Author Topic: Would Jack have quit Ennis?  (Read 14575 times)

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2008, 08:35:05 am »
I think it would have kept going basically the same - rare meetups that punctuated otherwise excruciating alone loneliness for Ennis, and Mexico/Randall-type loneliness for Jack.



Offline Artiste

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2008, 08:57:38 am »
Merci Elle !

That might be... as you say !

May I disagree ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline Brokeback_Dev

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2008, 09:07:00 am »
I'm not so optomistic that I think Ennis would change or come around someday.   But for sure I dont think Jack could ever quit Ennis.  The relationship would go on like it had for 20 years, but with fewer and fewer meetings. Also, there is the off chance that Randall and Jack would have moved up to Lightning Flat and whip the old ranch into shape as OMT mentioned to Ennis when Ennis went up to get Jack's ashes. :'(
Either way Jack didnt know how to quit Ennis.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2008, 09:29:26 am »
Merci brokeback dev !

You say:     I'm not so optomistic that I think Ennis would change or come around someday.   But for sure I dont think Jack could ever quit Ennis.  The relationship would go on like it had for 20 years, but with fewer and fewer meetings. Also, there is the off chance that Randall and Jack would have moved up to Lightning Flat and whip the old ranch into shape as OMT mentioned to Ennis when Ennis went up to get Jack's ashes.
Either way Jack didnt know how to quit Ennis.       

.......

And may I say or hope:
1- That Ennis was changing and did come around, since he went to see Jack's parents, etc.;

2- Jack would never quit Ennis, and Ennis too would and did not let go of Jack as we see that he hugs that shirt in his trailer as the end of the movie;

3- Since the relationship went on  for 20 years, I think that more and more meetings would have occured, yes since the bond and understand were enriching  at each meeting;

4- and, to me,  Randall did not and would not have been accepted by Jack... on the long run !

Food for thought ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline souxi

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2008, 09:43:12 am »
My own personal opinion is, that they would have met up in November as planned, and Jack would have broken things off with Ennis. Ennis would have started drinking heavily and gradually made himself ill. I think it would have taken Jack leaving him to make him realise what they had, and that he DID love him and I think he,d have packed up, moved out and followed Jack to Texas and tried to make a go of things. As happend in Somebody New. That is exactly how I think things would have worked out, IMO. 

Offline Lynne

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2008, 01:02:43 pm »
Elle - I like the phrase you used.

"Mexico/Randall-type loneliness"

So true and so tragic.
"Laß sein. Laß sein."

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2008, 04:52:43 pm »
This is a great question!  I went with an optimistic answer here and chose the "Ennis was making progress..." option.  Well, because I think it's true.  I think Ennis was making progress and we're given many tiny, subtle clues to this even before Ennis received the deceased postcard.  I don't think they would have been able to jump right into living together no matter what.  I do think an effort would be made to see each other more.  Maybe some baby steps towards progress would have been made.  I don't believe that Jack would have ever really been able to "quit" Ennis.  I think his statement at the lake makes it clear that Jack understands himself well enough to know that he wouldn't be able to leave Ennis after 20 years.  He really doesn't know how to quit him.


This is very interesting to reconsider this question over a year following this post I made in this thread way-back-when.  In thinking about this again, I still believe most of what I wrote back then.

I still stand by the idea that Ennis was making progress (at a snail's pace) in certain ways in terms of understanding and accepting his relationship with Jack.  We see that, clearly, Jack's death was a shock strong enough to rattle Ennis into doing all sorts of things that he would have been too afraid to do prior to Jack's death (primarily driving all the way to Lightning Flat to meet Jack's parents... and even gathering his courage to call Lureen, etc.).  I wonder if the lake-side fight alone was enough to rattle Ennis to the degree that he really would have tried harder to make things better with Jack.

I do think it's extremely significant that Ennis is the one who sent the final postcard.  Clearly the thought of losing Jack is tremendously profound to Ennis.  We see this in his reactions to the conversation by the lake when he begins to worry about a break-up and obviously we see what happens in the circumstance where he does lose Jack.   So, maybe if Jack had lived he really would have tried harder.  I think Jack's hints and not-so-subtle threats about breaking up during the argument really could have had a major impact on Ennis's behavior and determination to fix things.

One of the last things we hear Ennis saying to Jack is "I can't stand this anymore"... So, according to Ennis's own motto "if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it"... this seems to suggest that once you can't stand something anymore you do the opposite and try to fix it.  There's no exit clause in his motto.  If you can't stand something you still don't quit it.

As far as Jack goes, I think he's self-aware enough to know that he's not capable of breaking up with Ennis.  I think that's why he adds the conditional "wish" to "I wish I knew how to quit you."  I don't think he has the will power to resist Ennis and I think he knows that.  If he had lived, I think he would have worked with Ennis to try to make things better.  Like I said in my post a year ago, I think progress would have been in baby-steps.  Mostly I think things would have stayed the same... at least in the short term. 

But, again, I think the argument alone... and airing all the frustrations and some of the secrets... was enough to be a catalyst for some measure of change.


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Offline Kerry

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2008, 09:28:37 am »

I voted, "Ennis was making progress, he was the one who initiated the next postcard.  Had Jack lived, Ennis would have tried to be with him more, and he would eventually have made a home with Jack."

Jack and Ennis are star-crossed lovers. They're meant for each other. Their names are written in the stars. Only death has the power to separate them.  :'(
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Offline Brokeback_Dev

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2008, 10:01:03 am »
Merci brokeback dev !

You say:     I'm not so optomistic that I think Ennis would change or come around someday.   But for sure I dont think Jack could ever quit Ennis.  The relationship would go on like it had for 20 years, but with fewer and fewer meetings. Also, there is the off chance that Randall and Jack would have moved up to Lightning Flat and whip the old ranch into shape as OMT mentioned to Ennis when Ennis went up to get Jack's ashes.
Either way Jack didnt know how to quit Ennis.       

.......

And may I say or hope:
1- That Ennis was changing and did come around, since he went to see Jack's parents, etc.;

2- Jack would never quit Ennis, and Ennis too would and did not let go of Jack as we see that he hugs that shirt in his trailer as the end of the movie;

3- Since the relationship went on  for 20 years, I think that more and more meetings would have occured, yes since the bond and understand were enriching  at each meeting;

4- and, to me,  Randall did not and would not have been accepted by Jack... on the long run !

Food for thought ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

I like your thinking here Artiste.  After reading your posts and all the posts to follow seems everyone is a bit more optomistic.. Now I am too Especially because Ennis did write that post card.  He did go up to Lightning Flat to retreive Jack's ashes and because he he hugged those the two shirts.  But Especially because at the end of this very sad movie he opened his closet in his lonely sparse trailer and said "Jack I swear"  What did he mean?  Jack I swear I love you.  Why did you go off and get killed. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

Offline optom3

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2008, 10:31:02 am »
This is very interesting to reconsider this question over a year following this post I made in this thread way-back-when.  In thinking about this again, I still believe most of what I wrote back then.

I still stand by the idea that Ennis was making progress (at a snail's pace) in certain ways in terms of understanding and accepting his relationship with Jack.  We see that, clearly, Jack's death was a shock strong enough to rattle Ennis into doing all sorts of things that he would have been too afraid to do prior to Jack's death (primarily driving all the way to Lightning Flat to meet Jack's parents... and even gathering his courage to call Lureen, etc.).  I wonder if the lake-side fight alone was enough to rattle Ennis to the degree that he really would have tried harder to make things better with Jack.

I do think it's extremely significant that Ennis is the one who sent the final postcard.  Clearly the thought of losing Jack is tremendously profound to Ennis.  We see this in his reactions to the conversation by the lake when he begins to worry about a break-up and obviously we see what happens in the circumstance where he does lose Jack.   So, maybe if Jack had lived he really would have tried harder.  I think Jack's hints and not-so-subtle threats about breaking up during the argument really could have had a major impact on Ennis's behavior and determination to fix things.

One of the last things we hear Ennis saying to Jack is "I can't stand this anymore"... So, according to Ennis's own motto "if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it"... this seems to suggest that once you can't stand something anymore you do the opposite and try to fix it.  There's no exit clause in his motto.  If you can't stand something you still don't quit it.

As far as Jack goes, I think he's self-aware enough to know that he's not capable of breaking up with Ennis.  I think that's why he adds the conditional "wish" to "I wish I knew how to quit you."  I don't think he has the will power to resist Ennis and I think he knows that.  If he had lived, I think he would have worked with Ennis to try to make things better.  Like I said in my post a year ago, I think progress would have been in baby-steps.  Mostly I think things would have stayed the same... at least in the short term. 

But, again, I think the argument alone... and airing all the frustrations and some of the secrets... was enough to be a catalyst for some measure of change.




The point you make about Ennis when he says, I can't hardly stand it, is interesting, because as you say ,in his own words if you can't stand something you have to fix it.
Also in the S.S Jack is not sure whether Ennis collapsing, is a heart attack or rage.It is clear that the scene is a culmination of 20 years of things glossed over and never spoken about.
Right at the end of that scene in the SS Jack is thinking ,let be, let be.Directly after he remembers the dozy embrace which so captivates him.So I would guess he is now thinking anything is better than no Ennis.Perhaps the thought that briefly crosses his mind that Ennis has had a heart attack,shocks him back, to once again realising how deep and desperate is his love for him, hence the let be let be.Don't rock the boat and risk loosing him completely.

I certainly think they would have continued together.I don't think Jack, even if he had tried with Randall would have continued.
There is no one in his heart who can replace Ennis.
In real life when we try to do that,the person we use as a substitute generally just reminds us even more of the person we have lost, or given up on.
I wish I could believe that they would eventually moved in together,I am just not sure. In my mind this is where fact and fiction become joined. Even now parts of America are still so homophobic,I struggle to see them together under one roof.
If they had gone down that route, they sure as hell would have to have moved states, to a more liberal one.The problem there is the more liberal states would not have provided Ennis with any work that he enjoyed,and I can't see him living off Jack's money. That would just be a step too far.