Author Topic: After watching my DVD a half Dozen times  (Read 25557 times)

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: After watching my DVD a half Dozen times
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2006, 09:41:13 pm »
I don't see why you feel the need to run for cover. This part, at least, I think certainly shows how BBM fits the definition of a tragedy:

Tragedies are plays that have a common theme: humans dearing to defy the gods, fate, or societal order, and being punished for that, by paying with their own lives or losing those dearest to them. The punishment is usually administered in a symbolic or very dramatic fashion - suicide, violent death, etc.

Ennis and Jack defied their societal order. Jack lost his life, Ennis lost the one dearest to him (Jack). Jack's death is violent.
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Offline monimm18

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Re: After watching my DVD a half Dozen times
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2006, 10:04:56 pm »
Thanks, Jeff  :)

I forgot to mention another way punishment is administered in a classical tragedy: death by murder - execution style; which is what I consider Jack's death to be.

This is how I se it:

Ennis defied Fate - he was given Jack as his true soulmate and he refused to accept him. For that, Fate took her gift back.

Jack defied societal norms, indeed. He failed to fully hide his true nature, which was so utterly unacceptable, that "society" punished him in the cruelest way.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2006, 10:14:31 pm by monimm18 »
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: After watching my DVD a half Dozen times
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2006, 10:33:51 pm »
I don't see why you feel the need to run for cover. This part, at least, I think certainly shows how BBM fits the definition of a tragedy:

Tragedies are plays that have a common theme: humans dearing to defy the gods, fate, or societal order, and being punished for that, by paying with their own lives or losing those dearest to them. The punishment is usually administered in a symbolic or very dramatic fashion - suicide, violent death, etc.

Ennis and Jack defied their societal order. Jack lost his life, Ennis lost the one dearest to him (Jack). Jack's death is violent.

Except for the 'it's a play' part. ;D  Yep BBM is a tragedy, no one is disputing that.  Mundane death - which was violent - or murder which was also violent.

Offline ednbarby

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Re: After watching my DVD a half Dozen times
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2006, 11:40:51 pm »
Yes, but, but...

Crap.  Here's what it comes down to for me:  Argonautica and Brokeback Mountain are both tragic in the irony of their conclusions.  The irony in the former is that Jason was killed by the very thing that he so loved.  The irony in Brokeback Mountain is that Jack was killed by the very thing that he so loved - that thing being Ennis.  Ennis' refusal to build a life around Jack is what killed him.  One way or another, it did.  Whether that way was by accident or by murder is immaterial.  Holy Hell - I'm just having this revelation now as I type...  I still think the film aims to lean towards its not being an accident - that just follows the whole arc of the story - Ennis' admission to Jack that his father essentially took part in a hate crime and Jack's realization that that moment shapes who Ennis is - then Jack dies by hate crime.  But I do *finally* see that either way, the level of tragedy is the same.

Wow.  Annie Proulx and Diana Ossana and Larry McMurtry and Ang Lee are even bigger mental giants than I had already given them credit for.  Wow.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2006, 11:43:02 pm by ednbarby »
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Offline montferrat

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Re: After watching my DVD a half Dozen times
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2006, 12:08:11 am »
I'm in the " it's ambiguous " camp.

And as someone upthread mentioned, I don't think it lessens the tragedy of Ennis' life if Jack did die randomly.
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Offline JCinNYC2006

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Re: After watching my DVD a half Dozen times
« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2006, 12:19:27 am »
I know.  I can't handle it, either.  The truth really is unbearable. 

I think realizing that truth from Ennis' point of view in the end is what made weep so much, I thought I'd asphyxiate from it during the Lightning Flat scenes the second and third times I saw Brokeback in the theater.  And it's what made me start sobbing in the midst of singing "...And when no hope was left in sight on that starry, starry night, you took your life as lovers often do" to my son the night after the day I saw it for the first time.
Ohhhhh that song is another doozy, and no one sings it like Don McLean.  But I know what you mean about finding the 'real answer' of Jack's death to be too much.  For me, it's a reminder of how some gay people can still pay with their lives for being who they are.  40 years after they first met, it still happens.

Sorry to be a downer....I hate dwelling on that aspect of the movie.

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: After watching my DVD a half Dozen times
« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2006, 12:35:16 am »
Greek tragedy - a literary composition written to be performed by actors in which a central character called a tragic protagonist or hero suffers some serious misfortune which is not accidental and therefore meaningless, but is significant in that the misfortune is logically connected with the hero's actions. Tragedy stresses the vulnerability of human beings whose suffering is brought on by a combination of human and divine actions, but is generally undeserved with regard to its harshness.

OK, how about this? Maybe your interpretation has to do with whether as a viewer you're Enniscentric or Jackcentric.

If Ennis is the tragic hero, then it's HIS tragic flaw -- his refusal to be true to himself and Jack -- that leads to his tragic fate. That is having to endure the love of his life dying (which could be one way or another; the uncertainty only adds to his suffering), and accept the knowledge that he missed his one chance to be happy, that it's largely his own fault -- there's that logical connection with the hero's actions -- and that he will be grieving for the rest of his life (a fate  undeserved with regard to its harshness, if you ask me).

If Jack is the tragic hero, then HIS tragic flaw is his openness and hope and optimism and willingness to take risks. I know, doesn't sound like much of a flaw, but in a society as intolerant as theirs, it becomes one. That interpretation supports the tire-iron conclusion, because it's logically connected to the hero's actions, whereas a roadside accident is not. That his suffering is of undeserved harshness, in that case, goes without saying.



Offline montferrat

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Re: After watching my DVD a half Dozen times
« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2006, 01:16:43 am »
Katherine, I have always known I was "Enniscentric", which does NOT mean I don't love Jack!
However, yes, I totally agree that if you view this as Ennis' story, then one doesn't need for the tire-iron scenario to be the "real" cause of death.

It has always been my view that Jack's death is ambiguous and that Ennis is the main protagonist of this story.

Again, you can't have Ennis without Jack, I LOVE jack. I Want  Jack's babies.  But, at the end of the day, I'm Enniscentric.

 :)
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: After watching my DVD a half Dozen times
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2006, 01:32:52 am »
Mmmmmmm.  I do so love the idea of the fatal flaw.  Because we all possess (at least) one, do we not?  Another of my favorite movies (Quiz Show) explored Vanity as being the one.  As do some of my favorite novels, like Lord Jim, Return of the Native, A Tale of Two Cities, and Moby Dick.

Pick a habit - we got plenty to go around.

For me, Ennis' fatal flaw is fear.

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Offline ednbarby

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Re: After watching my DVD a half Dozen times
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2006, 01:40:36 am »
[quote author]Ohhhhh that song is another doozy, and no one sings it like Don McLean.  But I know what you mean about finding the 'real answer' of Jack's death to be too much.  For me, it's a reminder of how some gay people can still pay with their lives for being who they are.  40 years after they first met, it still happens.

Sorry to be a downer....I hate dwelling on that aspect of the movie.[/quote]

I know what you mean.  I do, too.  And yet, that's the first and foremost thing this movie taught me - how monumentally difficult it must be for gay men in our stupid society.  No, it didn't beat me over the head with its message like, ahem, *some* movies.  It gave me credit for being intelligent enough to come to that conclusion on my own.
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