Author Topic: Free Fall - Freier Fall  (Read 620626 times)

Offline Tiina

  • Jr. Ranch Hand
  • **
  • Posts: 12
Re: Free Fall - Freier Fall
« Reply #1270 on: January 25, 2016, 01:15:46 pm »
Just watched the movie from beginning to the end. Haven't done that for a while. I have watched a scene from here and there many times, but the whole movie.. not for some time.

I noticed a couple of things I haven't noticed before:

#1 Kay's bedroom is actually his living room. :D I have kind of had that feeling but now I really paid attention if it really is that way and yes it is. The bed, sofa bed, where Marc and Kay make love is the one in the living room.

#2 There's a world map behind/aside of the couch leaning against the wall. That's a no-brainer. That obviously indicates that Kay isn't settled in one place and he even asked Marc if he has ever thought of leaving it all behind and starting all over at somewhere else.

#3 In the lobby, there's also cardboard boxes where's still stuff waiting to be put in their places in the apartment. And the map that I mentioned isn't hung on the wall. So Kay is definitely in a state of mind that he isn't necessarily staying in that apartment for long.

Offline Val

  • Sr. Ranch Hand
  • ***
  • Posts: 54
Re: Free Fall - Freier Fall
« Reply #1271 on: January 25, 2016, 02:28:33 pm »
I have noted everything you said ... Kay noticed that the room is also combined with the kitchen? You can see the coffee pot and the stove. And a bag of fighting near the bed.
The boxes show maybe the little time that Kay had arrived in the city, according to data from this okay forum should have stayed there for about four months only. But Kay just moved to the city because of Marc. I think he wanted to win it and go. Remember that Kay did not know that Marc was married!
Kay is a very independent man and sure of himself, should not be small town, I think he is Berlin. Perhaps in FF2 we can learn more about Kay either.

Tiina, there are many details that would like to discuss, such as deleted scenes ... one in which the Marc learns qu Kay left is too much. It could have been placed before the empty apartment scene as a way to strengthen the feeling of loss of Marc.Adoro that scene! Marc is so estatificado and perplexed with the news that does not smoke more !! His expression is one of deep surprise and much pain !!

Big hug.
Val.

Offline Tiina

  • Jr. Ranch Hand
  • **
  • Posts: 12
Re: Free Fall - Freier Fall
« Reply #1272 on: January 25, 2016, 06:00:10 pm »
Tiina, there are many details that would like to discuss, such as deleted scenes ... one in which the Marc learns qu Kay left is too much. It could have been placed before the empty apartment scene as a way to strengthen the feeling of loss of Marc.Adoro that scene! Marc is so estatificado and perplexed with the news that does not smoke more !! His expression is one of deep surprise and much pain !!

Big hug.
Val.
Yes, interesting deleted scene and you're right, it could have been before "empty apartment" scene. But I wonder if the scene would have been in the movie at all should they have chosen that deleted scene instead. One plot in deleted scenes was that Frank was cheating his wife with Britt. That was a big surprise. :o I'm glad they didn't use it in the final version.

Marc goes to Kay's apartment right after the shower scene. After Bettina has returned home. A big question mark is.. had Kay been home, what would Marc had said. It's easy to imagine that he would want Kay back but to me it has always felt a bit strange choice considering that Bettina JUST got home. I would imagine Marc would have tried to solve things with Bettina first. Was Marc going Kay's place just to tell him that Bettina knows about them now or something like that or would Marc have really as early on tried to get back together with Kay despite Bettina. Any thoughts?

Offline Val

  • Sr. Ranch Hand
  • ***
  • Posts: 54
Re: Free Fall - Freier Fall
« Reply #1273 on: January 25, 2016, 06:28:06 pm »
Yes, it was clear to me that Marc was intended to be okay with Bettina, even loving Kay. Marc was confused as to his feelings but he wanted to preserve his family.
The scene of the apartment explains a lot: Marc was Kay know the reason have gone out to the bar, was to expose and tell them about the affair or was on a date other guys. He was jealous of Kay.
The scene in which Marc says he is "suffocating" already shows that he misses the Kay and when he learns that he went to the bar jealousy is latent.
When Kay says that the love he is immobilized. At that moment Marc understands all: that between him and Kay is not just sex and that something bigger came there.
Earlier Marc thought it was just sex and that could leave when Kay wanted, but the scene of the apartment he saw that also loves the real Kay.
The kiss between them shows a lack they feel each other, is a suffering kiss, homesick, strong !! (THE BEST MOVIE SCENE).

In the following scenes is observed that Marc is calmer, more serene and peaceful, it seems that he understood that love Kay. Pity that after he leaves FEAR master your mind and Marc leaves Kay.

That is why I wish the FF2 Marc suffer a lot to win Kay back !!

Val.

P.S. Sorry my English, I think I can not express myself well.

Offline Tiina

  • Jr. Ranch Hand
  • **
  • Posts: 12
Re: Free Fall - Freier Fall
« Reply #1274 on: January 25, 2016, 07:46:00 pm »
Some very old discussions:

30. So why does Marc provoke Gregor in the locker room?  Is he trying to get himself beaten purposely?  Is he trying to get enough evidence on Gregor to get him fired?  Does Marc now just hate himself?  Do we find clues in the next scenes of Marc dancing alone in the gay bar, doing drugs and wishing his pickup was Kay, but no, not Kay.  Was Marc truly not gay and only in love in Kay?

Cheers, V.

To me, this is the “short dirty fight” that Ennis picks with the guy in the pick-up, after Thanksgiving dinner at Alma’s, when she tells him she knows the truth.
As for Limpinski: Is he a latent homosexual?  
The scene in the bar is strange.  Is he trying to recreate his time with Kay?  Why take x?  He was not a drug guy by any means, and it doesn’t work that fast, he was on that guy in a second.  
One thing I did not like was when he raised his fist to hit the guy; another place where the director took it right to the edge and brought it back.

Yeah, very sad to watch.  He knows he’s lost everything, he knows it’s his fault, he’s facing up to his responsibility in hurting Bettina and Kay.  Shit, is right.

Two scenes I have thinking about a lot:
Marc alone in the bar. When I watched the movie the first time, I thought Marc wanted to investigate his gay feelings by having sexual contact with another guy. 
But I think you are right BF, he was trying to recreate his time with Kay. That's why he does exact the same things: dancing, taking drugs, the bathroom.
And maybe that's the moment he realizes it was not just sex with Kay, he found out that Kay was not exchangeable for just another guy.
In the audio comments they didn't say anything about the reason Marc went to the gay bar. But Max and Hanno made a joke. During the scene Marc was in the bathroom with the other guy, Max said: that was difficult for you, wasn't it Hanno? With someone else. Hanno said: I missed you, you can see that. Then both laughed and Hanno said: no, that was really terrible.
But I think this was more about Max/Hanno then Kay/Marc because both actors are clear about the fact that they only wanted to do this movie with each other.

The second scene I thought about is the scene with that Gregor guy. Why did Marc provoke him and why did he let Gregor abuse him?
The first time I thought: why don't you hit him back and hit him really hard for what he did to Kay en what he is doing to you now?
But from the first moment I had the feeling that Marc was mentally the strongest in that scene. Remember wat Gregor said after he hit him: what are you laughing now?
He had no grip on Marc and that made Gregor even angrier.

I think Marc accepted his feelings for Kay, accepted the fact that he fell for another man and did not want to hide this side of him anymore. Like: this is me, whether you like it or not.
And it was like he was making something up to Kay by no longer denying what they had together.
And it may sound rediculous, but when Marc said to Gregor: Is that all you've got? PUSSY, that was for me the most emotional moment of the movie.
He said Kay's word, pussy. And the way he said it, I can't explain why, but for me this made Kay so present. Really, I cried my eyes out.

No, I dont think it had something to do with self-punishment. I think Marc was no langer ashamed and able to stand up for himself.

No No No, it doesn't sound ridiculous!  You are 100% right!  He admits to Gregor, a known homophobe, that he has been with Kay.  When Marc says to Gregor "pussy", he is remembering everything about Kay, and what he learned from him.  It's an extremely emotional scene.  He is drawing strength from Kay, what he learned from him - very very emotional.

Not sure about Limpinski - nice choice for a name aye?   There have been studies I've read which implies those exhibiting the most strong homophobic behaviors may be latent..  Yes on the BBM scene with Ennis punching the guy thru the truck window - raging anger.  
The bar scene (to me) is Marc's uber desperate attempt to replace Kay's touch or feeling with another lover... he's grown fond (enjoyed)  the experience. It is there, in the stall with the other guy, that he realizes it is ALL gone.. Kay is gone, Bettina is gone and a blow job by a stranger is not and never will be Kay.  I sort of flashed to the Jack "Tell you what" scene at the tent with Ennis the last time they were together - though there's no one for Marc to tell..  Marc's experiences with X or most substances seemed very sheltered / limited (back to the parents...) and only have been with Kay.  Yes the raised fist is symbolic of Marc fighting / anger with himself but then realizes he can leave.. back to the forest.. only this time he does leave  V.

My thoughts:

Gregor is saying nasty things about Kay and it's hard to let someone trash-talk of a person you love. And especially when Kay isn't there to defend himself, Marc feels the need to do so. I have always seen the same thing in this scene as I see in the next scene, the club scene. Which is missing Kay. Marc uses the exact same words as Kay and is behaving exactly like Kay with Gregor. "Getting horny, huh?" and "Pussy." Marc could have handled the situation very differently, but that copying tells me that Marc is missing Kay. He's making Kay present and like in the club scene, Marc is making a recreation of the past. I guess the "acting like Kay" also tells about that he's proud of Kay, he was perfect, the way he was.

But why not just defend Kay's honour, why does Marc feel the need to provoke Gregor. Lot of the times when a person is being hurt mentally, for some strange reason, the person wants to also feel the pain physically. And I think this is why Marc wants to be beaten up by Gregor. Or this might also be simply about self-punishment. Does Marc try to fight back.. no.
Marc does kind of come out of the closet too, but I don't think that is what this scene's about. I think he just happens to come out of the closet. Sure, in the past he would never ever had revealed that he has been with a man, but now that Marc has lost EVERYTHING.. what is there to lose anymore.


Offline Tiina

  • Jr. Ranch Hand
  • **
  • Posts: 12
Re: Free Fall - Freier Fall
« Reply #1275 on: January 25, 2016, 07:57:31 pm »
The kiss between them shows a lack they feel each other, is a suffering kiss, homesick, strong !! (THE BEST MOVIE SCENE).

In the following scenes is observed that Marc is calmer, more serene and peaceful, it seems that he understood that love Kay. Pity that after he leaves FEAR master your mind and Marc leaves Kay.

That is why I wish the FF2 Marc suffer a lot to win Kay back !!

Val.

P.S. Sorry my English, I think I can not express myself well.
Yes, it's so clear after the "I love you scene" that Marc and Kay are in love with each other. That's why it's very frustrating that Marc still does the 180 and decides to choose the traditional family life. ::)

But.. anything can happen in Free Fall 2  ;)

(Yes Val, not perfect English, but I think I have understood what you're trying to say in every sentence.)
« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 05:46:12 am by Tiina »

Offline Tiina

  • Jr. Ranch Hand
  • **
  • Posts: 12
Re: Free Fall - Freier Fall
« Reply #1276 on: January 26, 2016, 12:43:49 pm »

   23. The scene with Marc's mum waiting in the car plays out and is quite frustrating.  Mum tries to place a "guilt trip" on Marc when implying she failed in raising him "to be like that..."  Marc's response is quite surprising and shows Marc becoming more embolden, willing to stand up to mum... that's tough, maybe too tough.

I didn’t think she said she failed in raising him.  She said she “didn’t raise him to be like that.”  Which kind of doesn’t make sense to me.  What hetero couple would raise their kid to be gay?  Or straight, for that matter.  What I mean is, you can't raise a child to be one way or another.
Yes, he did finally get a bit of a backbone and came down pretty hard on her.

From my POV, that's implied... if you turned out like this, then we failed in "raising you right".. I've been on the receiving side of similar conversations and it was clear to me what she was implying.   I agree, you hope your kids find your own way but in areas where there is only ONE way, once word gets out that the kids did not turn out "right..." then the community automatically wonders WTH did the parents not do for their kids.. implying failure.

I interpreted Marc's mum's words as her implying they failed raising Marc right. Yes, you can't raise your child to be a hetero or a gay, but you can set the norms and teach right from wrong etc. What's interesting is the fact that I think most people immediately assume that Marc's mother is speaking about Marc being gay, but is she? Maybe she is just implying to the fact that Marc is cheating on Bettina. And the same goes to the scene at Marc's home. Didn't the director say something like that for many people being gay is ok as long as it doesn't concern you or your family. Then it changes. So I guess that's the point in the "We have nothing against you or gays, but..." scene, but who is there to say that this is again about the gay issue. Who the fuck would want a person to come to your home that you know is having an affair with your son, even though your son is living with someone and they just had a baby. So for me it has never been clearly about homophobia, but about cheating, which obviously is not acceptable.

Offline Val

  • Sr. Ranch Hand
  • ***
  • Posts: 54
Re: Free Fall - Freier Fall
« Reply #1277 on: January 26, 2016, 03:39:00 pm »
Some very old discussions:

My thoughts:

Gregor is saying nasty things about Kay and it's hard to let someone trash-talk of a person you love. And especially when Kay isn't there to defend himself, Marc feels the need to do so. I have always seen the same thing in this scene as I see in the next scene, the club scene. Which is missing Kay. Marc uses the exact same words as Kay and is behaving exactly like Kay with Gregor. "Getting horny, huh?" and "Pussy." Marc could have handled the situation very differently, but that copying tells me that Marc is missing Kay. He's making Kay present and like in the club scene, Marc is making a recreation of the past. I guess the "acting like Kay" also tells about that he's proud of Kay, he was perfect, the way he was.

But why not just defend Kay's honour, why does Marc feel the need to provoke Gregor. Lot of the times when a person is being hurt mentally, for some strange reason, the person wants to also feel the pain physically. And I think this is why Marc wants to be beaten up by Gregor. Or this might also be simply about self-punishment. Does Marc try to fight back.. no.
Marc does kind of come out of the closet too, but I don't think that is what this scene's about. I think he just happens to come out of the closet. Sure, in the past he would never ever had revealed that he has been with a man, but now that Marc has lost EVERYTHING.. what is there to lose anymore.



I confess I do not like to see this scene because I'm very sorry for Marc.
I think Marc allowed Gregor hit him because he was punishing himself for what happened to Kay. Marc is explosive and could have retaliated. But it was not what happened.
See: At the beginning of the scene already see that Marc is very upset by the absence of Kay and everything that is happening to him, moreover Kay was humiliated by Gregor and Marc did not help him at the time, on the contrary abandoned for stay with Bettina. Now that Kay is gone he is suffering and has no turning back and apologize to him.
So I think the Mac is starting to take their new sexuality to himself and is withdrawing forces from their pain.
I believe all the words that Marc spoke to Gregor mean that it is now equal to Kay !! Yes, it is gay too and will beat me for it !!!

P.S. In the deleted scene where Marc discovers that Kay left the Frank says he can forget about the criminal case ... but that process is this? It would be against Gregor? And when you proposed? Was it about the fight in the cafeteria where Kay hits Gregor because he humiliated him? Interesting one deleted scene.

Offline Val

  • Sr. Ranch Hand
  • ***
  • Posts: 54
Re: Free Fall - Freier Fall
« Reply #1278 on: January 26, 2016, 03:48:36 pm »
I interpreted Marc's mum's words as her implying they failed raising Marc right. Yes, you can't raise your child to be a hetero or a gay, but you can set the norms and teach right from wrong etc. What's interesting is the fact that I think most people immediately assume that Marc's mother is speaking about Marc being gay, but is she? Maybe she is just implying to the fact that Marc is cheating on Bettina. And the same goes to the scene at Marc's home. Didn't the director say something like that for many people being gay is ok as long as it doesn't concern you or your family. Then it changes. So I guess that's the point in the "We have nothing against you or gays, but..." scene, but who is there to say that this is again about the gay issue. Who the fuck would want a person to come to your home that you know is having an affair with your son, even though your son is living with someone and they just had a baby. So for me it has never been clearly about homophobia, but about cheating, which obviously is not acceptable.

Tiina agree with you, do not think the Marc family is totally homophobic, because they did not confront the Marc about it after his mother see him with Kay in the hospital. I think the big problem is treason to the wife of Marc. The fact that Marc having a child is also very strong for them. Note that the mother of Marc says to Kay: "you know what day it is?"

Let us agree that Kay is no saint in this story. But it's not the only culprit, because Marc was involved with him because he wanted to. Kay was very engaging and fell in love of truth and Marc just wanted sex and ended up loving the Kay too !!

It's a beautiful love story !!!

Offline Val

  • Sr. Ranch Hand
  • ***
  • Posts: 54
Re: Free Fall - Freier Fall
« Reply #1279 on: January 27, 2016, 02:50:42 pm »
Tiiiiiiiiiiiiiinaaaaaaaaaa!!! Ele é belo!!! He's beautiful!!

 8)