getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)

[nakymaton]

because of the reference to Jack's line of dialogue, I took that as specifically referring to the scene in the back seat of the convertible and wrote my post accordingly. That's not a lukewarm response that we see there. Not from that grin on Jack's face. He's a 22-year-old boy who's about to get his rocks off. ... 

Heh. Here's where Katherine's and my experience with straight men comes into the conversation, I suspect. Straight 22-year-old boys about to get their rocks off tend to be a bit more, ummmm, aggressive and enthusiastic. Particularly when confronted with breasts.

Ummm, in my experience, at least.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Heh. Here's where Katherine's and my experience with straight men comes into the conversation, I suspect. Straight 22-year-old boys about to get their rocks off tend to be a bit more, ummmm, aggressive and enthusiastic. Particularly when confronted with breasts.

Ummm, in my experience, at least.

No doubt. ... 

But don't forget, it's 1966. Back then, "nice girls" were not supposed to behave the way Lureen is behaving in that convertible. It just looks to me like Jack is a little surprised by her aggressiveness, but that grin on his face is universal: "Oh, boy, I'm gettin' laid!" 

[dly64]

Heh. Here's where Katherine's and my experience with straight men comes into the conversation, I suspect. Straight 22-year-old boys about to get their rocks off tend to be a bit more, ummmm, aggressive and enthusiastic. Particularly when confronted with breasts.

Ummm, in my experience, at least.

There's truth to that ... except I can't say that I have had sex with a guy a few hours after I met him, either. So ... I guess anything's possible!  

There’s a lot being said about Jack’s lying. I guess I just don’t see it that way. It’s more like omitting information. I am one of those few people who believe that Jack is telling his own truth when he says “me neither.” I am not convinced that he is 100% comfortable with his own sexuality at the time of TS1. Yes, he wanted it … no doubt about that. However, I think he was conflicted about what he felt and wanted as compared to what was expected of him. I think this is evident when he meets Lureen. Certainly he is not as passionate for her as he is for Ennis. But he is attracted to her and she represents a socially acceptable relationship. Clearly, Jack becomes more comfortable with his own sexuality as time goes on. But the purpose for Jack’s lies and omissions are the same …. They are a way to shield Ennis from the truth … a way to protect Ennis. Jack’s indiscretions have very little to do with Ennis. So why tell Ennis something that would just hurt him?

[moremojo]

It just looks to me like Jack is a little surprised by her aggressiveness, but that grin on his face is universal: "Oh, boy, I'm gettin' laid!" 

And quite possibly losing his virginity from a heterosexual perspective. A have a friend who has problems with Jack's line in this scene, thinking, as some others here have concurred, that it sounds awkward (especially to her heterosexual woman's ears). I suspect that is precisely the point--Jack is a homosexual going through the motions with someone who doesn't really stir his loins. He's saying something without having his heart in it.

[Jeff Wrangler]

And quite possibly losing his virginity from a heterosexual perspective.

That's probably the key right here.

He's saying something without having his heart in it.

See, this is what I'm not seeing, not from what I remember of the look on his face. I remember surprise at the aggressiveness of this "nice girl from a good family," but not displeasure at the direction she's heading. 

Edit: Just an additional thought: If his heart's not in it, what the hell is doing getting into that car with her in the first place? 

[moremojo]

Edit: Just an additional thought: If his heart's not in it, what the hell is doing getting into that car with her in the first place? 

I see Jack seeking refuge and safety in a socially licit relationship. Previously, we saw him hitting on and getting rebuffed by Jimbo; a tense scene, where Jack might have been in very real danger. One might say that he's trying on heterosexuality for size, just as you mentioned many gay men historically have done. Lureen is a beautiful woman, and Jack would surely recognize that and appreciate it in his way, and the knowledge that she comes from money could be further inducement for him to court her. Furthermore, as far he knows, he may never see Ennis again--might be time for a fresh start, and if he can get it up for a woman (to put it crudely), perhaps all the better. Problem is, he's gay and in love with a man.

[nakymaton]

But don't forget, it's 1966. Back then, "nice girls" were not supposed to behave the way Lureen is behaving in that convertible.

Heh. You know, I haven't watched BBM with my mother, and one reason is because I think she would not approve of Lureen's behavior in that back seat. In fact, I think she would possibly be more critical of Lureen than of any other character in the movie. (Hard to say, though. I still don't talk to my mother about sex.)

I'll be honest -- I've heard plenty of guys explain just how horny 22-year-old men are, but since I've never been one, I don't know for myself. So I don't know what it feels like to have a, ummm, gun cocked and wanting to go off for a long time. I guess I can believe that Jack might be looking forward to the prospect of an orgasm. And Jack certainly looks really lonely in the bar scene. So maybe between loneliness and horniness Jack isn't lying.

Edit: Just an additional thought: If his heart's not in it, what the hell is doing getting into that car with her in the first place?

Well, in an ideal world, he wouldn't have gotten into that car with her, would he?

I can sympathize with Jack, with the loneliness and horniness, and with living in a hostile society. But getting into that car was a mistake.

Diane: The story lie that gets to me most isn't in the movie. It's the moment in the motel when Ennis asks Jack if he has had sex with other guys, and Jack lies and says he hasn't. That's not just withholding information. Ennis was trying to sort out his feelings about his sexuality and about Jack, and even reveals that he thought about Jack while masturbating. (Sorry, TJ if you're out there, that's how I read the scene.) And then Jack lies. And lying in the face of that kind of personal revelation... well, that's harder to forgive than omissions are, at least for me.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I see Jack seeking refuge and safety in a socially licit relationship. Previously, we saw him hitting on and getting rebuffed by Jimbo; a tense scene, where Jack might have been in very real danger. One might say that he's trying on heterosexuality for size, just as you mentioned many gay men historically have done. Lureen is a beautiful woman, and Jack would surely recognize that and appreciate it in his way, and the knowledge that she comes from money could be further inducement for him to court her. Furthermore, as far he knows, he may never see Ennis again--might be time for a fresh start, and if he can get it up for a woman (to put it crudely), perhaps all the better. Problem is, he's gay and in love with a man.

Nothing at all here that I would disagree with, Scott. I was just narrowly focusing on the back seat of that convertible--and what I remember of my own hormones at age 22. 

[serious crayons]

Well, I don't think we even need to drag Mel's and my back-seat adventures with 22-year-old men, however educational  , into the discussion to understand Jack's motivations. Yes, I'm sure he's pleased enough about the prospect of sex. We know that in a pinch, horny young men can get enthusiastic about all sorts of sex partners, sometimes even non-human or inanimate ones. So I wouldn't go so far as to say he's reluctantly going through the motions just to be polite or anything.

But I see his grin as more this  than  . And it's really not  . And especially not  .

I think passion is what we see when he's with Ennis, and the expression doesn't look the same. The "fast or slow" line sounds a bit scripted and disingenuous to me, unlike "sorry, s'alright, c'mere." And when she whips off her bra, he actually looks slightly taken aback. 

[Jeff Wrangler]

And when she whips off her bra, he actually looks slightly taken aback. 

Maybe he just wasn't expecting her to go that far, let alone "all the way." I sure wasn't expecting that bra-removal, and I was just in the audience!

Actually, puritan that I am  , I do think that bra removal is kind of gratuitous. But, we see Michelle's breasts so I guess we have to see Anne's!