Author Topic: Let's discuss  (Read 12513 times)

Offline lena0

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Let's discuss
« on: September 29, 2017, 03:51:51 am »
Do you think their love would get less intense if they weren't separated for most of their lives? Why or why not
« Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 08:48:21 pm by lena0 »

Offline Corax

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Re: Let's discuss
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2017, 04:29:40 am »
Good question
I once had a long distance relationship for more than 3 years  (not as long as E/A I know)
When we were together it was like woohoo!
When we weren't together there were 3 stages:
At the beginning I missed my partner so much it hurt like hell. Then it became kind of normal to live my life as an independent (and not always faithful) person. But when I got the message "let's meet" I got so excited and was full of love and longing.
It was really complicated...and at some point I knew that I could not stand it forever though the love was always in my heart. But I realized that the love wasn't deep and strong enough to go on like that.


I think that E and J were deeply in love with each other. And since they held on all the time I think their love changed somehow from love and sexual desire to more love and friendship - and less desire (if Ennis ever had much sexual desire).
In the movie you see them talk and ride horses and behave like an old married couple. IMO that's deep love, understanding and friendship.
I don't think this love would have gone less intense because it developed to a deep love AND friendship.

 But there would have been a lot of bickering because they were so different.


Offline BBM_victim

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Re: Let's discuss
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2017, 09:33:56 pm »
Hey there!

I agree, this is something i was wondering about, too. If they had their "sweet life" - would it work?

I think that E and J were deeply in love with each other. And since they held on all the time I think their love changed somehow from love and sexual desire to more love and friendship - and less desire (if Ennis ever had much sexual desire).
In the movie you see them talk and ride horses and behave like an old married couple. IMO that's deep love, understanding and friendship.

Regarding the first sentence - i really hope so, too. If not, then this would be not a story i like. So, let's say this is the basic foundation for further discussion.
Regarding the rest - i like what you say here, Corax. And i want to believe this, too.

But there are some things that make me wonder...


You have to consider their character traits. They are both deeply flawed and they "produce" unhealthy dynamics which make that tragic outcome inevitable.
Ennis is not only homophobic. Actually, i think homophobia is something that he *could* overcome with time and with right people around. His homophobia is just *one* of his fears. A much bigger problem in my eyes is that Ennis does not think he deserves it to be happy in general. This is something that is caused by his upbringing and the fact that his parents died so early. He has problems with basic trust. Which does not mean that he does not trust what the people say or do, but he does not trust life in general. He cannot feel safe, cannot let himself "fall" because he learnt that there will be nobody and nothing to "catch" him. The only exception when he lets himself "fall" is on Brokeback - and that's exactly the reason (or one of the reasons) why he loves Jack. Because Jack is able to give him that safe place, something he cannot find anywhere else. But the catch is - Ennis must let Jack, and, it must be "in the middle of nowhere". So, basically, the conditions for Ennis' safe place are pretty narrow and partly he limits it himself.

Lets say Ennis somehow manages to put himself together, or Jack somehow manages to pressure/convince Ennis and they live together. The problem with Ennis' basic trust will cause him to look for any tiny possible hint of failure. Yeah, one could also call it "paranoia". And i think you don't have to be homophobic to think that the world will never accept you and your partner. Because you're just different. So, you start to look for those "strange" looks or "suspicious" signs of rejection. And then every little time you find out that you were right you say "told you so! this is bound to go wrong" and every time you almost run away unless your partner "catches" you there. I know this pattern very well, except i'm on the "catching" side. Believe me, it drives you crazy.. Especially because it never goes away. You might think your (paranoid) partner and you mastered a difficult situation, some lesson was learnt and you think same kind of problem will not come up again - well, think again...

Because this kind of pattern goes so deep into a person's psyche, it's almost a part of the person. It's very difficult to get rid of this... Ennis is someone who is used to be lonely, used to be rejected. Anything outside of this state of loneliness and rejection is foreign to him, and foreign means scary. His tragedy is that he knows that it destroys him (and even more painful is to see that it also destroys the person he loves the most), but he just cannot see any way out.


As for Jack, i consider him as a dreamer who loves the challenge. Which will be my eventual point. It seems that he spent his whole life in pursue of his daddy's love and acknowledgement. He is also in an contradictory state - on the one hand he is hurting when being close to his daddy, but on the other hand he cannot go away for good because that would mean that he "lost" the "battle" and that hope (dreamer!) for maybe someday being able to receive that love and acknowledgement will be forever lost. If you think about it - *all* of his other "affections" run along the same lines. Bull-riding, L.D. and - Ennis. He says "Nothin never come to my hand the right way". Well, was it all just some kind of higher destiny or was it partly also from his own doing? Because (same as Ennis) this is who he is - someone who cannot go away from a challenge, no matter how hurt he gets in the process.

Now consider Jack having his dream fulfilled, having that sweet life with Ennis - will he be happy? I don't know...  Maybe for a short while? Before he gets itching again and finds himself a different challenge? Or before he does something that will cause Ennis to reject him in some way so that that challenge to "get" Ennis will be regained?

Another possible problem could be that Ennis is someone who is happy with what he has, but Jack always goes for more. It *could* work out - with a lot of talking, reciprocal consideration and understanding, but the actual odds are high that this will cause [a lot of] friction. Sure, one could view this as a challenge again, which would tie Jack back to Ennis, but does it mean happiness? It would fulfill Jack's unhealthy need to "stay on the bull", but it will not make his life easier. His statement i quoted above, in a way he wishes he could reach his dreams easier (who doesn't?), but i don't think that would be something that would give him real and long-standing satisfaction.


I know, all of this is sick. Unhealthy. But this is who they both are - deeply broken human beings, extremely difficult to fix... The love that they had was true and strong, but i have my doubts they could actually live it out in the way Jack imagined it. IF they somehow managed it, it would be a long long long and hard hard hard road to go.


Now - your turn. :)

Offline CellarDweller

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Re: Let's discuss
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2017, 07:54:44 pm »
I remember having a discussion about this years ago.  There were a few people who felt that their love stayed so intense because they were never together enough to get tired of each other.

:laugh:


Tell him when l come up to him and ask to play the record, l'm gonna say: ''Voulez-vous jouer ce disque?''
'Voulez-vous, will you kiss my dick?'
Will you play my record? One-track mind!

Offline Corax

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Re: Let's discuss
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2017, 03:48:22 am »
I remember having a discussion about this years ago.  There were a few people who felt that their love stayed so intense because they were never together enough to get tired of each other.

:laugh:

Oh yes, I guess they were right in some way ;D I remember getting bored/tired of some relationships myself...  sometimes you are crazy about someone - until you are around each other too often.  :laugh:
« Last Edit: October 07, 2017, 07:35:16 am by Corax »

Offline Corax

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Re: Let's discuss
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2017, 04:34:49 am »

I agree, this is something i was wondering about, too. If they had their "sweet life" - would it work?
So, basically, the conditions for Ennis' safe place are pretty narrow and partly he limits it himself.

Lets say Ennis somehow manages to put himself together, or Jack somehow manages to pressure/convince Ennis and they live together.

I have to admit that I never ever thought that living together was a realistic idea of both of them. J was a dreamer and most of his stories were hot air. Consider that he complained about the situation but didn't DO anything himself to change it. He just drove back and forth once or twice a year. When I answered the question I imagined that they got together more often  ;) once in a month or maybe once in a week (if Jack had finally gotten his a into g, split up with Lureen and moved closer to Riverton)

Considering the time and the two characters - no way of living together.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2017, 07:41:36 am by Corax »

Offline Corax

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Re: Let's discuss
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2017, 06:29:22 am »
Quote
   I know this pattern very well, except i'm on the "catching" side. Believe me, it drives you crazy.. Especially because it never goes away. You might think your (paranoid) partner and you mastered a difficult situation, some lesson was learnt and you think same kind of problem will not come up again - well, think again...

I  know what it's like to be in this situation ... I was on the running/hiding side very often.. .. 😕😶

Offline BBM_victim

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Re: Let's discuss
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2017, 10:00:09 pm »
I remember having a discussion about this years ago.  There were a few people who felt that their love stayed so intense because they were never together enough to get tired of each other.

:laugh:
Well, Chuck, and what are *your* own thoughts on the question asked?

I have to admit that I never ever thought that living together was a realistic idea of both of them. J was a dreamer and most of his stories were hot air. Consider that he complained about the situation but didn't DO anything himself to change it. He just drove back and forth once or twice a year. When I answered the question I imagined that they got together more often  ;) once in a month or maybe once in a week (if Jack had finally gotten his a into g, split up with Lureen and moved closer to Riverton)

Considering the time and the two characters - no way of living together.

You know, Corax, i do sympathize with Jack, though. I don't think he was a type who just produced hot air to impress or to pose. In my understanding of his character he was afraid, too. He saw himself stuck and could not think of any way out that would work. Or in other words, he could not bring up enough courage to actually try any of his ideas. Reasons for these being:

One, he loves Ennis and feels his fears, understands that Ennis is torn himself and deeply hurting while at the same time needing to be with Jack. You need to have quite an ego to just forget about all of this and just move up (closer) to Riverton to insist on your idea of living together. And don't forget Jack knows that Ennis loves his girls, too. Jack is not an egoist at all. He is someone who is very shy about himself, someone who would always put Ennis' sorrows before his own. So, no way he can just do something without Ennis' approval.

Two, since Jack loves Ennis, he is prone to trust him - this is a natural thing, isn't it? If you love somebody there is something that makes you respect that person and, therefore, trust his / her judgement. So, what if Ennis is right about his fears? I think anytime Jack is close to just fuck it and do something to change their situation he is seized by doubts - what if Ennis is right and either one or both of them end up dead? What if his decisive move causes nothing but greater pain than what they are in right now?

Three, you have to consider that the short story as well as the movie do not show us all of their times together and all of their discussions. We don't know how much they talked about that idea in the first place. In fact, i think the scene at the river in the movie where Ennis is frustrated about Jack suggesting moving to Texas indicates that they had several talks on the subject and that the outcome was always the same: two men living together - no way. By the way, some people say that this scene also indicates that Ennis had his own fantasies on the idea and that he actually did want to live together, but just never saw it work out.

Offline CellarDweller

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Re: Let's discuss
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2017, 07:23:40 pm »
Well, Chuck, and what are *your* own thoughts on the question asked?


I'm not sure.  I'd like to think that their love would've lasted a lifetime together.   In reality, love doesn't always last.


Tell him when l come up to him and ask to play the record, l'm gonna say: ''Voulez-vous jouer ce disque?''
'Voulez-vous, will you kiss my dick?'
Will you play my record? One-track mind!

Offline BBM_victim

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Re: Let's discuss
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2017, 08:07:24 pm »
In reality, love doesn't always last.

That's true, Chuck. And especially if the two people are not working for it. For these two there would be *lots* of work involved...

Offline CellarDweller

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Re: Let's discuss
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2017, 10:13:47 pm »
Yes, you are  certainly right on that.

I have the feeling that Jack would be more than willing to work at it.   But would Ennis?  I'm not so sure.


Tell him when l come up to him and ask to play the record, l'm gonna say: ''Voulez-vous jouer ce disque?''
'Voulez-vous, will you kiss my dick?'
Will you play my record? One-track mind!

Offline Sason

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Re: Let's discuss
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2017, 02:08:27 pm »
On that note:

I sorted out some old papers on my desk today, and unearthed a several years old scrap of paper with a joke on it that was probably meant for the photo caps on DCF, but I don't think I ever used it.

The picture would be of the boys sitting at the lake talking about Jack's marriage and Cassie.

Jack: "Truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."

Ennis: "Well, I never promised you to stem a rose garden."

Düva pööp is a förce of natüre

Offline Corax

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Re: Let's discuss
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2017, 02:10:30 pm »
Btw where is Lena?

Offline Sason

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Re: Let's discuss
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2017, 02:11:55 pm »
What Lena?

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Offline Corax

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Re: Let's discuss
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2017, 02:14:46 pm »
She started the discussion
Lena01

And now she is gone.

It would be really helpful for talking any further to read about her pov

Offline Sason

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Re: Let's discuss
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2017, 02:22:19 pm »
Well, she hasn't been logged on to the forum since she made that post.

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Offline Corax

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Re: Let's discuss
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2017, 02:31:33 pm »
What is DCF?

Offline Corax

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Re: Let's discuss
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2017, 03:08:53 pm »
Yes, you are  certainly right on that.

I have the feeling that Jack would be more than willing to work at it.   But would Ennis?  I'm not so sure.

Sometimes it works if one partner makes every effort.  At least for a while...
I have some friends (female) who are constantly working on their relationships though (or because) their partners do not. And they all have been together for yeeeears! I believe,however, that  this is kind of masochistic... I would go mad with that...

Offline BBM_victim

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Re: Let's discuss
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2017, 11:26:15 pm »
Sometimes it works if one partner makes every effort.  At least for a while...
I have some friends (female) who are constantly working on their relationships though (or because) their partners do not. And they all have been together for yeeeears! I believe,however, that  this is kind of masochistic... I would go mad with that...
Corax and Chuck,
My underlying precondition for this discussion is that both love each other. Therefore, it cannot be that one works on the relationship more than the other. I think the sticking point would be for Ennis to commit himself to Jack in the first place. What would need to have happened for him to do so? Ennis must overcome the issues with his daddy, his own identity issues and then also his identity issues within the society (think on confirming with the norm), which is including Alma and his daughters, then find a way how to deal with any discrimination in its different levels of hate (from just a strange look, to a curse word, to an actual physical action). He would need a lot of strength to overcome all these - were would that strength come from? From what kind of insight or knowledge or from what kind of event?
Ennis is someone who needs to be pushed - by people, by events and by life itself. He is not someone who actively pursues a dream or an ideal, that's for sure. But i strongly disagree that Ennis would be happy to let Jack do all the work while he's putting his feet up (after commitment to Jack!).

Offline CellarDweller

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Re: Let's discuss
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2017, 09:53:17 am »
What is DCF?

DCF are the initials of another Brokeback forum,  the Dave Cullen Forum.   It was named that way because it was started by Dave Cullen, the author of the best-selling book Columbine.

The forum is still active, but the name has since changed to The Ultimate Brokeback Forum.


Tell him when l come up to him and ask to play the record, l'm gonna say: ''Voulez-vous jouer ce disque?''
'Voulez-vous, will you kiss my dick?'
Will you play my record? One-track mind!

Offline CellarDweller

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Re: Let's discuss
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2017, 09:57:30 am »
Ennis is someone who needs to be pushed - by people, by events and by life itself. He is not someone who actively pursues a dream or an ideal, that's for sure. But i strongly disagree that Ennis would be happy to let Jack do all the work while he's putting his feet up (after commitment to Jack!).


I don't think that anyone  said that Ennis would be happy to let Jack do all  the work. 

As for Ennis needing to be pushed, didn't Jack push for 20 years?  How much pushing is he expected to do?


Tell him when l come up to him and ask to play the record, l'm gonna say: ''Voulez-vous jouer ce disque?''
'Voulez-vous, will you kiss my dick?'
Will you play my record? One-track mind!

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Let's discuss
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2017, 10:10:07 am »
Ennis: "Well, I never promised you to stem a rose garden."

 :laugh:

Corax, DCF is another forum devoted to Brokeback Mountain. It used to be called the Dave Cullen Forum (DCF) after its founder, but now it is called the Ultimate Brokeback Forum. 
When you see the smiley face in the sky, the pandemic will be over!

Offline Corax

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Re: Let's discuss
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2017, 12:30:22 pm »
Corax and Chuck,
My underlying precondition for this discussion is that both love each other. Therefore, it cannot be that one works on the relationship more than the other.

Oh yes it can be that way. But you are right in your saying that it should not be that way.

Offline Corax

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Re: Let's discuss
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2017, 12:32:45 pm »
:laugh:

Corax, DCF is another forum devoted to Brokeback Mountain. It used to be called the Dave Cullen Forum (DCF) after its founder, but now it is called the Ultimate Brokeback Forum. 

Thx for explaining that to me. 😀

Offline Sason

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Re: Let's discuss
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2017, 03:54:09 pm »
Thanks for the laugh, Lee!   ;D


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Offline BBM_victim

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Re: Let's discuss
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2017, 08:38:32 pm »
As for Ennis needing to be pushed, didn't Jack push for 20 years?  How much pushing is he expected to do?

I don't think Jack pushed enough for somebody like Ennis. They hardly talked about their situation. Think of their last trip - after 20 years Jack still goes with Ennis' BS to tell each other lies just to keep up appearances - not towards the society or any people they know otherwise, but just among them two, in the middle of nowhere! Jack bringing up so much courage to just say that he misses Ennis tells me that Jack was shit-scarred himself. Not scarred of being killed for being gay but just scarred of Ennis' reaction, which means to me that he was an extremely insecure person (and other reasons as mentioned above already). He had his outburst(s), but they happen only when he's so desperate and hurting that his usual common sense is totally knocked out. And he calms down quite quickly - see "Damn you, Ennis". I kind of know this because i'm absolutely the same kind of person... I take it and take it and take it and at some point blow a gasket but the problem is not getting solved because i get passive again quite quickly. And this just cannot be the right way to discuss painful issues. I learnt that i have to force myself to set up a situation to be able to talk calmly about such issues, which is not easy at all. It's like turning yourself inside out and stepping out on grounds you're not familiar with, it drains me of all energy afterwards. Sometimes i succeed to get my point across and achieve some sort of agreement and sometimes i come to agree with my counterpart that he's right. But at least there is some conversation going on. Jack and Ennis - they did not talk.

Offline CellarDweller

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Re: Let's discuss
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2017, 10:40:07 am »
I don't think Jack pushed harder  because Ennis shot him down each time.


Tell him when l come up to him and ask to play the record, l'm gonna say: ''Voulez-vous jouer ce disque?''
'Voulez-vous, will you kiss my dick?'
Will you play my record? One-track mind!