Post-Divorce Scene

[Jeff Wrangler]

Yes, it is true about the shirts.  I don't think that it is just about the sex for Jack,  but also the shirts were from the first summer, when Jack was very young and totally infatuated with Ennis.

This reminds me of something else that came out of that last viewing for me. Figuratively, it was like I saw this line connecting Jack's angry explosion, "All we got is Brokeback Mountain, everything built on that!" with Lureen's telling Ennis, "Well, he said (Brokeback Mountain) was his favorite place," to the shirts in the closet. And then I thought, Each in their own way, neither Jack nor Ennis ever was able to move on from Brokeback Mountain.   

[Brown Eyes]

Each in their own way, neither Jack nor Ennis ever was able to move on from Brokeback Mountain.   

I completely agree with this.  Right on Jeff!

I mean, Jack requested that his ashes be scattered on Brokeback and Ennis was on quite a mission there towards the end of the film to try his hardest to bring Jack's ashes back to Brokeback (obviously unsuccessfully).  So even after Jack's dead they're both still desperate to get back to Brokeback and neither is successful.

 

[nakymaton]

I mean, Jack requested that his ashes be scattered on Brokeback and Ennis was on quite a mission there towards the end of the film to try his hardest to bring Jack's ashes back to Brokeback (obviously unsuccessfully).  So even after Jack's dead they're both still desperate to get back to Brokeback and neither is successful.

And Ennis's shrine includes the shirts (from the mountain) and a postcard showing a picture of the mountain. Both of them idealized that summer.

Here are a couple of thoughts about Jack wanting sex:

1) Is it possible that Jack's focus on sex was, I don't know, a different sort of reaction to being raised homophobic than Ennis's was? Could Jack accept the need for sex and focus on that, while trying to deny the need for love?

2) A Jack who is focused on sex is more like story-Jack than we usually give movie-Jack credit for being. (Story-Jack, after all, lies from the motel scene on about the fact that he's been "riding more than bulls." In the story, it's easy to believe that Jack is just one rather horny wanna-be bullrider, at least until we learn about Jack's memory of the dozy embrace, and then about the drive for nothing, and then about the shirts.)

3)

When he decides to redline it to Mexico, he's disappointed and embittered. He has a "Well, I'll show him!" kind of attitude. But you can tell by the look on his face as he starts down Prostitute Street that he's got mixed feelings, at best, about resorting to that. Not exactly the look he had when singing "King of the Road," hunh? That's another difference, IMO, between love and sex.

Jack also appears to have mixed feelings when Randall propositions him. Maybe by that time it has come to simply be about sex, but something has gone out of Jack by that point in his life. If the mountain was just about sex, then Jack is a lot less excited about sex in his late 30's than he was at 19. (Umm, I guess I've heard that men settle down a bit after their late teens, so maybe this is true. )

I think both of the men are very mixed up, in their own ways. On the surface, Jack appears to be less conflicted, but I don't know. It may be that he's just masking things better than Ennis can.

[Jeff Wrangler]

(Umm, I guess I've heard that men settle down a bit after their late teens, so maybe this is true. )

It happens. ...

But let's not overlook the possibility that Jack, possibly in both film and story, is committing the error made by countless men and women, gay and straight: That quest for sex is really masking the quest for love.

Remember, in the story, Annie tells us how much the memory of the dozy embrace means to Jack--and that he craves it but doesn't understand it (the stress here being on the lack of understanding)? I think possibly that means Jack is actually craving love--Ennis's love, I guess--but doesn't really understand his own need for it.

[nakymaton]

But let's not overlook the possibility that Jack, possibly in both film and story, is committing the error made by countless men and women, gay and straight: That quest for sex is really masking the quest for love.

Remember, in the story, Annie tells us how much the memory of the dozy embrace means to Jack--and that he craves it but doesn't understand it (the stress here being on the lack of understanding)? I think possibly that means Jack is actually craving love--Ennis's love, I guess--but doesn't really understand his own need for it.

Yes... yes. And maybe it's just not understanding it, rather than being afraid of it.

In your re-watching, did it feel like the dozy embrace was from Jack's POV in the movie? Or did it seem like it was simply a memory for everyone of what had been, a compare-and-contrast kind of moment so that the "deceased" postcard would hurt even more than it does?

[Jeff Wrangler]

In your re-watching, did it feel like the dozy embrace was from Jack's POV in the movie? Or did it seem like it was simply a memory for everyone of what had been, a compare-and-contrast kind of moment so that the "deceased" postcard would hurt even more than it does?

Interesting question. I've never thought about the scene in that way before, and now I'm trying to remember exactly what the shots are immediately right before and immediately right after the dozy-embrace flashback; e.g., after the flashback, what do we see first, Jack's face or Ennis's pickup driving away?

Regardless, I've always seen the flashback as Jack's memory--but maybe that's because of my familiarity with Annie Proulx's text.

(Edit: Just to note that I'm leaving work early this afternoon, goin' a visit my daddy for a few days, so I'll be out of computer touch from around 3:00 this afternoon EST until I return home Sunday evening. So if I drop out of the conversation, that's why. ~J.W.)

[serious crayons]

after the flashback, what do we see first, Jack's face or Ennis's pickup driving away?

Jack's face. It segues from young Jack watching Ennis ride away on his horse to old(er) Jack watching Ennis drive away in his truck. For this reason, I see it as being Jack's POV, too. As if he's thinking back on that other time (on all the other times) he watched Ennis go away. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved.

(Edit: Just to note that I'm leaving work early this afternoon, goin' a visit my daddy for a few days, so I'll be out of computer touch from around 3:00 this afternoon EST until I return home Sunday evening. So if I drop out of the conversation, that's why. ~J.W.)

Gonna go help out with the ranch? Have fun! 

[Jeff Wrangler]

Gonna go help out with the ranch? Have fun! 

Gonna lick it into shape! 

[southendmd]

Boy, this discussion has strayed from poor Uncle Harold!

I wanted to share a few thoughts on the sex/love thing.

I'm reminded of the trolls' complaints over at IMDb initially:  "this film is just about sex, that's all gay men want" etc. etc.

That's clearly just a simplistic and superficial interpretation of what we see.  I think sex is at the forefront because these guys don't have much language for love.  Remember, they have a "thing": "one-shot thing we got goin' on here" and "this thing grabs hold of us again...", Ennis says. 

The evidence for love is there, but more subtle.  Including Ennis collapsing in the alley: even he doesn't know what it means.  (Story Ennis says it took him a year to figure out he never should of let Jack out of his sight.)

Also, don't be so hard on Jack!  If he were really just looking for sex, why drive 1200 miles for it when you're right next to Mexico? 

I think the tragedy is that they don't understand each other.  It's not just Jack not understanding Ennis's internal homophobia.  "I got the girls...." is just another excuse, the passing white truck=paranoia, Jack says "I get it".  Ennis doesn't understand what the divorce postcard would have meant to Jack, who had clearly stated his intentions of wanting a life together.

IMO, Jack goes to Mexico not just out of anger or spite, but mostly out of sadness and loneliness.  His face in the alley does not say "horny", rather it says "despair".

Jack's dozy embrace:  as Jeff said, even he doesn't understand it.  Annie uses the word "sexless" to describe it.  (The scene in the film wasn't bookended from Jack's POV, only afterwards, but very effective pairing of Ennis's riding away and Jack's facial expression of pure love, to his hardened expression watching Ennis drive away in the truck.)

They don't understand each other, use sex as a metaphor, blame each other for how their lives turned out, and that's their tragedy.  Ennis embodies regret.

Paul

[serious crayons]

His face in the alley does not say "horny", rather it says "despair"

That's the perfect word for it, Paul!