Author Topic: Jack's adolescence is a blank page...  (Read 14283 times)

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Jack's adolescence is a blank page...
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2006, 07:20:57 pm »
You truly have amazing insight into Jack, Daniel! Thanks for this...
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Offline Sashca1007

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Re: Jack's adolescence is a blank page...
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2006, 01:59:39 am »
Daniel, do you have to leave the Performance Thread as JACK?    :'(

And....and.... if you turn over your role as YOUNG JACK so that someone else can play OLD JACK...   does that mean I have to turn over my role as YOUNG JACK'S PANTS so someone else can play OLD JACK'S PANTS???   :-\ 
 && >> W-A-A-HH!!!  snif-f.....snurrf..<<  :'( &&

"From the vibration of the floorboard on which they both stood Ennis could feel how hard Jack was shaking."

Offline JCinNYC2006

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Re: Jack's adolescence is a blank page...
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2006, 11:17:01 am »
Wow, so many fascinating ideas about what influenced Jack's upbringing and his becoming the person he is.  I have some thoughts about it, too.  Bear in mind, I'm a social worker but not a psychologist, so these are just my thoughts, not an assessment or anything.

A lot of what folks have said about difference and similarity rings true for me.  When I think of Jack's development, I think about how both his parents influenced him, including the dynamic between Ma and Pa Twist.  In some ways, like most of us, Jack is partly like his father and partly like his mother, in ways that are both wanted and unwanted.  And like many of us, he recreates aspects of their lives that are familiar, even if unwelcome.

In the scene in the movie with his parents, his mother is the character that's most drawn from nowhere, since Proulx doesn't write about her that I can recall.  To me, Jack's mother seems like a woman who is beaten down by life and most likely her husband.  She is dignified, kind, compassionate, despite the likelihood of having lived a tough life with a hard, probably uncaring man, but she is not what she once was.  So it makes me think that during his early life, Jack was probably exposed to a more outgoing, caring woman who he also brought low by a tyrannical father.

Jack's father we know a little bit more about, in particular how unwilling he was to share of himself with Jack.  This selfishness was for his father probably a sense of competetiveness, although it didn't deter Jack from wanting to emulate his dad, i.e. the rodeo work.  The urination scene strikes me of someone with an abusive, sadistic side, but to me, not necessarily sexual in nature.  It was influential to Jack in a number of ways:  it was a powerful memory of his father's penis, it highlighted a significant difference between them (probably one of many), and to a degree it may have been more sexual for Jack if as a child he experienced same sex attraction. 

So what I see is what I imagine to be the dynamics between Ma and Pa Twist reenacted between Jack and Ennis.  Jack is trying to live life, be happy, and love someone, despite the danger and tabboo of being with a man.  His love interest is a man who is, to a degree, emotionally unavailable, highly disapproving, and has great difficulty giving of himself to Jack.  I imagine that Jack's sense of optimism and hopefullness is an effort, probably not a conscious one, of trying not to fall into becoming like his parents.  Sadly, because Ennis is so unable or unwilling to bend, to take a chance, this makes Jack more like his parents, although not the best of them: bitter (pa), despairing, beaten down but struggling to stay hopeful (ma).

Of course, this could all be projection on my part.  When I think about my relationships, I sometimes think about how they're like my parents relationships and how they're different.  I say to myself I want to have one that's different, or at least doesn't emulate some of the worst parts.  Maybe that's why fan fiction seems to popular right now, this wish that things didn't turn out the way they did, that in some way Jack lived, Ennis changed and they lived happily after ever.  Hmmmmm.


But on another note, I really hope that you don't leave the thread Daniel, you've always been so good in that role!

Juan
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Offline Daniel

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Re: Jack's adolescence is a blank page...
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2006, 11:20:53 am »
No one else is stepping up to the plate, so looks like y'all are stuck with me.  Have no idea where we're goin' on the performance, got no reins on this one.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Jack's adolescence is a blank page...
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2006, 01:20:17 pm »
Excellent analysis, Juan!  :D

Offline JCinNYC2006

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Re: Jack's adolescence is a blank page...
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2006, 07:41:23 pm »
Well thanks Katherine.  And that's good news Daniel!

Juan
What is essential, is invisible to the eye....

Offline Shuggy

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Re: Jack's adolescence is a blank page...
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2006, 04:59:52 pm »
That's a pretty common rationale. Maybe Annie Proulx thought of that, and realized it would be a good way of introducing a distinction between father and son. (Where she got the abusive peeing from, though, I can't imagine.)
If John Twist was away at the war, they could have circumcised Jack without even asking. (A 1941 article says "Some doctors make a practice of routine circumcision unless specific objection is raised by the parents, while others first consult the parents in order to discover their wishes.") It peaked in frequency in the 1950s.
Or they could have leant on Mrs Twist, and not told her what it entailed. NOT FOR THE SQUEAMISH!
Another possibility is that John Twist was so sadistic so early that he had it done IN ORDER to hurt and deprive Jack, but that's far-fetched (except when you consider the peeing).
As for looking like his father...
« Last Edit: September 27, 2006, 05:03:46 pm by Shuggy »

Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: Jack's adolescence is a blank page...
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2006, 05:03:43 pm »
If John Twist was away at the war, they could have circumcised Jack without even asking. (A 1941 article says "Some doctors make a practice of routine circumcision unless specific objection is raised by the parents, while others first consult the parents in order to discover their wishes.") Or they could have leant on Mrs Twist, and not told her what it entailed. NOT FOR THE SQUEAMISH!
Another possibility is that John Twist was so sadistic so early that he had it done IN ORDER to hurt and deprive Jack, but that's far-fetched (except when you consider the peeing).
As for looking like his father...
Most American born white males are circumcised especially within the time frame of the story.   I understand the pratice is less routine in todays hospitals.
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline Meryl

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Re: Jack's adolescence is a blank page...
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2006, 12:48:03 pm »
bump
Ich bin ein Brokie...

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Jack's adolescence is a blank page...
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2008, 12:42:04 pm »
I don't know how I missed this awesome thread the first time around (I happened to notice a Guest looking at this thread via the "who's online" feature... so that's how come me end up here :) ).

Anyway, back to the topic of Jack's teenage/adolescent years... Yes, I think the information we do have (from the story) about his childhood and the abuse he suffered is probably important to imagining how his adolescence might have gone.  How far into Jack's teenage years do we imagine the physical abuse continued?

It's certainly true that we don't have the same sense of Jack's abusive childhood through the film.  We know that Jack's bitter about his father based on how he talks about him and the lack of bull riding lessons and his early remark that there's no way to please his old man.  But, I'd say we have less to go on about Jack's youth in the film vs. the story.  The visual clues from his bedroom seem a litte odd to me in regards to the question of his adolescence, because his Lightning Flat bedroom really looks like a small child's room more than a teenage room.

However, the one major issue from the film that does not appear to have been discussed yet in this thread is his question early on to Ennis about whether or not Ennis's parents "ran him off".  He asks this as if this is a common occurance/ would not be a shocking occurance.  I mean it's very telling that he immediately jumped to that question when trying to figure out Ennis's background.  So, this seems to imply that Jack was run off.  Or is very familiar with that kind of experience.  It's interesting to speculate exactly what that means or when that might have happened to Jack.  Was the fact that Jack was up on Brokeback one summer earlier, in '62, a direct result of his being run off?  Why do we suppose Jack was run off (and was Ma Twist completely powerless in that scenario... since she doesn't seem like the type of parent to kick out her child)? 

In a certain sense the idea that Jack was kicked out seems to imply that he understands abandonment too, although of course Ennis's circumstance seems more severe.

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