Saw the Hand Holdin'.

[sparkle_motion]

Call me a romantic, but I think Jack grabbed Ennis' arm out of excitement and wanting to feel connected to him.

[serious crayons]

Call me a romantic, but I think Jack grabbed Ennis' arm out of excitement and wanting to feel connected to him.

Well, I hate to start another debate that could probably grow to rival the sorry/s'alright conflict, but to my eyes it is Ennis grabbing Jack's arm.

[Brown Eyes]

Well, before the fist pounding, Jack is already reaching back with his right hand (I suppose reaching back for Ennis in some fashion).  Then after the fist pounding, it really does look like it's Ennis reaching for Jack's hand.  I like that reading better...  I think it's more romantic if Ennis is the one initiating that level of intimacy this early on.

And, in regards to the "I ain't no queer" problem...  neither one of them has said this to the other yet.  It might not have been a concern of Jack's at this point.  And, here's a moment (obviously) when that kind of "cover" statement just flies out the window anyway.  In my reading of the film (and book) the extreme pleasure that they take in each other physically (AND their intense emotional connections during sex - especially the 2nd tent scene) are meant to show us that the "I ain't no queer" is just a heartbreaking fib.  An aspect of being in the closet.  Ennis has to work for 20 years to get those words out of his head... but I think when he's physically with Jack, that statement almost has no meaning/ power.

[Sheyne]

I SAW IT!! I SAW IT!! I SAW IT!!! YAY!! 

Oh god, how much hotter is this scene now??!?!?!!? Phwoarrrr...

*fans self*

Finally got to download that You Tube clip - 4 nights in 20 years, its a great clip and the tent scene is clear enough and light enough to catch the hands.  And now that I have frame-by-framed it all afternoon, I have to venture that Ennis's hand is on "lil Jack".  Cause it looks like he is reaching down there the whole time, from the initial penetration to the climax.  This is quite obvious from the very quick flash before Jack grabs Ennis's hand with BOTH of his hands.  Its clear as a bell where Ennis's hand is ...

*fans self again*

Gotta go watch it again, sorry!!!   

[Daniel]

Yes, I went to see it for the last time yesterday in the theatre... Best 50 cents I ever spent...

There was a family in there with young children, and I mean young. I'm thinking like, "Don't you people realize this is rated R for a reason?" Anyway, I warned them shortly before the first tent scene that it might not be appropriate for the younger children, so the mom led the kids out just before it then came back.

The parents also left during the first tent scene, rather noisily I might add, so I managed to miss the hand holding...

The DVD will be arriving today (one of them anyway, I'm still looking for a British DVD in Region 1 Format.. lol, and where the heck is my poster?)

I also didn't see Ennis mouth "I love you" when he holds the two shirts. He just seemed to be breathing heavily, open mouthed, as if in disbelief and painful memory.

Speaking of the two shirts, this has probably already been pointed out, but I find it strangely compelling that the blood stains were at the wrist, just where the nails would have been driven in during the Roman crucifixion. Granted they're not on both sleeves, but it was just some strange thing I wanted to point out.

[j.U.d.E.]

Dam*! Still haven't seen the hand holding! Guess I'll have to download the youtube clip - "4 nights in 20 years", but I'm at work.. oh uh..

~ j U d E

[ednbarby]

Well, before the fist pounding, Jack is already reaching back with his right hand (I suppose reaching back for Ennis in some fashion).  Then after the fist pounding, it really does look like it's Ennis reaching for Jack's hand.  I like that reading better...  I think it's more romantic if Ennis is the one initiating that level of intimacy this early on.

And, in regards to the "I ain't no queer" problem...  neither one of them has said this to the other yet.  It might not have been a concern of Jack's at this point.  And, here's a moment (obviously) when that kind of "cover" statement just flies out the window anyway.  In my reading of the film (and book) the extreme pleasure that they take in each other physically (AND their intense emotional connections during sex - especially the 2nd tent scene) are meant to show us that the "I ain't no queer" is just a heartbreaking fib.  An aspect of being in the closet.  Ennis has to work for 20 years to get those words out of his head... but I think when he's physically with Jack, that statement almost has no meaning/ power.

:::pounding desk:::  YES, YES, YES!!!  You've nailed it, Amanda.  As usual.   

[serious crayons]

Well, before the fist pounding, Jack is already reaching back with his right hand (I suppose reaching back for Ennis in some fashion).  Then after the fist pounding, it really does look like it's Ennis reaching for Jack's hand.  I like that reading better...  I think it's more romantic if Ennis is the one initiating that level of intimacy this early on.

And, in regards to the "I ain't no queer" problem...  neither one of them has said this to the other yet.  It might not have been a concern of Jack's at this point.  And, here's a moment (obviously) when that kind of "cover" statement just flies out the window anyway.  In my reading of the film (and book) the extreme pleasure that they take in each other physically (AND their intense emotional connections during sex - especially the 2nd tent scene) are meant to show us that the "I ain't no queer" is just a heartbreaking fib.  An aspect of being in the closet.  Ennis has to work for 20 years to get those words out of his head... but I think when he's physically with Jack, that statement almost has no meaning/ power.

:::pounding desk:::  YES, YES, YES!!!  You've nailed it, Amanda.  As usual.   

(Reaching to hold Barb's hand ...) Yes, I agree too, Amanda! I don't think Jack really means it in the first place; he just says it to reassure Ennis. As for Ennis, I think that when he says "queer," he is talking about a mix of characteristics he associates with the term that he is trying to distinguish in his own mind from what they're doing. But I think the effort causes some cognitive dissonance.

And I like the "Ennis grabs Jack's hand" interpretation better, too. Suggests he is feeling an emotional connection in addition to a physical one.

[Brown Eyes]

Awww... thanks ednbarby!    And, also thanks latjoreme! 

My favorite thing about Ennis and the hand-holding in the first tent scene (and the way he clings- really rather sweetly- to Jack's head while they're both kneeling up) is that throughout the movie the primary way that Ennis expresses love/affection is physically.  And so here in their first encounter, he's already displaying love and concern (in addition to the explosive sexual release).  He just radiates love in the 2nd tent scene, in the flashback, reunion kiss, etc... and in all those instances the expression of love is physical.  It goes without saying that Ennis is more comfortable with physical things than with verbal things.  Also, in the motel... when Jack says "Brokeback got us good" Ennis replies by stroking Jack's arm instead of saying anything out loud...  It's nice to be able to see the first tent scene in a more complex way too.

Yeah, I'm not sure that Ennis quite knows what he means exactly by the word "queer" or which aspects of that idea he's trying to dissociate from. Lots of confusion for him here. In any case, I think for both Jack and Ennis, saying "I ain't no queer" is simply a tragic form of denial.  Jack moves on from this denial relatively easily but Ennis keeps struggling with it until the end... thus causing all that time to be lost in their relationship (I know I keep saying this in different threads... but it breaks my heart ).

[Daniel]

I have a different interpretation of "I ain't queer." I think Ennis is saying that he doesn't have feelings for men in that way, in that he does not live sexually oriented towards men. I personally believe that attraction occurs on some deeper, spiritual level and has little to do with the way our bodies seem to react to the presence of others nearby. But, then again, perhaps that is the way I am, and it is an intimately personal experience.

In other words, "I'm not homosexual, but I am attracted to you." perhaps. Attraction has always been in my philosophy a deeply personal effect that adds weight and meaning to the universe particularly because it is so individualized and isolated from other experiences of attraction.

Just some thoughts I thought I'd thrown out.