Author Topic: A Ninth Viewing Observation  (Read 129770 times)

Offline serious crayons

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Re: A Ninth Viewing Observation
« Reply #120 on: August 07, 2006, 10:16:11 pm »
Well, I don't know that anybody dislikes Jack.

 :)

Offline welliwont

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Re: A Ninth Viewing Observation
« Reply #121 on: August 07, 2006, 10:54:29 pm »


 I think Jack is genuinely sweet and who knows if he's a good judge of character... but he found something hugely special about Ennis.  Maybe this is a new way to think about Ennis.  Of course, this question can be reversed for those of you who love Ennis and dislike Jack.
 ???

hey Amanda:

I agree, Jack did certainly see something in Ennis to love so deeply.

My earlier post does come across very harshly against Ennis, and I do still believe everything I wrote, but in spite of what I wrote and how much I blame Ennis for their separation, I did not and probably still do not hate Ennis.  I just have a lot of anger towards him.  More so than before, even.  Now that I have studied the movie/story from every angle, and thanks to all of you, Ruthlessly, Opionionista, Diane, Mikaela, hell I better not start listing ever'body, I am sure to leave someone off the list, and that ain't my intention!

Anyway thanks to all of your thoughtful profound valuable insights, I have a real good understanding of this masterpiece, and as a result I now have more blame for Ennis, 'cause I surely do not blame Jack for breaking his own heart!

But I understand that many of you have way more empathy and sympathy for Ennis than I, so be it.  I do not want to try and convince you of my viewpoint, and I am sorry if my postings come across too harshly, that's just the way I think sometimes, I know that they are too confrontational sometimes, I chalk that up to my inadequacy in expressing myself. (like now)

So you people who have sympathy and empathy for Ennis, good fer you.  I just cain't accept that Ennis' internalized homophobia is a justifiable reason for him to freeze, hell, he doesn't even grow in twenty years.  That's one bone that I would like to pick with Ruthlessly if she were here, she wrote that Ennis had increasing what's-that-word? - paranoia (no, that ain't it), and I would argue that her proofs of Ennis' paranoia wer-  hell what I am doing, arguing with a ghost?  I agreed with just about all her other interpretations though, and my understanding of this masterpiece is so much more that it was way back in April!  So thanks to all of you, even the ones I have pissed off.

Jane
Then the clouds opened up and God said, "I hate you, Alfafa."

Offline dly64

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Re: Ennis & Cassie: Who broke up with whom?
« Reply #122 on: August 07, 2006, 11:20:18 pm »
OK, you are way more eloquent than I, but I will respond anyway.  Everything you said is true.  but just because his father believed and tried to make Ennis believe that homosexuality is BAD, etc etc. and yes his father probably did have a big influence on Ennis for the first 12 or 14 years of his life, the fact is, his father is long gone now.  I don't believe that the misguided hateful beliefs of the father are necessarily hopelessly branded into the mind and soul of the son, even less so if the father disappears at such a early stage of his life.

Ok, Ennis knew what his father believed.  But just because you know that a parent has this or that strong belief, does it become your strong value?  no, not necessarily.  Kids reject their parents' values all the time.  So Ennis finds himself doing and enjoying that very thing that his dead father hated so much, having sex with a man!  Good grief, Ennis *does* have pleasure when he is with Jack, he goes to Jack with a smile on his face, he lives for his time with Jack, so why is it so difficult for him to say to himself, "yeah my old man, he was a sumbitch, dead for 20 years now, he sure didn't care for queers, but shee-yt this here is what I like, this man is the one I wanna be with, and be naked with, shee-yt, I guess my old man was wrong!"

Anyway, I can't think of a better way to explain this, except to say that many people have experienced horrific tragediies in their lives equal to and greater than what Ennis did, and they do not let themselves be paralyzed with fear the way Ennis does.

The reason I am saying it has nothing to do with Ennis' present surroundings, is, Earl's murder is the only queer murder that we are told about, as being something that Ennis has heard about from around Wyoming.  Hell, what are the odds anyway, of it happening again?  Are the odds so stong that it makes sense to live like Ennis did, not liive the one life you have to the fullest?

Jane

Okay guys … You know I have to get in on this.

I have always said that I understand Jack better than Ennis … that is true. But, I don’t dislike Ennis. Ennis is a complex character. Here is a little boy who sees a homosexual man beaten to death and mutilated. He is taught, in essence, to hate himself because of his attraction towards men. He loses his parents at a young age and is raised by siblings. He lives in adjunct poverty. All of these things are traumatic and can never be erased. It is too simplistic to state that Ennis should just “get over it.” No one who has experienced horrific tragedies can ever forget what happened. How the person deals with the trauma depends upon many factors. One key factor is the ability to talk about what happened (either with a counselor or a supportive friend/ friends) and have a forum to process what has/ had happened. Ennis did not have the resources needed to work through all of the pain from his childhood. It is also important to remember the time period involved as well as the societal mores of the time/ place. Ennis could hardly open his mouth to get out a few words, let alone divulge all of his “feelings” with anyone! It was a HUGE step for Ennis to share with Jack about the Earl incident.

I think it is also important to note the difference between learned values and beliefs vs.
witnessing a tragic outcome as a way to reinforce those beliefs. An example of what I mean is this … a girl is taught that sex outside of marriage is a sin and that she will be punished by God if she ever engages in premarital sex. In this situation, it would probably be relatively easy for the girl to form her own beliefs and decide whether or not it is right or wrong to engage in premarital sex. Now, let’s say that this same girl is taught the same thing, but is shown a woman murdered with her uterus cut out because she was a sinner and engaged in this shameful act outside of the sanctity of marriage. Do you still think that this girl would ever be able to engage in sexual activity outside of marriage?

You talk about the sexual relations that Jack and Ennis engage in on BBM. I put this in a different category. BBM was a place free from societal expectations and prying eyes. They could be themselves. In their eyes, they were “invisible.” They had nothing to hide and they didn’t have to pretend they were something they weren’t (i.e. straight). Post mountain, everything changed. Both Jack and Ennis felt the need to fit into the mold of a straight man. It obviously didn’t work because of the love they had for each other. It is not a coincidence that Jack and Ennis engage in sex only in the mountains (the only exception is the motel scene). For Ennis, he was trying to recapture a time and place where nothing else mattered. Jack needed and craved more. Jack became more comfortable with his sexuality than Ennis ever did. For Jack, the next logical step would have been to have a life together. But for Ennis, that was not an option. Ennis could only see an intolerant society that would punish both himself and Jack for expressing their love for each other publicly (i.e. “ranching up” together). Nor could Ennis face the fact that he loved a man (until, ultimately, it was too late).

Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em."

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: A Ninth Viewing Observation
« Reply #123 on: August 08, 2006, 02:00:09 pm »
I wonder how many viewings the original poster of this thread has had now??

An observation, just barely related to your comments...Isn't it ironic? Here's Ennis, who is such a Boy Scout, clean (warshing everything he can reach), polite, respectful of women and parents, soft-spoken, chooses words carefully, courteous (wooing man and woman alike hat in hand), dutiful (giving footrubs on demand), industrious (working holidays and long hours), good with tools, weapons, and animals, knows the Lord's Prayer and nursery songs, etc. etc. Just the sort of boy my parents would have wanted me to hitch up with. And there's Jack, man in black, f**k-up rodeo rider, whiskey-drinker, too good-looking for his own good, not knowing a thing about his mother's religion, and throwing himself at both rodeo clowns and queens. Just the type of guy my mom warned me about. Yet, Jack had a happy marriage and  prosperity, while Ennis was a divorced devotee of beer parlors going from fistfight to fistfight. . . .
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Offline Momof2

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Re: A Ninth Viewing Observation
« Reply #124 on: August 08, 2006, 02:10:01 pm »
I had a very traumatic childhood.  It in some ways has made me a strong person.  In other ways I am still that little girl that suffered at the hands of another.  I have tried my entire life to "get over" it.  Most of the time I think I do extremely well.  Other times those feelings are so overpowering it is scary.  My husband is the first person I ever told what happened to me (my 2 sisters new).  It helps to have an unbiased person to talk to.  Sometimes I do not even want to talk to him about it.  It has caused problems from time to time.  It is hard to forget and get over some things.  You just make the best of it.  To me, being 9 years old and seeing a man murdered for loving someone would terrify me and I would always remember it.  I do not know when a person knows they are gay.  But imagine seeing someone murdered for loving someone and then realizing that you love someone that you "should not".  How terrifying that must be. 

I love both Jack and Ennis.  For different reasons.  In Jack I can see a part of myself that is so open to love and willing to take a chance.  In Ennis I see the part of me that was traumatized and can not "get over" it.  It is so very sad.  I think we all identify in different ways.  I want better and different for my children.  Sometimes I do not think I do that good of a job.  It is not because I do not want to.  It is just hard to get over somethings.  If you have never lived through something like that it is really hard to understand.  Ennis I think wanted better for his children.  When he ask Jr. if Kurt loves her.  I think then he realizes that if you have someone who truly loves you then you have to be with them.  Regrets of course.  Selfish no.
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Offline welliwont

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Re: A Ninth Viewing Observation
« Reply #125 on: August 08, 2006, 02:47:21 pm »
When I wrote in shorthand “get over it”  I did not mean to say that Ennis should be able to dismiss his feelings about the Earl tragedy.   We all have feelings and hurts that we hold in our soul, that stay with us all our lives.  I know that.  I meant “get over it and *live*, man, don’t let Earl’s murder cause you to roll up like a caterpillar for the rest of your f’n life!

I guess that was only implied...

J
Then the clouds opened up and God said, "I hate you, Alfafa."

Offline dly64

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Re: A Ninth Viewing Observation
« Reply #126 on: August 08, 2006, 04:09:07 pm »
When I wrote in shorthand “get over it”  I did not mean to say that Ennis should be able to dismiss his feelings about the Earl tragedy.   We all have feelings and hurts that we hold in our soul, that stay with us all our lives.  I know that.  I meant “get over it and *live*, man, don’t let Earl’s murder cause you to roll up like a caterpillar for the rest of your f’n life!

I guess that was only implied...

J

I see what you are saying. However, that is where Ennis’ homophobia comes into play. Ennis’ inability to allow himself to acknowledge that he loved a man (until it was too late) is because he was taught that homosexuality was something to be despised. It wasn’t only Ennis’ father that showed disdain for gays, but society as a whole. That is why Ennis would have never been able to publicly proclaim his love for Jack. Ennis was taught to hate his feelings. Ennis’ father, who certainly would not have gotten the “father of the year” award, was someone Ennis looked up to. In Ennis’ mind, not only was being gay something to be abhorred, but it was also dangerous. When Jack was killed (i.e. in Ennis’ version of Jack being murdered), it only reinforced Ennis’ belief that homosexuality made Jack a target of hatred.

Sometimes fear can be paralyzing. In Ennis’ case, this proved to be true. The only time Ennis could be free to express himself was on BBM. Once that cocoon disappeared, so did Ennis’ freedom from repression.

I want better and different for my children.  Sometimes I do not think I do that good of a job.  It is not because I do not want to.  It is just hard to get over some things.  If you have never lived through something like that it is really hard to understand.  Ennis I think wanted better for his children.  When he ask Jr. if Kurt loves her.  I think then he realizes that if you have someone who truly loves you then you have to be with them.  Regrets of course.  Selfish no.

I am terribly sorry to hear about your traumatic childhood. It sounds like you do have some support around you … that’s always good. Understandably, the scars are always going to be there. Thanks for sharing your story.

I agree that Ennis wanted something better for Junior. Ennis understood what he could have had and how it took him nearly 20 years to acknowledge that the love of his life was Jack. And, for the first time (in the trailer with Jr.), Ennis realized how his actions impacted and hurt those he loved. 


Diane

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Offline ednbarby

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Re: A Ninth Viewing Observation
« Reply #127 on: August 08, 2006, 07:23:43 pm »
I wonder how many viewings the original poster of this thread has had now??

Thirteen.  Seven on big screens and six on small ones.  But who's counting?  ;)

I find it hard to believe I've only seen it four more times since I started this thread back in April, but alas, it's true.  Two were in San Francisco in June (*g*) and one of the others was just a week ago Friday when my two BBM virgin girlfriends came over to watch it.  To follow up on my last report where that's concerned, one of the two now says she liked it so much and can't stop thinking about it that she's going to rent it and watch it with her husband, who hasn't seen it yet.  The other one just keeps saying, "Yes, I really did enjoy the film.  But then, I wouldn't tell you if I didn't."  Is it just me, or does anyone else want me to smack her?
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: A Ninth Viewing Observation
« Reply #128 on: August 08, 2006, 07:43:50 pm »
Yeah, so what in the hell ever did happen to poor ol' Randall?  Didn't this thread start out being about Randall....

 ??? ;)
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Offline 2robots4u

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Re: A Ninth Viewing Observation
« Reply #129 on: August 08, 2006, 09:11:03 pm »
Yes, Barbara.  Once for each of us who says "yes"...Doug