Author Topic: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)  (Read 150739 times)

Offline dly64

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #60 on: September 11, 2006, 03:09:12 pm »
Diane: The story lie that gets to me most isn't in the movie. It's the moment in the motel when Ennis asks Jack if he has had sex with other guys, and Jack lies and says he hasn't. That's not just withholding information. Ennis was trying to sort out his feelings about his sexuality and about Jack, and even reveals that he thought about Jack while masturbating. (Sorry, TJ if you're out there, that's how I read the scene.) And then Jack lies. And lying in the face of that kind of personal revelation... well, that's harder to forgive than omissions are, at least for me.

I understand your POV in regards to that lie. The question is, did Ennis really want to know? And if Jack would have told him the truth, what would have been the point? Ennis admitted that he had not been with other men. In essence, Ennis remained “loyal” to Jack (since both Jack and Ennis always seemed cool about the fact that each one slept with women). Although Jack was not physically loyal to Jack, he was emotionally. So why would Jack tell Ennis that he had been having sex with other men (even if the other men wouldn’t have been as “good” as Ennis)?  That would have only hurt Ennis, and Jack knew that.

In the film, there is a scene where Ennis is asking Jack if Lureen suspects that Jack sleeps with men (to paraphrase it). Jack says no. But then Ennis asks Jack if he ever gets the feeling that people “know.” The reality is that Jack did experience that feeling … when he was trying to pick up Jimbo. This was a time where Ennis was being vulnerable and Jack could have answered honestly, but he chose not to. Instead, Jack suggested Ennis move to Texas. IMO, Jack is seeing his own actions as protecting Ennis from hurt and pain. He is not lying to save his own skin.
Diane

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #61 on: September 11, 2006, 03:40:34 pm »
we see Michelle's breasts so I guess we have to see Anne's!  ::)

Tit for tat, hunh?

I think the bra-removal is a way of showing Lureen as an aggressive, go-getter type, to help explain why Jack married her. Just being pretty and rich might not be enough to rope Jack in, and if Jack were the pursuer he might come off as a golddigger. Cassie is shown to be a go-getter herself, partly for the same reason -- Ennis probably wouldn't go after a woman on his own. His engagement to Alma is more a product of his pre-awakening.

As for Jack's lie about other men, I'm inclined to let him off the hook for the same reason Diane does -- the confession would have hurt Ennis. But it would be nice if he were upfront about his sexuality. In the film scene Diane mentions about Ennis getting the feeling that people know, I get annoyed with Jack for changing the subject rather than talking honestly about his sexuality, which might help Ennis understand things better and maybe even feel a tiny bit more secure.

BTW, speaking of good analyses of the story, here's a thread from imdb that is fascinating. It was posted on the CT board, but for anyone who didn't see it:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/flat/53351567?d=53452424#53452424

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #62 on: September 11, 2006, 03:53:58 pm »
Tit for tat, hunh?

More like tit for tit.  ;D

(Sorry, that was too obvious to pass by.)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #63 on: September 11, 2006, 03:55:36 pm »
More like tit for tit.  ;D

(Sorry, that was too obvious to pass by.)

Don't be sorry! Mine was a joke in the first place -- you just improved on it.

 :laugh:

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #64 on: September 11, 2006, 04:27:47 pm »
Don't be sorry! Mine was a joke in the first place -- you just improved on it.

 :laugh:

Ah, but I couldn't have done it if you hadn't fed me the line!  :laugh:
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #65 on: September 11, 2006, 04:32:08 pm »
Ah, but I couldn't have done it if you hadn't fed me the line!  :laugh:

Next stop for us: The Catskills!  :laugh:

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #66 on: September 11, 2006, 05:48:16 pm »
Next stop for us: The Catskills!  :laugh:

We should go on the stage. And there's one leaving in ten minutes. ...  :laugh:
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline nakymaton

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #67 on: September 11, 2006, 11:39:36 pm »
    In the film, there is a scene where Ennis is asking Jack if Lureen suspects that Jack sleeps with men (to paraphrase it). Jack says no. But then Ennis asks Jack if he ever gets the feeling that people “know.” The reality is that Jack did experience that feeling … when he was trying to pick up Jimbo. This was a time where Ennis was being vulnerable and Jack could have answered honestly, but he chose not to. Instead, Jack suggested Ennis move to Texas. IMO, Jack is seeing his own actions as protecting Ennis from hurt and pain. He is not lying to save his own skin.

    Oh, wow. I hadn't connected that scene in the movie with the discussion in the motel in the book, but you're right, some of the feeling of the conversation is moved there.

    I see what you and Katherine mean about Jack's lies protecting Ennis. I mean... I can't imagine either the book or movie scenes going another way. And when the truth comes out, during the lake confrontation, it isn't very pleasant (and doesn't help things at all).

    All the same, I think the way the motel scene is described in the story sets the readers up to be critical of Jack:

    "...You do it with other guys? Jack?"

    "Shit no," said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own. "You know that. Old Brokeback got us good and it sure ain't over."


    The way the comment about Jack's other experiences is inserted there, in the middle of Jack's statement, really makes the lie stand out.

    And the movie, on the other hand, sets the audience up to be sympathetic towards Jack, I think. I started thinking back to how the scenes with Ennis and Jack alternate around the times when Jack gets involved with other people:

    • Before Jack tries to pick up Jimbo, we've seen 1) Ennis and Alma sledding; 2) Ennis and pregnant Alma at the drive-in; 3) Jack back in Signal looking for Ennis, but not finding him; 4) Ennis working on the highway crew; and 5) Ennis and Alma in bed. The first couple scenes are the happiest ones between Ennis and Alma, and for a few moments I could almost be convinced that somehow, Ennis would make himself fit back into that life he expected to live. (The scene with Ennis and Alma in bed, though, is the first obvious warning that Ennis and Alma's sex life, at least, isn't what either one particularly wants. Yeah, I know about the things people have found that suggest that Ennis is thinking about Jack in all the earlier scenes, too, but they are pretty subtle hints.)

      So Ennis seems to be settled in with Alma, and Jack's got to already feel a bit rejected when Ennis didn't show up for a second summer together. I can't really blame him for trying to move on.

    • Before Randall hits on Jack, the previous scene shows Cassie hitting on Ennis. So again, we see Ennis with another relationship before we see Jack with one. (And Jack doesn't make the first move -- in fact, Jack just looks so sad when Randall mentions fishing and whiskey.)

    • And the trip to Mexico after the post-divorce scene... I don't think I even need to talk about that one.

    I don't know about the Jack/Lureen scene, which comes right after the fireworks scene. That one doesn't fit the pattern quite so much -- it doesn't feel so much like we've been set up to feel sorry for Jack. Though Lureen comes on so strong and so fast that maybe it doesn't need to fit the pattern.[/list]
    « Last Edit: September 11, 2006, 11:43:35 pm by nakymaton »
    Watch out. That poster has a low startle point.

    Offline serious crayons

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    Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
    « Reply #68 on: September 12, 2006, 01:35:01 am »
    Before Jack tries to pick up Jimbo, we've seen 1) Ennis and Alma sledding;

    Interesting points, Mel! I wonder if even switching the order of the two scenes above would have made a subtle difference, made Jack's hitting on Jimbo seem slightly like a betrayal and Ennis more like the innocently wronged party. Whereas, in the order they are, Ennis seems happily oblivious and Jack just lonely and desperate.

    Offline fernly

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    Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
    « Reply #69 on: September 12, 2006, 02:29:31 am »
      First, may I just add my heartfelt Wow! for your OP, Mel, and for all the other posts in this thread that you and others have made.

    Quote
    I don't know about the Jack/Lureen scene, which comes right after the fireworks scene. That one doesn't fit the pattern quite so much -- it doesn't feel so much like we've been set up to feel sorry for Jack. Though Lureen comes on so strong and so fast that maybe it doesn't need to fit the pattern.[/list]

    For this pairing of scenes, maybe the fireworks scene is partly a reminder of the last time Ennis hit someone? I hadn't thought before that this would be one of the times that Ennnis was remembering Jack, but if this was the first occasion when he'd lost control since slugging Jack on that hillside, then maybe...
    And for us, it reminds us that Ennis hurt Jack in more ways than one that last day, helping to emphasize why Jack liked the direction Lureen was going...toward him, instead of pushing away.
    on the mountain flying in the euphoric, bitter air