Author Topic: Post-Divorce Scene  (Read 13235 times)

Offline Brown Eyes

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Post-Divorce Scene
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2007, 10:57:52 pm »
Heya Jeff and Marge,

This is a really interesting discussion.  This scene is a major "tipping point" in Jack's perception of the relationship I think.  I think his immediate and continual urge for a physical relationship with Ennis is almost a given and a major driving factor behind the relationship lasting as long as it did (the physical chemistry between both of them... is something I think the filmmakers want the audience to see as a huge aspect of their relationship).  I think this physical need is one reason that Jack actually comes back after this rejection (and his parting phrase of "see you next month then").  The need for the sexual contact runs through all of this (and may seems sort of frivolous, but really is a truly important thing on a serious level).  But, Marge, you're absolutely right that I think this is the time that Jack really does begin to question what's behind the sex.  Is there more to their connection than brief encounters?  What is Ennis willing to do for him? He may not forumulate the question exactly, but he's probably sort of wondering if the sex is tied to love or if it's just sex.  I'm sure when he drives away crying these are the major things he's worrying about.  He was rebuffed once in the "prayer of thanks" camping trip after his somewhat premature offer of the cow and calf operation idea.  But, he was willing to give Ennis's plan a try.  This second and pretty harsh rejection probably carries more of a sting because of the amount of time that's already been committed and because he realizes that it wasn't just Ennis's marriage that was holding Ennis back.  That excuse/ obstacle is now gone and Ennis is still unable to make a move towards something more permanent with Jack (probably the point of the white truck... that one white truck is enough for Jack to see just how scared Ennis still is of the opinions of passers-by).

I'm discussing this in a lopsided, Jack-centric way at the moment.  I realize this.  Trying to see this whole scene and scenario from Ennis's point of view and with his very specific concerns and fears in mind is a tricky business.  Espeically when all of those concerns and fears are weighted with the depth of feeling that we know Ennis feels for Jack.  The question of guilt and I think Heath's attempt to physically portray Ennis's conflict and sense of guilt here is equally interesting.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Post-Divorce Scene
« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2007, 10:36:31 am »
The need for the sexual contact runs through all of this (and may seems sort of frivolous, but really is a truly important thing on a serious level).

Yes, it is important with respect to these guys. Annie tells us that, years on years, the heat and brilliance of their sexual couplings never diminish. (The cynic in me adds, "Sure, because they only did it a couple of times a year.")

Tell you what, when I look back over all I wrote two nights ago, I'm not happy. I spilled a lot of electronic ink and yet I don't think I really conveyed what upset me, that if I didn't know what was "really going on" in the post-divorce visit, it would be possible to see all this as far less significant than it really is.  :-\
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline BBM-Cat

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Post-Divorce Scene
« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2007, 06:47:10 pm »
Yes, it is important with respect to these guys. Annie tells us that, years on years, the heat and brilliance of their sexual couplings never diminish. (The cynic in me adds, "Sure, because they only did it a couple of times a year.")

Tell you what, when I look back over all I wrote two nights ago, I'm not happy. I spilled a lot of electronic ink and yet I don't think I really conveyed what upset me, that if I didn't know what was "really going on" in the post-divorce visit, it would be possible to see all this as far less significant than it really is.  :-\

I don't want to overfocus on this one idea in such a vastly important topic, but it is actually that very thought that has been bothering me for awhile, and maybe it has been addressed elsewhere - but yeah, Jack & Ennis spent only a few times together each year - they were in a chronic honeymoon phase. I believe somewhat in the "ages and stages" theories of human development which have also been aptly applied to human relationships. Following this line of thought, Jack and Ennis did not ever have the opportunity to 'nest' or to really 'blend' their lives together. The real irony is that while they tried to keep their married lives separate from their affair (I'm using that term loosely here) , in the end it just could not be done - everything about their lives impinged on the other's.

So was their relationship only all about sex? No, certainly not. I guess what I'm trying to say is that ultimately though, their relationship could not be sustained at the "honeymoon level", yet it could neither grow in more integrated directions.
Six-word Stories:  ~Jack: Lightning Flat, lightning love, flat denied   ~Ennis: Open space: flat tire, tire iron?

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Post-Divorce Scene
« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2007, 07:02:18 pm »
I don't want to overfocus on this one idea in such a vastly important topic, but it is actually that very thought that has been bothering me for awhile, and maybe it has been addressed elsewhere - but yeah, Jack & Ennis spent only a few times together each year - they were in a chronic honeymoon phase. I believe somewhat in the "ages and stages" theories of human development which have also been aptly applied to human relationships. Following this line of thought, Jack and Ennis did not ever have the opportunity to 'nest' or to really 'blend' their lives together. The real irony is that while they tried to keep their married lives separate from their affair (I'm using that term loosely here) , in the end it just could not be done - everything about their lives impinged on the other's.

So was their relationship only all about sex? No, certainly not. I guess what I'm trying to say is that ultimately though, their relationship could not be sustained at the "honeymoon level", yet it could neither grow in more integrated directions.

Nothing I can really add, just to say, astute observation.

And I like the way you put it: "They were in a chronic honeymoon phase."  :D
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Cameron

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Post-Divorce Scene
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2007, 07:20:57 pm »
I have been wondering about it since i read the last few messages and Jeff's question .  And I started wondering, and I know that some of you will strongly disagree with me, wasn't the whole relationship much more about sex for Jack then for Ennis?  I do agree with  the original question here, is that why Jack went straight to Mexico after the post divorce meeting.  What I still cannot get about that scene is why couldn't Jack have just waited around until Ennis brought the girls back home to Alma?  I mean to me it just seemed like Ennis was explaining that he had the girls that weekend so he couldn't go off with Jack at that moment. I don't really understand what he expecting,  Ennis to just leave the girls at his shack and run off with Jack?  The fact that he had this reaction and then goes to Mexico makes me think it was much more so about the sex for Jack than for Ennis.

I think for Ennis it was about everything, after all he was not even capable of having any kind of meaningful or successful life without Jack, but Jack was.

Also the line that gets me about this whole subject is " You have no idea how bad it gets, I'm not like you, I can't get by on a couple of high altitude f**ks a couple of times  a year."  So is that all Jack was thinking of, he wanted more high altitude meetings a year to have sex?

And I think the ironic thing to this line was Ennis did know how bad it gets, it was much much worse for him, and not just about the sex

(yes, I admit I do see it all from Ennis's side)



Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Post-Divorce Scene
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2007, 07:31:32 pm »
I have been wondering about it since i read the last few messages and Jeff's question .  And I started wondering, and I know that some of you will strongly disagree with me, wasn't the whole relationship much more about sex for Jack then for Ennis?  I do agree with  the original question here, is that why Jack went straight to Mexico after the post divorce meeting.  What I still cannot get about that scene is why couldn't Jack have just waited around until Ennis brought the girls back home to Alma?

Exactly! That's a very good question, and you aren't the first to ask it, and I think it's just not answered in the film. Or, why couldn't he go visit his folks up in Lightning Flat for a week and come back the next weekend, when, presumably, Ennis didn't have the girls? We just don't know.  ???

Quote
I mean to me it just seemed like Ennis was explaining that he had the girls that weekend so he couldn't go off with Jack at that moment. I don't really understand what he expecting,  Ennis to just leave the girls at his shack and run off with Jack?  The fact that he had this reaction and then goes to Mexico makes me think it was much more so about the sex for Jack than for Ennis.

I think for Ennis it was about everything, after all he was not even capable of having any kind of meaningful or successful life without Jack, but Jack was.

Also the line that gets me about this whole subject is " You have no idea how bad it gets, I'm not like you, I can't get by on a couple of high altitude f**ks a couple of times  a year."  So is that all Jack was thinking of, he wanted more high altitude meetings a year to have sex?

Well, I think the fact that Jack kept the shirts all those years indicates that it is more than just about sex for him, but I also think he has a greater need for the sex than Ennis does.

Quote
And I think the ironic thing to this line was Ennis did know how bad it gets, it was much much worse for him, and not just about the sex

(yes, I admit I do see it all from Ennis's side)

Nothing wrong with that. I identify more with Ennis, myself.  :)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Cameron

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Post-Divorce Scene
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2007, 08:20:05 pm »

Well, I think the fact that Jack kept the shirts all those years indicates that it is more than just about sex for him, but I also think he has a greater need for the sex than Ennis does.


Yes, it is true about the shirts.  I don't think that it is just about the sex for Jack,  but also the shirts were from the first summer, when Jack was very young and totally infatuated with Ennis.  I really do thing that over all the years Jack was able to develop something of a life without Ennis, and it did somehow become more about the sex to him.  In fact I tend to think that he even was able to maintain an affectionate and friendly partnership with Lureen, something Ennis could not do with either Alma or Cassie, and so over the years the sex was more and more important because he didn't need Ennis as much emotionally.

For Ennis, I really think Jack was everything.  However until I focused on TS 1 the past few days I didn't really think that the sex was all that important for him, but then I realized that actually it was very very important.

But to me Ennis is so incredibly tragic because he really was 'nowwhere and nothing' because he really was the one who truly needed Jack, for everything, emotionally and sexually, and he never ever had any kind of life because of Jack.

OK now that I am started on this, I think that the underlying story and the tragedy of everything is that Jack was never ever able to see and understand Ennis's feelings and needs and desperation for him, for Jack it was just what he wanted and needed.

To me Ennis's was screaming out the truth to Jack, at least in ways that he could, but Jack didn't get it.

I don't think that it was that Ennis never could commit,  I think that Jack never truly understood.

Sorry all Jack fans, its just what I believe, and yes I think it is mostly about the sex for him.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2007, 08:23:30 pm by marlb42 »



Offline serious crayons

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Post-Divorce Scene
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2007, 08:25:51 pm »
What I still cannot get about that scene is why couldn't Jack have just waited around until Ennis brought the girls back home to Alma?

Exactly! That's a very good question, and you aren't the first to ask it, and I think it's just not answered in the film. Or, why couldn't he go visit his folks up in Lightning Flat for a week and come back the next weekend, when, presumably, Ennis didn't have the girls? We just don't know.  ???

The girls are a legitimate reason for Ennis to turn Jack down at that moment. But even without them, Ennis would have turned down what Jack had in mind -- i.e., living together. Jack interpreted the postcard about the divorce to mean that, with Alma out of the way, Ennis was ready for a little cow-and-calf operation. That's as much a reason he was all happy driving to see Ennis as he was about anticipating sex.

During their interaction outside the truck, Jack realized that he'd made a mistake -- Ennis was never going to want to live with him. Maybe one reason is that Ennis himself doesn't suggest that Jack wait around and come back later. But the bigger reason is the way Ennis watches the white pickup truck go past. If Ennis can't even feel safe talking to Jack in the driveway, how is he ever going to agree to live in the same house? And Jack, following Ennis' gaze and seeing his expression, gets the picture.

When he decides to redline it to Mexico, he's disappointed and embittered. He has a "Well, I'll show him!" kind of attitude. But you can tell by the look on his face as he starts down Prostitute Street that he's got mixed feelings, at best, about resorting to that. Not exactly the look he had when singing "King of the Road," hunh? That's another difference, IMO, between love and sex.

Oh, marlb42, your post came in while I was writing this. I'll post this first, then see if I have a response to your new post.

Offline Cameron

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Post-Divorce Scene
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2007, 08:39:09 pm »
During their interaction outside the truck, Jack realized that he'd made a mistake -- Ennis was never going to want to live with him. Maybe one reason is that Ennis himself doesn't suggest that Jack wait around and come back later. But the bigger reason is the way Ennis watches the white pickup truck go past. If Ennis can't even feel safe talking to Jack in the driveway, how is he ever going to agree to live in the same house? And Jack, following Ennis' gaze and seeing his expression, gets the picture.

When he decides to redline it to Mexico, he's disappointed and embittered. He has a "Well, I'll show him!" kind of attitude. But you can tell by the look on his face as he starts down Prostitute Street that he's got mixed feelings, at best, about resorting to that. Not exactly the look he had when singing "King of the Road," hunh? That's another difference, IMO, between love and sex.

Hi Katherine/latjorene,

I answer yours, mine went in a different direction.  I actually do agree with you totally, I do, but I still do see it differently.  I mean what I cannot understand, if Jack thought the divorce postcard was to telll Jack that they can finally really be together, well I don't really understand why Jack would really think this.  I understand that this is what he wanted the postcard about the divorce to mean, but if he really did understand Ennis he would have known that it couldn't mean that.

I guess that goes along with my view that Jack didn't really understand Ennis, after all Ennis was upset at the divorce, and maybe the postcard was just Ennis trying to tell Jack that he needed him.

Yes, I do agree that going off to Mexico was not without a lot of misgivings, and obviously it was not JUST about the sex with Ennis, but I still think that Jack never understood the realy meanings of what Ennis was always trying to tell him, even without direct words.



Offline Brown Eyes

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Post-Divorce Scene
« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2007, 08:41:58 pm »
Jeff, I think you point about your change in perception of this scene is very interesting.  And, it is an interesting exercise to try to see it with fresh eyes.  But, I also think this observation relates to what many of us have been saying for a long time, which is that this movie takes on quite a lot of meaning (different meaning, more subtle meaning, questions become more exposed, etc.) the more it's watched and the more one ponders the movie.  I know people who upon first viewing of the film didn't even think to question how Jack died.  It didn't even cross their minds to question what we're shown on screen (as a representation of Ennis's fears and imagination).  It took them either a second or third viewing or it took a Brokie (  :D ) to point out the question that should arise over that topic.


marlb42, to comment on just one of your (very good!) observations, I think sex very well may have been more important to Jack.  I think Jack acknowledges this in the late argument by the lake when he yells "I'm not you, I can't make it... [etc., etc., etc.].  I think the physical part of their relationship is (of course) important to them both, but maybe in a different way to each of them. 


When he decides to redline it to Mexico, he's disappointed and embittered. He has a "Well, I'll show him!" kind of attitude. But you can tell by the look on his face as he starts down Prostitute Street that he's got mixed feelings, at best, about resorting to that. Not exactly the look he had when singing "King of the Road," hunh? That's another difference, IMO, between love and sex.

Yup, I totally agree that Jack left right away after his encounter with Ennis and headed to Mexico (what I perceive to be quite a spontaneous decision) out of anger and frustration.  I don't think Jack wanted to be around Ennis while he was as upset as he was either.  He probably wouldn't want Ennis to see him cry or to expose how raw his nerves were at that juncture to Ennis.
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie