet solace from the resolve not to let work get in the way of his loves anymore.

Sorry, now I'm the one going on about the film.  Point is, the story is arguably unrelentingly bleak; the film gives some light to Ennis's tragedy.

BTW, I'm on my non-Mac machine here at work and I can't fiqure out how to spell check this thing!  If someone could let me know how. .

ok going agin the grain here, guys. But yes the story is tragic and Ennis is a sad lonely being (by the standards we are applying from our own life) but Ennis was a ol country boy. In all the years he lived, he learned to cope, that was his life. Was it perfect? no, but he isn't as sad a figure to me. I know men like that...and half of them live that way because they know nothing else and WANT nothing else. It is hard for most of us to comprehend that. That there are people who are not worried about material goods or comfort. That live in the moment. I think Ennis was one of those people.

He had Jack. and never lost him, really. To love another person like that...how many of us would give anything to have had that in their life?

injest

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #242 on: December 02, 2006, 12:47:58 pm »
not that I don't think the story is tragic and horribly sad! I do...but I just don't have that feeling that Ennis was the pitiful loser some people see him as...

ok that doesn't sound right either! LOL


injest

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #243 on: December 02, 2006, 01:07:56 pm »
see what happens when you get into threads in the middle? LOL


Jumping back here with you...

Whether Ennis likes to sleep with women: nobody has quoted the whole sentence yet:
I like doin it with women, yeah, but Jesus H., ain't nothin like this.

I have an odd comparison: I like green salad, but hell, it's nothing like pizza. Means I don't have anything against green salad, I don't mind eating it and enjoy it to a certain extent. I'm okay with it. But I'm totally enthusiastic about pizza. I love pizza. If I had to choose, there's no question I'd take the pizza over the salad.
In the end, I'm indifferent about green salad. I could do without it, but like it enough to eat it (because it's healthy).

I think Ennis was indifferent about sleeping with women. Could have done without it, but liked it enough to do it, because a) it's what was expected from him and b) it's not so lonley as his right hand.

I think b) is an important point to Ennis. And I don't talk exclusively about the sexual aspect, but also about the social aspect of having sex with another person: being close to someone, feeling the other person, touching and being touched. Being connected to another person - even if it is only for bodily aspects and even if it is not the right person - it's better than nothing anyway. Humans are social animals. Ennis was alone most of his life. He was able to stand it because he was less social and more of a loner than many people are. But this doesn't mean he had no social needs at all. Remember that pause, when Alma says "not so lonley like you were raised. You don't want it so lonley, do you?" (when she wants to move to Riverton). You can see her remark has struck a chord in him. Makes me sad every time.


About their truths and lies:

I don't think this sentence is (only) in regard to the afore conversation. I think it's meant more general: what they said to each other and more important what they didn't say. Their pretending. Pretending they weren't lovers.
In regard to the afore conversation Ennis could have been lying about putting the blocks to the waitress, or about her having problems he didn't want. I think he was the one with the problems (and maybe she didn't want them).


well, my view of that is just like a straight man will have sex with a gay man...gay men will have sex with straight women...

men are different from women and tend (generalizing here, guys) to divorce sex from feelings. So I don't see a problem, a discrepancy, with him having sex with Cassie or Alma...they offered...he was a man..to him it was sex...had nothing to do with feelings.

and as far as the part about loneliness (from the film) wanting something different for your kids is a far cry from wanting it for yourself right now. My husband wants DESPERATELY for my son to go to college...doesn't want to go himself...

we all live with regrets and wishs...Ennis was a realist. He knew the circumstances of his lfe and accepted them (doesn't mean he was a HAPPY or even contented....just accepted)

Offline serious crayons

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #244 on: December 02, 2006, 01:12:32 pm »
he isn't as sad a figure to me. I know men like that...and half of them live that way because they know nothing else and WANT nothing else. It is hard for most of us to comprehend that. That there are people who are not worried about material goods or comfort. That live in the moment. I think Ennis was one of those people.

Jess, maybe I'm misunderstanding your point. But to the extent I think Ennis is a sad figure, it has nothing to do with him being poor or having a spartan lifestyle. In fact, one of many things I love about BBM is that we AREN'T asked to feel sorry for people because they're uneducated or poor. In most movies, characters' economic status is central to our understanding of them, and if a character starts out poor, their path to achieving economic success constitutes at least part of the plot. Wealth = happy ending. BBM is refreshing because it DOESN'T do that.

No, I think Ennis is a sad figure because his own internal conflicts keep him from grabbing his one chance at happiness. Even when Jack is alive, Ennis can't fully enjoy the relationship because of his guilt and shame, and in the end he's left alone, grieving, knowing he blew it.

Quote
He had Jack. and never lost him, really. To love another person like that...how many of us would give anything to have had that in their life?

Yes. But it's kind of a glass half full/half empty situation, right? Of course, he was lucky to have what he did with Jack (half full). But they didn't get to live happily ever after together (half empty).

injest

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #245 on: December 02, 2006, 01:20:55 pm »
Sorry to keep jumping in and out today, gang.  What do we do with the fact that Story Ennis says to Jack he likes doin it with women?  Is that just Ennis's way of arguing to himself that he's not "queer"?  Or is it about making babies - e.g., he stopped sleeping with Alma when she wanted him to use protection (see also Ennis's desire to have a son - was this discussed above or in another thread?).  But then. like Alma thought, what Ennis liked to do didn't make too many babies.  As to the story, I believe that Ennis is actually sleeping with "the waitress" later in the story, and I don't believe Jack when he says he's having an affair with a ranch foreman's wife.  I realize, however, that my trust in Story Ennis could be misplaced, as noted by Ms. P herself when she writes that the sparks flew up "with their truths and lies . . . " plural of course.

So twice Ennis tells Jack that he (Ennis) sleeps with women, and once comments that he enjoys it.  Is he in fact sleeping with the waitress?  Does he actually enjoy it?  If he's lying, is he trying to prove his heterosexuality to himself or to Jack?  I imagine the answer would come back "both." 

ok we don't know that they stopped having sex totally after that one scene...(from the movie)...and I know if I told my husband in the middle of proceedings to slap on a condom after x number of years?? He would be very very unhappy...the time for THAT discussion was NOT at that moment. Alma was looking for an excuse to NOT have sex...(anyone remember when the pill came out? Why wasn't Alma on it if she was so concerned?)

and as far as 'enjoying sex' with women....do straight men enjoy having oral sex from gay men? sex is sex...yes, I would say he enjoyed it...

at the point in the story where they are talking about the waitress and the foreman's wife I think they had so much unspoken baggage between them that they go thru a ritual of trying to keep things going smoothly...by this time they had it down pat. only when Jack is pushed too far by Ennis telling him that he will not meet him in August does the standard script get thrown out and truth is told....

Offline mlewisusc

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #246 on: December 02, 2006, 05:36:19 pm »
OK, I logged on to leave a brief thought on another subject, and here's all these posts that need thinking!

Anyway, the USC-UCLA game is about to start, and I just want to drop off this thought; I'll come back ASAP.

Here's the thought.  When Story Ennis and Jack split up right after Brokeback, the last line of the paragraph regarding Ennis having the dry heaves is as follows: " He felt about as bad as he ever had and it took a long time for the feeling to wear off." (emphasis mine).

This JUST hit me, hard (offhand revelations): Ennis lost his parents when he was between 11 years and 14 years old or so, right?  And he must have felt pretty damn bad about that!  But here, after Ms. P sets us up knowing he's an orphan and putting in our minds how bad losing both parents at such an age must feel, she hits us with the fact that his separation from Jack right after Brokeback felt worse!  I think that's pretty incredible.
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Offline nakymaton

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #247 on: December 02, 2006, 05:38:51 pm »
Well here I will deposit my two cents:  I have bolded part of your quote there Mel, that is the part I am addressing....  To say that is does not matter whether they kissed on the mountain or not during their summer together, I can't agree with that.  I think it is the kissing that expresses the love.  without the kissing, the unspoken love that Jack has for Ennis is not expressed.   :o

I'm not saying that story Jack and Ennis did kiss that summer, I am just saying that whether they did or not does matter very much

You're right, of course. I said that it didn't matter for completely irrational reasons of my own. The first time I tried to leave this forum, back in June or July, I had come to the realization that the second tent scene not only was at odds with my interpretation of the story, but that my feelings about it had made me completely unable to watch or enjoy the movie. Convincing myself that it didn't matter was part of my attempt to make the movie something that I could watch and enjoy again.

But, you know, it didn't work.

To heck with it, anyway.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #248 on: December 02, 2006, 11:53:43 pm »
From an optimistic perspective, the story sucks.  It's a ringing, bitter condemnation of either or both of (a) society's homophobia; 

Well, Annie has said--somewhere--that the story is about rural homophobia.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #249 on: December 02, 2006, 11:58:20 pm »
ok we don't know that they stopped having sex totally after that one scene...(from the movie)...and I know if I told my husband in the middle of proceedings to slap on a condom after x number of years?? He would be very very unhappy...the time for THAT discussion was NOT at that moment. Alma was looking for an excuse to NOT have sex...(anyone remember when the pill came out? Why wasn't Alma on it if she was so concerned?)

I've wondered about that, too. The pill came out in the early 1960s. My guess would be they simply couldn't afford it.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.