Author Topic: A Ninth Viewing Observation  (Read 151897 times)

Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: A Ninth Viewing Observation
« Reply #210 on: August 10, 2006, 08:53:02 pm »
[quote author=dly64 link=topic=7 100% agree




Ennis is trying to somehow smooth over the awkwardness of the situation. He wouldn’t have said, “Jack, stay at the Motel Siesta and we’ll get together later.” And if Jack would have shown up on another day when the girls weren’t there, he would have used another excuse like … “Jack, I gotta work …” (sound familiar?) It’s not the content of what Ennis is saying, it’s what he’s not saying. Ennis rambles on and on about having the girls that weekend. But while he’s talking, he’s watching the truck that’s driving by. Another sign that Jack knows Ennis will never change. Ennis’ fear of being “outed” is too strong. 
 
[/quote]I was thinking up in the mountians. Unfortunatally his fears were not unfounded.
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline dly64

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Re: A Ninth Viewing Observation
« Reply #211 on: August 10, 2006, 09:05:48 pm »
I was thinking up in the mountians. Unfortunatally his fears were not unfounded.

Tell me more .... are you saying Ennis' fears were not unfounded because of .... what he saw as a child? How he thinks Jack died? Just curious.
Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em."

Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: A Ninth Viewing Observation
« Reply #212 on: August 10, 2006, 09:15:42 pm »
Tell me more .... are you saying Ennis' fears were not unfounded because of .... what he saw as a child? How he thinks Jack died? Just curious.
Because reality was and may still be that WY is not safe place to be out. I think Ennis felt they could never be safe from harm by having the sweet life and it was his way of protecting Jack as well as himself. I think he wished for that life as much as Jack but knew it could never be, but he still treasured what he had with Jack. Matthew Shepard was murdered 14 years after the time frame of the movie in Laramie, WY supposably the most liberal part of the state.
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline dly64

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Re: A Ninth Viewing Observation
« Reply #213 on: August 10, 2006, 09:30:50 pm »
Because reality was and may still be that WY is not safe place to be out. I think Ennis felt they could never be safe from harm by having the sweet life and it was his way of protecting Jack as well as himself. I think he wished for that life as much as Jack but knew it could never be, but he still treasured what he had with Jack.

I agree with everything exept that Ennis wished for the "sweet life" as much as Jack. In the end, yes. But Ennis was homophobic himself. The idea of loving a man was something he could not ackowledge, let alone accept, until Jack was ultimately gone.
Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em."

Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: A Ninth Viewing Observation
« Reply #214 on: August 10, 2006, 09:52:19 pm »
I agree with everything exept that Ennis wished for the "sweet life" as much as Jack. In the end, yes. But Ennis was homophobic himself. The idea of loving a man was something he could not ackowledge, let alone accept, until Jack was ultimately gone.
I think on some level he did, or at least knew he loved Jack. Otherswise he would have left Brokeback After FNIT. Neither could say the words, but said so many other ways even in their anger.
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: A Ninth Viewing Observation
« Reply #215 on: August 10, 2006, 11:41:21 pm »
I agree with everything exept that Ennis wished for the "sweet life" as much as Jack. In the end, yes. But Ennis was homophobic himself. The idea of loving a man was something he could not ackowledge, let alone accept, until Jack was ultimately gone.

We keep going back to this, but since it keeps coming up I always feel I have to throw in my 2 cents. I think Ennis did acknowlege and accept that he loved a man, even if he didn't use that word. He would have moved in with Jack in a Laramie heartbeat if nobody else were around.

Look at how he behaved on Brokeback (after TS2). The fact that Jack was a man didn't stop him there, and essentially they WERE living together as a couple. And when the summer ended prematurely, Ennis wasn't sighing with relief that he could finally quit this lovin a man stuff. He was distraught.

For that matter, he accepted it in a different way during the years following the reunion. Otherwise, he wouldn't have gone to meet Jack in the middle of nowhere. He loved seeing Jack. Those trips were the highlight of his life. He just couldn't do it publicly.

So yeah, he was homophobic, but that wasn't what kept him from accepting Jack's offer. Nor was it purely fear of meeting the same fate as Earl. It was something a little more complicated. I think a lot of it was what Amanda said a ways back:

Quote
Ennis likes to follow rules (when he can)... when he breaks the rules (almost any rule) it causes him anxiety ... or tries to break the rules only a little bit (i.e. killing an elk is breaking the rules a bit because it's poaching, but it's not as bad as killing a sheep).

The rules said, don't live with a man. In fact, the rules said don't even love a man. So Ennis already WAS breaking that rule, which caused him stress. Living with Jack would have been a sheep -- way off limits. Never seeing Jack at all would have been beans. Meeting once in a while in the middle of nowhere was Ennis' elk.

Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: A Ninth Viewing Observation
« Reply #216 on: August 10, 2006, 11:52:23 pm »
We keep going back to this, but since it keeps coming up I always feel I have to throw in my 2 cents. I think Ennis did acknowlege and accept that he loved a man, even if he didn't use that word. He would have moved in with Jack in a Laramie heartbeat if nobody else were around.

Look at how he behaved on Brokeback (after TS2). The fact that Jack was a man didn't stop him there, and essentially they WERE living together as a couple. And when the summer ended prematurely, Ennis wasn't sighing with relief that he could finally quit this lovin a man stuff. He was distraught.

For that matter, he accepted it in a different way during the years following the reunion. Otherwise, he wouldn't have gone to meet Jack in the middle of nowhere. He loved seeing Jack. Those trips were the highlight of his life. He just couldn't do it publicly.

So yeah, he was homophobic, but that wasn't what kept him from accepting Jack's offer. Nor was it purely fear of meeting the same fate as Earl. It was something a little more complicated. I think a lot of it was what Amanda said a ways back:

The rules said, don't live with a man. In fact, the rules said don't even love a man. So Ennis already WAS breaking that rule, which caused him stress. Living with Jack would have been a sheep -- way off limits. Never seeing Jack at all would have been beans. Meeting once in a while in the middle of nowhere was Ennis' elk.

well said, I agree 100%
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: A Ninth Viewing Observation
« Reply #217 on: August 11, 2006, 07:30:42 pm »
So Ennis already WAS breaking that rule, which caused him stress. Living with Jack would have been a sheep -- way off limits. Never seeing Jack at all would have been beans. Meeting once in a while in the middle of nowhere was Ennis' elk.

Hey Bud,
This was a very poetic way to describe this whole situation.

LOL, I love that we can all read these sentences and actually, totally understand what they mean.  It would be funny to go up to a random person on the pavement and just recite this to see if these phrases would make any sense whatsoever to a non-Brokie.  I think we're all at a stage where we can take Brokie-isms to a very high, next level.
 :D

OK.  One serious note.  I think Ennis would have loved living with Jack under ideal circumstances.  I think it's correct to note how happy/ content/ comfortable he is on Brokeback and his emotional breakdown at having that situation taken away from him.  But, at the same time I do see Ennis fundamentally as a personality (without Jack even being an issue here) that craves or thrives a bit on a lot of alone-time.  Jack is right when he notes that Ennis can make it on a couple of get togethers once or twice a year.  Being alone isn't as draining for Ennis as it is for Jack.
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Offline dly64

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Re: A Ninth Viewing Observation
« Reply #218 on: August 11, 2006, 09:23:19 pm »
We keep going back to this, but since it keeps coming up I always feel I have to throw in my 2 cents. I think Ennis did acknowlege and accept that he loved a man, even if he didn't use that word. He would have moved in with Jack in a Laramie heartbeat if nobody else were around.

Look at how he behaved on Brokeback (after TS2). The fact that Jack was a man didn't stop him there, and essentially they WERE living together as a couple. And when the summer ended prematurely, Ennis wasn't sighing with relief that he could finally quit this lovin a man stuff. He was distraught.

For that matter, he accepted it in a different way during the years following the reunion. Otherwise, he wouldn't have gone to meet Jack in the middle of nowhere. He loved seeing Jack. Those trips were the highlight of his life. He just couldn't do it publicly.

So yeah, he was homophobic, but that wasn't what kept him from accepting Jack's offer. Nor was it purely fear of meeting the same fate as Earl.

I found this essay …. I don’t agree with all of it, but I certainly thought it would provoke some discussion. (I am only pulling out the paragraph(s) that are applicable to this topic)

Brokeback Mountain: a timeless struggle
Written by: ginNcolke

…  Theirs is a story of desperation, hard times and unlikely elation. These characters exist in a landscape much like their lives, both brutal and magnificent. In exploring the intimacies and sexual pleasures emerging from this masculine world, “Brokeback Mountain” captures the destruction and isolation, which comes from both men’s disapproval of their homosexual tendencies.

… Ennis lives his adult life plagued by the remembrance of a man who was brutally killed because people thought him to be a homosexual. In essence these two live a life that could have been a lot happier if there weren’t prejudices that prevented them from being together. What I find most interesting is that it wasn’t other people’s prejudices that kept them apart, although that was a part. These men are kept apart by their own morals. They truly believed that their homosexuality was immoral.

… In Brokeback Mountain the cowboys, Jack and Ennis, must hide their relationship because of its immoral content. Thus, they live a life hiding from their true feelings. At some times they even trying to deny their nature. Because of the threat of being ostracized and possible killed, these men led a life separate from their love for one another. Though, in the end their prejudice, along with every one else’s killed Jack. Ennis knows this and the only place that they have left is Brokeback Mountain, a place untouched by the world, unable to be soiled with prejudices.


Just an interesting thought. I certainly don’t go this far. But I think there are some good points.

I always think that I don’t express myself well when I am talking about Ennis’ love for Jack. Yes …. he loves Jack. No …. He doesn’t call it that. But, post mountain, everything changes. The societal pressures consume him. Does he see himself as gay?  … NO WAY! His love for Jack is an anomaly. He doesn’t understand it or why it happened. It just did. IMO, he struggles with that internally. How could he love a man when, in Ennis’ mind, loving a man is a bad thing? Ennis spends years trying to deal with this emotional tug-of-war. Ultimately, he breaks down into Jack’s arms because he can no longer pretend to be someone/ something that he isn’t.
Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em."

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: A Ninth Viewing Observation
« Reply #219 on: August 12, 2006, 09:37:59 am »
So yeah, he was homophobic, but that wasn't what kept him from accepting Jack's offer. Nor was it purely fear of meeting the same fate as Earl. It was something a little more complicated. I think a lot of it was what Amanda said a ways back:

The rules said, don't live with a man. In fact, the rules said don't even love a man. So Ennis already WAS breaking that rule, which caused him stress. Living with Jack would have been a sheep -- way off limits. Never seeing Jack at all would have been beans. Meeting once in a while in the middle of nowhere was Ennis' elk.

Once more, I agree. Hunderd percent.


But, at the same time I do see Ennis fundamentally as a personality (without Jack even being an issue here) that craves or thrives a bit on a lot of alone-time.  Jack is right when he notes that Ennis can make it on a couple of get togethers once or twice a year.  Being alone isn't as draining for Ennis as it is for Jack.

Gernarally I agree. Obvioulsy Ennis is much more of a loner than Jack. And Ennis is good in standing things, better than Jack. And he can make it on a couple of get togethers for 20 years. But then not any more. It has taken it's toll from Ennis as much as from Jack.
When Ennis breaks down at the lake scene, it is not only because his two inner worlds - loving queer but living straight - collide (in fact, I think this is a minor issue at this point, see my answer to Diane), and not only because of the menace of loosing Jack terrifies him, but it's also or even mostly because he is just as drained as Jack is (I'm nothing, I'm nowhere). But for 20 years he was better in hiding it. When Jack says "Truth is, sometime I miss you so much..." the evening before, Ennis knows exactly what he means not only because he knows Jack so well, but because for him it's the same . Although Lee left out the sentence from the 2003 screenplay where Ennis says "I know the feeling", we can see it. Look at his face.
Ennis misses Jack just as much as vice versa and he longed for that sweet life just as much.


LOL, I love that we can all read these sentences and actually, totally understand what they mean.  It would be funny to go up to a random person on the pavement and just recite this to see if these phrases would make any sense whatsoever to a non-Brokie.  I think we're all at a stage where we can take Brokie-isms to a very high, next level.
 :D

LOL No, obvioulsy it would not make any sense to them  :laugh:
We've come a long way with our obsession. When I started to post on TOB I had not half the insight into the movie and it's characters as I have today. Thanks to repeated viewings, to my own reflections and most notably to the insightful and elaborate thoughts of other Brokies, to our exchange here on BetterMost.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2006, 09:40:41 am by Penthesilea »