Author Topic: After watching my DVD a half Dozen times  (Read 25404 times)

Offline delalluvia

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Re: After watching my DVD a half Dozen times
« Reply #80 on: April 08, 2006, 06:17:47 pm »
And the hits just keep onnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn comin'!, Jeff

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Nor do I love Jack the less. It just hurts all the more, now I see him in this light.

Granted, Ennis was a lousy husband. For that matter, I've never really understood why Jack stuck it out with him for that long. Wouldn't it have been more "grown up" of Jack to quit Ennis long before that final confrontation?

Yep, go check out the "Who do you identify more with, Jack or Ennis?" and read about the people who stayed with their Ennis' because they were in love (me for one).  Love is a hard nut to crack sometimes.  How often do you find it?  I mean, real love?  It's hard to let go when you do. 

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I'll grant the point that Jack does seem more willing to try to fix things than to stand them, but look at his suggested fix to the food situation: killing and eating one of the sheep they were getting paid to guard. I have to take my stand with Ennis on that one.

I was with Jack.  It was an emergency, they'd lost half their food for a week through no fault of their own.  Yeah, they could subsist on beans for a week, but why would they want to if they didn't have to?

Jack:  What are you talking about?  They're a thousand of them.

Aguirre expected an attrition rate of his sheep anyway.  One more or less wouldn't have been that earth-shattering nor - had they been good shepherds - even noticed.

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(OT but I've always felt Jake was badly directed--yes, I said badly directed!--in the scene where Jack tries and fails to shoot the coyote. He isn't even trying to aim that rifle properly.)

Maybe that's because Jack is not really good with a gun?   :-*  It's just one more thing he might brag that he knows how to do but really doesn't?  Ang made sure Jake and Heath knew how to ride and rope and handle livestock and you're saying that Ang neglected something as basic as gun-handling when there are two scenes that are clearly meant to contrast the marksmanship of our two guys?  I don't think so.

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I think the evidence is slim to call Jack his son's primary care giver, but that might also hinge on how the term is defined, though without doubt he does show admirable concern for his son's well-being.

Agree.  But since the scene Jack has with Bobby playing riding him around the combine is an added scene and not in the story I think that that's what it means .  What adds to that is that the scene takes place not at their house, but at Newsome's Farm Equipment, that IMO implies Jack has time or wants to play with his son on the job, while Lureen does/can not.  It was a family business.  I imagine both Jack and Lureen spent a lot of time there.  Since Lureen was the owner, and Jack only a salesman, he could 'clock out' at 5 pm, go pick up Bobby from school/caretaker while Lureen stayed behind to shut down the business, tally the sales, balance the books, etc.

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(Let's also not forget Ennis's concern that his little girls are being exposed to those slopbucket bikers, he suggests treating them to ice cream, and he promises to take them to the church picnic.)
 

Agree, but Ennis' fireworks scene was about his irritation and feelings of being trapped.  Notice that his 'little girls' exposed to such language are not of an age to even understand what is being said.  Heck, Jenny is practically an infant!  Ennis suggests treating them to ice cream, but parents often offer a treat when children have been sick as an incentive (plus it was also wonky that Ennis would buy ice cream for an infant and a two year old), but this is very very early in his relationship with Alma.  Before he even meets Jack again.  Ennis only promises to take the girls to the church picnic because they pleaded with him.  He apparently had not intended to go nor offered to take them before.

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We don't know whose idea it was to go to that charity dinner dance, but I wouldn't be surprised if Lureen dragged Jack there, more out of concern for social position in the community than from any desire for a social life. To me he doesn't look too happy about being there.

True, but Jack still goes.  Could Alma have dragged Ennis?  If a man doesn't want to go somewhere, he doesn't go.  Like Ennis.  Jack went.  The Newsome's are a big, well known family business in Childress.  It would be expected that they're part of the local social set that does such things.  Jack would have known that from the beginning.

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And running off to a hustler in Mexico just because he can't get laid by Ennis is the act of a spoiled, selfish brat. (Yes, I'm being very harsh here.)

Soooooo after five years of being faithful to Ennis, an unselfish healthy young man raging with hormones that cannot be assuaged by his wife would just go home and keep doing without because his lover tells him that's the way it's going to be?

Jack:  I'm not you!  I can't make it on a few high-atitiude fucks a year!

And he's not and Jack shouldn't be expected to be an Ennis and act like a monk because he can't get what he needs from his lover. 

Sounds practical and pragmatic, not selfish.  It also sounds sad.  Jack is not happy at all that he does it.

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Running up to Wyoming unannounced just because he got word that Ennis's divorce had been finalized is not a very adult course of action.

Adult?  Very much so.  I think we all have stories like this.  I wouldn't be the one to say they're not the actions of an adult. To me, Jack acts like a man in love.  Announced?  Sure.  Jack is implusive, takes chances.  That's who he is.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: After watching my DVD a half Dozen times
« Reply #81 on: April 08, 2006, 07:09:23 pm »
(and I love how her [Alma, Jr.'s] face opens up like a flower with pleasure when he says he will),

Barb,

Just had to say, that's a beautiful and very apt image--more or less what I thought myself as I watched the scene Friday night.

Jeff
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: After watching my DVD a half Dozen times
« Reply #82 on: April 08, 2006, 07:19:18 pm »
As for who was more or less mature regarding their wives and kids and all that, I think neither were heroes nor villains. They both got married because they thought that was the appropriate thing to do -- again, according to the dictates of their culture. They both tried to do right by their kids. In fact, I've always found that a flaw in the post-divorce scene -- Ennis actually did the RIGHT THING by spending time with his daughters. Yes, he could have explained it better to Jack (who, after all, should not have driven all that way without notice). Yes, obviously he was paranoid about the white truck. But if this is supposed to be an instance of Ennis letting Jack down unfairly, Ennis should have had a lamer excuse. Had he ditched the daughters for the second month in a row in order to go off with Jack, I would criticize him for that myself.

Thanks for that, latjoreme!

Another thing that I've noticed about that post-divorce scene, and have been involved in a discussion about in the past, is that while Ennis is paranoid about the white truck, we don't seem to see any reaction to Jack's telling him that he's been asking people all over Riverton where Ennis is living. If I were Ennis, that would bother me a lot more than one pickup passing on the road.

Jeff
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: After watching my DVD a half Dozen times
« Reply #83 on: April 08, 2006, 07:58:13 pm »
And the hits just keep onnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn comin'!, Jeff

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(OT but I've always felt Jake was badly directed--yes, I said badly directed!--in the scene where Jack tries and fails to shoot the coyote. He isn't even trying to aim that rifle properly.)

Maybe that's because Jack is not really good with a gun?   :-*  It's just one more thing he might brag that he knows how to do but really doesn't?  Ang made sure Jake and Heath knew how to ride and rope and handle livestock and you're saying that Ang neglected something as basic as gun-handling when there are two scenes that are clearly meant to contrast the marksmanship of our two guys?  I don't think so.

Yes, Jack is supposed to be a bad marksman, but I'm stickin' to my guns on this one. When I was a teenager my dad and I shot targets. I was a lousy shot, but at least I know you have to raise a rifle higher than Jake does in order to sight what you're aiming at. It would have been possible for Jack to be a bad marksman and at least have it look like he's trying.-JW

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I think the evidence is slim to call Jack his son's primary care giver, but that might also hinge on how the term is defined, though without doubt he does show admirable concern for his son's well-being.

Agree.  But since the scene Jack has with Bobby playing riding him around the combine is an added scene and not in the story I think that that's what it means .  What adds to that is that the scene takes place not at their house, but at Newsome's Farm Equipment, that IMO implies Jack has time or wants to play with his son on the job, while Lureen does/can not.  It was a family business.  I imagine both Jack and Lureen spent a lot of time there.  Since Lureen was the owner, and Jack only a salesman, he could 'clock out' at 5 pm, go pick up Bobby from school/caretaker while Lureen stayed behind to shut down the business, tally the sales, balance the books, etc.

I think you're reading too much into the combine scene.-JW

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(Let's also not forget Ennis's concern that his little girls are being exposed to those slopbucket bikers, he suggests treating them to ice cream, and he promises to take them to the church picnic.)
 

Agree, but Ennis' fireworks scene was about his irritation and feelings of being trapped.  Notice that his 'little girls' exposed to such language are not of an age to even understand what is being said.  Heck, Jenny is practically an infant!  Ennis suggests treating them to ice cream, but parents often offer a treat when children have been sick as an incentive (plus it was also wonky that Ennis would buy ice cream for an infant and a two year old), but this is very very early in his relationship with Alma.  Before he even meets Jack again.  Ennis only promises to take the girls to the church picnic because they pleaded with him.  He apparently had not intended to go nor offered to take them before.

Ennis's own stated reason for his actions in the fireworks scene is the presence of his children. He's acting to protect his children. We have no way of knowing whether Ennis knew about the picnic, and in the end, he still agrees to take them because they want to go.-JW

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We don't know whose idea it was to go to that charity dinner dance, but I wouldn't be surprised if Lureen dragged Jack there, more out of concern for social position in the community than from any desire for a social life. To me he doesn't look too happy about being there.

True, but Jack still goes.  Could Alma have dragged Ennis?  If a man doesn't want to go somewhere, he doesn't go.  Like Ennis.  Jack went.  The Newsome's are a big, well known family business in Childress.  It would be expected that they're part of the local social set that does such things.  Jack would have known that from the beginning.

So what's your point? A man might not go, but a henpecked husband would, and Lureen clearly wears the pants in the family because she controls the money. You're more or less saying what I said, they were there because of their social position.-JW

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And running off to a hustler in Mexico just because he can't get laid by Ennis is the act of a spoiled, selfish brat. (Yes, I'm being very harsh here.)

Soooooo after five years of being faithful to Ennis, an unselfish healthy young man raging with hormones that cannot be assuaged by his wife would just go home and keep doing without because his lover tells him that's the way it's going to be?

Jack:  I'm not you!  I can't make it on a few high-atitiude fucks a year!

And he's not and Jack shouldn't be expected to be an Ennis and act like a monk because he can't get what he needs from his lover. 

Sounds practical and pragmatic, not selfish.  It also sounds sad.  Jack is not happy at all that he does it.

So you're condoning infidelity and prostitution because they're practical and pragmatic? There are other ways Jack could have obtained relief, known to all gay men, and probably to a lot of straight ones, too.-JW

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Running up to Wyoming unannounced just because he got word that Ennis's divorce had been finalized is not a very adult course of action.

Adult?  Very much so. 

Are you deliberately goading me? Running up to Wyoming that way without letting Ennis know he's coming is not the action of a responsible adult. It's the action of an impulsive child.-JW

I think we all have stories like this.  I wouldn't be the one to say they're not the actions of an adult. To me, Jack acts like a man in love.  Announced?  Sure.  Jack is implusive, takes chances.  That's who he is.

I don't have a story like that, and I am saying that's not the action of a responsible adult.-JW
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Offline twistedude

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Re: After watching my DVD a half Dozen times
« Reply #84 on: April 08, 2006, 08:23:22 pm »
I have YET to hear a good explanation for Ennis writing /phoning (in the short story) Jack about the divorce to begin with! They are not the long-distance communicating type, a date they were gtting together had already been set for next month, and as far as Ennis is concerned, his divorce makes no difference in his relationship with Jack. What would YOU do if you suddenly heard from your lover that he was getting a divorce?!  Did Ennis add: I sure will miss the girls. Doubt it. (even though it's true).

I have not, and maybe never will, watch my DVD half a dozen times, because the player is broken. I'm pretty good with a can opener, though (25 times).

Baseball has been full of some pretty cute guys..this one died at 34 in 1894 of alchoholism. Leans on that Pedestal like Jack leaning on a truck..... click to enlarge...
« Last Edit: April 08, 2006, 08:27:48 pm by julie01 »
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: After watching my DVD a half Dozen times
« Reply #85 on: April 08, 2006, 10:52:57 pm »
Jeff

Barb is right, we'll all have to agree to disagree.

Maybe that's because Jack is not really good with a gun?   It's just one more thing he might brag that he knows how to do but really doesn't?  Ang made sure Jake and Heath knew how to ride and rope and handle livestock and you're saying that Ang neglected something as basic as gun-handling when there are two scenes that are clearly meant to contrast the marksmanship of our two guys?  I don't think so.

Yes, Jack is supposed to be a bad marksman, but I'm stickin' to my guns on this one. When I was a teenager my dad and I shot targets. I was a lousy shot, but at least I know you have to raise a rifle higher than Jake does in order to sight what you're aiming at. It would have been possible for Jack to be a bad marksman and at least have it look like he's trying.

I shoot target pistol and used to shoot skeet.  With skeet, I had no poise, no technique, no sense of aiming or hand to eye coordination and I still managed to hit the clay pigeons from time to time.

Agree.  But since the scene Jack has with Bobby playing riding him around the combine is an added scene and not in the story I think that that's what it means .  What adds to that is that the scene takes place not at their house, but at Newsome's Farm Equipment, that IMO implies Jack has time or wants to play with his son on the job, while Lureen does/can not.  It was a family business.  I imagine both Jack and Lureen spent a lot of time there.  Since Lureen was the owner, and Jack only a salesman, he could 'clock out' at 5 pm, go pick up Bobby from school/caretaker while Lureen stayed behind to shut down the business, tally the sales, balance the books, etc.

I think you're reading too much into the combine scene.

Maybe or maybe not.  Ang didn't waste one inch of film in this movie.  Almost everything means something.  Why not a scene of Jack playing with his son in the backyard of their home, tossing a ball or playing with a dog?  In some living area in the home he shared with Lureen?  Show a real domestic scene like Ang did with Ennis and his family scenes?  Instead they show Jack playing with his son in a combine on the Newsome business parking lot.  I think it was intentional.

Agree, but Ennis' fireworks scene was about his irritation and feelings of being trapped.  Notice that his 'little girls' exposed to such language are not of an age to even understand what is being said.  Heck, Jenny is practically an infant!  Ennis suggests treating them to ice cream, but parents often offer a treat when children have been sick as an incentive (plus it was also wonky that Ennis would buy ice cream for an infant and a two year old), but this is very very early in his relationship with Alma.  Before he even meets Jack again.  Ennis only promises to take the girls to the church picnic because they pleaded with him.  He apparently had not intended to go nor offered to take them before.


Ennis's own stated reason for his actions in the fireworks scene is the presence of his children. He's acting to protect his children. We have no way of knowing whether Ennis knew about the picnic, and in the end, he still agrees to take them because they want to go.

Protect his children from what?  Bad language they didn't understand?  How is bad language from some smelly bikers who weren't even talking to Ennis and Alma a threat to his children so that they needed protection?  No, this scene was about Ennis losing it, not about Ennis 'the protector'.  If anything, it was a ironic shot, the icon of Americana, the cowboy color-drenched in red/white/blue fireworks standing up for his family, when his reaction is really an overreaction born of internal desperation and anger.  As for the picnic, he may or may not have known about it, but if he did know about it, he apparently had no desire to go until his children pleaded for HIM to take them.  Alma is perfectly capable of taking them, but it's Ennis they ask.

True, but Jack still goes.  Could Alma have dragged Ennis?  If a man doesn't want to go somewhere, he doesn't go.  Like Ennis.  Jack went.  The Newsome's are a big, well known family business in Childress.  It would be expected that they're part of the local social set that does such things.  Jack would have known that from the beginning.

So what's your point? A man might not go, but a henpecked husband would, and Lureen clearly wears the pants in the family because she controls the money. You're more or less saying what I said, they were there because of their social position.

Not really.  IMO Jack goes because it doesn't bother him TO go.  He doesn't have to be henpecked to be there.  Ennis, it bothers him to go, so he doesn't go.  Alma can't make him.  Jack doesn't seem to have a problem with it.  He doesn't look like he's having a good time, but it doesn't look like he really hates it either.  And he certainly knows how to dance - much better than he did in 1966.  You COULD improve your dancing skills by dancing around your living room at home, but likely he learned that while going out with Lureen - regularly.

Soooooo after five years of being faithful to Ennis, an unselfish healthy young man raging with hormones that cannot be assuaged by his wife would just go home and keep doing without because his lover tells him that's the way it's going to be?

Jack:  I'm not you!  I can't make it on a few high-atitiude fucks a year!

And he's not and Jack shouldn't be expected to be an Ennis and act like a monk because he can't get what he needs from his lover.

Sounds practical and pragmatic, not selfish.  It also sounds sad.  Jack is not happy at all that he does it.


So you're condoning infidelity

Of course.  One of the main storylines is a love story between two men who are married to other people.  They're both in loveless marriages, both in a time where divorce was a bad option for many.  We want them to be together.  We see how happy and free they are when they do get together.  Obviously aside from gathering the strength to divorce their spouses and getting together, infidelity is the only option for them TO be together.

and prostitution because they're practical and pragmatic?

You can't get more pragmatic than prostitution.  You pay for a specific thing and get it and the other person goes away.  No emotional ties, no muss, no fuss.

There are other ways Jack could have obtained relief, known to all gay men, and probably to a lot of straight ones, too.

Well, I'd be interested in hearing what you suggest because if one person is craving the touch of another person of the same sex as a lover, it seems that the only other option IS just more infidelity.

Running up to Wyoming unannounced just because he got word that Ennis's divorce had been finalized is not a very adult course of action.

Adult?  Very much so.


Are you deliberately goading me? Running up to Wyoming that way without letting Ennis know he's coming is not the action of a responsible adult. It's the action of an impulsive child.

Why would I do that?  It sounds like a man carried away by love.  Adults do that all the time.  Some do it to surprise their loved ones.  You  know, fun and romantic?  If you don't have a story like this, sure no problem, but that doesn't make people who don't have such stories more 'adult' or 'responsible'  than people who do.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2006, 11:37:44 pm by delalluvia »

Offline serious crayons

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Re: After watching my DVD a half Dozen times
« Reply #86 on: April 08, 2006, 11:35:57 pm »
Wow. What other film/story/novel/video game/graphic novel/ANYTHING would stand up to the level of scrutiny we've put this one to -- which is, let's face it, a demand that fictional characters act with the perfect logic, consistency and clear motivations that even few regular real-life humans exhibit -- and STILL come out looking pretty good? THAT, Friends, is great literature (or cinema, in this case).

But the divorce scene is an example of at least one instance where I think the demands of realistic motivation vs. dramatic usefulness get a bit blurry. Why would Ennis send Jack a card announcing his divorce? We can explain it any way we want, but chances are that in real life he might not, he'd just wait until he saw Jack next time, or if he did send a card he would add some other thing, like "see you in November." Why would Jack drive 1.400 miles without prior notice on the basis of a flimsy postcard? Again, chances are that in real life he might not. But if he does it makes for a good, sad, dramatic scene and an excuse for him to redline it to Mexico afterward, which sets up yet another good, sad, dramatic scene at the lake.

Now, I'm as willing as anybody to believe that Ennis and Jack are real-life, flesh and blood cowboys (hell, my entire fantasy life depends on it), but there are times you just have to cut them some slack. Are Ennis' daughters too young to eat ice cream? Is it necessary for Ennis to beat up the bikers when his daughters aren't old enough to understand their remarks? Whose idea was it to go to the charity dance or the church picnic? I love picking this movie apart and will gladly do it for hours every day, but I do think eventually you hit a wall where you just have to shrug and admit that some character or other did something or other for dramatic purposes.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2006, 11:39:27 pm by latjoreme »

Offline JCinNYC2006

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Re: After watching my DVD a half Dozen times
« Reply #87 on: April 09, 2006, 12:14:57 am »
You said it much better than I could Katherine.  It can be interesting to speculate on a character's motives based on actions or words.  But in the end, how we interpret things reflects our experiences and values as much as the characters. 

What I don't get is trying to see either Jack or Ennis as 'the more mature one'.  Just like real people, both do wonderful and questionable things.  That's why they do come across as flesh and blood and we can identify with them.  We've all done things that we regret or wish we'd done differently.  But it's easier to judge them then to identify with them.

Oh wait, that's another thread.

Juan
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: After watching my DVD a half Dozen times
« Reply #88 on: April 09, 2006, 03:39:27 am »
Juan, Katherine, thank you.

Jeff

Barb is right, we'll all have to agree to disagree.

Maybe that's because Jack is not really good with a gun?   It's just one more thing he might brag that he knows how to do but really doesn't?  Ang made sure Jake and Heath knew how to ride and rope and handle livestock and you're saying that Ang neglected something as basic as gun-handling when there are two scenes that are clearly meant to contrast the marksmanship of our two guys?  I don't think so.

Yes, Jack is supposed to be a bad marksman, but I'm stickin' to my guns on this one. When I was a teenager my dad and I shot targets. I was a lousy shot, but at least I know you have to raise a rifle higher than Jake does in order to sight what you're aiming at. It would have been possible for Jack to be a bad marksman and at least have it look like he's trying.

I shoot target pistol and used to shoot skeet.  With skeet, I had no poise, no technique, no sense of aiming or hand to eye coordination and I still managed to hit the clay pigeons from time to time.

Agree.  But since the scene Jack has with Bobby playing riding him around the combine is an added scene and not in the story I think that that's what it means .  What adds to that is that the scene takes place not at their house, but at Newsome's Farm Equipment, that IMO implies Jack has time or wants to play with his son on the job, while Lureen does/can not.  It was a family business.  I imagine both Jack and Lureen spent a lot of time there.  Since Lureen was the owner, and Jack only a salesman, he could 'clock out' at 5 pm, go pick up Bobby from school/caretaker while Lureen stayed behind to shut down the business, tally the sales, balance the books, etc.

I think you're reading too much into the combine scene.

Maybe or maybe not.  Ang didn't waste one inch of film in this movie.  Almost everything means something.  Why not a scene of Jack playing with his son in the backyard of their home, tossing a ball or playing with a dog?  In some living area in the home he shared with Lureen?  Show a real domestic scene like Ang did with Ennis and his family scenes?  Instead they show Jack playing with his son in a combine on the Newsome business parking lot.  I think it was intentional.

Agree, but Ennis' fireworks scene was about his irritation and feelings of being trapped.  Notice that his 'little girls' exposed to such language are not of an age to even understand what is being said.  Heck, Jenny is practically an infant!  Ennis suggests treating them to ice cream, but parents often offer a treat when children have been sick as an incentive (plus it was also wonky that Ennis would buy ice cream for an infant and a two year old), but this is very very early in his relationship with Alma.  Before he even meets Jack again.  Ennis only promises to take the girls to the church picnic because they pleaded with him.  He apparently had not intended to go nor offered to take them before.


Ennis's own stated reason for his actions in the fireworks scene is the presence of his children. He's acting to protect his children. We have no way of knowing whether Ennis knew about the picnic, and in the end, he still agrees to take them because they want to go.

Protect his children from what?  Bad language they didn't understand?  How is bad language from some smelly bikers who weren't even talking to Ennis and Alma a threat to his children so that they needed protection?  No, this scene was about Ennis losing it, not about Ennis 'the protector'.  If anything, it was a ironic shot, the icon of Americana, the cowboy color-drenched in red/white/blue fireworks standing up for his family, when his reaction is really an overreaction born of internal desperation and anger.  As for the picnic, he may or may not have known about it, but if he did know about it, he apparently had no desire to go until his children pleaded for HIM to take them.  Alma is perfectly capable of taking them, but it's Ennis they ask.[/i]

Do you seriously expect anyone to believe that a parent with two small children wouldn't object to the bikers' language just because the children are too young to understand it? Bullshit. Or, I'm glad you're not the other parent of my kids, if I had kids.

True, but Jack still goes.  Could Alma have dragged Ennis?  If a man doesn't want to go somewhere, he doesn't go.  Like Ennis.  Jack went.  The Newsome's are a big, well known family business in Childress.  It would be expected that they're part of the local social set that does such things.  Jack would have known that from the beginning.

So what's your point? A man might not go, but a henpecked husband would, and Lureen clearly wears the pants in the family because she controls the money. You're more or less saying what I said, they were there because of their social position.

Not really.  IMO Jack goes because it doesn't bother him TO go.  He doesn't have to be henpecked to be there.  Ennis, it bothers him to go, so he doesn't go.  Alma can't make him.  Jack doesn't seem to have a problem with it.  He doesn't look like he's having a good time, but it doesn't look like he really hates it either.  And he certainly knows how to dance - much better than he did in 1966.  You COULD improve your dancing skills by dancing around your living room at home, but likely he learned that while going out with Lureen - regularly.

Soooooo after five years of being faithful to Ennis, an unselfish healthy young man raging with hormones that cannot be assuaged by his wife would just go home and keep doing without because his lover tells him that's the way it's going to be?

Jack:  I'm not you!  I can't make it on a few high-atitiude fucks a year!

And he's not and Jack shouldn't be expected to be an Ennis and act like a monk because he can't get what he needs from his lover.

Sounds practical and pragmatic, not selfish.  It also sounds sad.  Jack is not happy at all that he does it.


So you're condoning infidelity

Of course.  One of the main storylines is a love story between two men who are married to other people.  They're both in loveless marriages, both in a time where divorce was a bad option for many.  We want them to be together.  We see how happy and free they are when they do get together.  Obviously aside from gathering the strength to divorce their spouses and getting together, infidelity is the only option for them TO be together.

You know damn well I'm not talking about fidelity to the legal spouses.

and prostitution because they're practical and pragmatic?

You can't get more pragmatic than prostitution.  You pay for a specific thing and get it and the other person goes away.  No emotional ties, no muss, no fuss.

There are other ways Jack could have obtained relief, known to all gay men, and probably to a lot of straight ones, too.

Well, I'd be interested in hearing what you suggest because if one person is craving the touch of another person of the same sex as a lover, it seems that the only other option IS just more infidelity.

Touch had nothing to do with it. Jack just wants to get fucked. Ever hear of a dildo? There, I've said it!

Running up to Wyoming unannounced just because he got word that Ennis's divorce had been finalized is not a very adult course of action.

Adult?  Very much so.


Not in my world.

Are you deliberately goading me? Running up to Wyoming that way without letting Ennis know he's coming is not the action of a responsible adult. It's the action of an impulsive child.

Why would I do that?  It sounds like a man carried away by love.  Adults do that all the time.  Some do it to surprise their loved ones.  You  know, fun and romantic?  If you don't have a story like this, sure no problem, but that doesn't make people who don't have such stories more 'adult' or 'responsible'  than people who do.

I don't deal in "fun" and "romantic." Anyone who shows up as Jack did, unannounced, is indeed behaving less responsibly and less like an adult.

I'm done here.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline ednbarby

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Re: After watching my DVD a half Dozen times
« Reply #89 on: April 09, 2006, 07:44:25 am »
You said it much better than I could Katherine.  It can be interesting to speculate on a character's motives based on actions or words.  But in the end, how we interpret things reflects our experiences and values as much as the characters. 

What I don't get is trying to see either Jack or Ennis as 'the more mature one'.  Just like real people, both do wonderful and questionable things.  That's why they do come across as flesh and blood and we can identify with them.  We've all done things that we regret or wish we'd done differently.  But it's easier to judge them then to identify with them.

Excellent points, Juan, especially that last one.  I went to bed with the same thought last night, though not laid out so eloquently in my mind.  These are very realistic characters, and as you said, that's why we relate so well to different aspects of both of them.  And real people fuck up.  Real people refuse to let go of love for years and years even when they know it's going nowhere and ruining their lives.  Real people overract when they feel they're being pushed into a corner.  Real people hurt the ones they love and the ones who love them without meaning to.  Real people are selfish sometimes.  Even the best of them.

So let's not quibble over 'oo killed 'oom.  Let's just enjoy the poetry of a story and characters that are as real as they come.
No more beans!