Author Topic: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain  (Read 111001 times)

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #80 on: March 08, 2008, 10:25:08 am »
You bring up some good points. As a farm boy (who listened endlessly to my dad and granddad) the analogy of reaping and threshing is ominous. A reaper was a machine that was used to cut grain, that is, to mow/cut it down. Later, technology expanded to include a "drop reaper" - a machine that combined the functions of cutting the grain and binding the bundles with twine/rope to be picked up later and taken to the "threshing machine." This is where the grain was separated from the hulls or chaff, literally by being pounded and pummeled. Of course, by 1963 all these functions were integrated into a "combine" - one machine that does it all from cutting to separating the grain. A variation of "thresh" is "thrash."  "Thrashed to within an inch of his life..."  For Jack, a gloomy instance of foreshadowing.

Yes, and Jack was the best combine salesman they had. He was the only combine salesman they had. (That's a line from the movie, not the book. Oh, how these things get tangled up!)
"chewing gum and duct tape"

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #81 on: August 22, 2008, 12:27:47 pm »
HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO ANNIE PROULX!!

A good reason to get out the story today or this weekend, and read it again...


Lately I'm thinking about the use of the word "pitch" in the story...

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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #82 on: August 22, 2008, 10:58:29 pm »
Lately I'm thinking about the use of the word "pitch" in the story...


This is a great topic Sister Mod!   The instance of this word that comes to my mind immediately is as a verb... in the sentence: " He wanted to be a sophomore, felt the word carried a kind of distinction, but the truck broke down short of it, pitching him directly into ranch work."

Now, looking at my dictionary (a leatherbound Webster's Ninth Collegiate Dictonary) it not only shows multiple definitions for the main word "pitch" (as a noun and a verb), but there are is almost 3/4 of a page full of words that contain the word "pitch" within them.  Some of the words listed that include the term "pitch" are: pitch-black, pitch-blende, pitch-dark, pitched battle, pitcher, pitcher plant, pitchfork, pitch in, pitchman, pitchout, pitch pine, pitch pipe, pitchstone, pitchwoman, and pitchy.

I'm going to highlight some of the definitions here that seem particularly interesting:

Here are some of the main noun definitions for the basic word "pitch".  My dictionary divides the noun section into two very distinct parts (interrupted by the section of definitions on the verb form... this is the first set of noun definitions):
1) a black or dark viscous substance obtained as a residue in the distillation of organic materials and esp. tars. (this is the very first definition of all that appear)
2) any of various various bituminous substances
etc.  several definitions along these lines

Here are some of the main verb definitions for "pitch":
1) to cover, smear or treat with or as with pitch
2)to erect and fix firmly in place
3) a) to throw usu. with a particular objective or toward a particular point {~ hay onto a wagon} (b) to throw {a baseball} to a batter (c) to toss so as to fall at or near a mark {a coin} (d) to put aside or discard by throwing
4) a) to cause to be at a particular level or of a particular quality. (b) to cause to be set at a particular angle
5) to utter glibly and insincerely
6) to use as a starting pitcher, to play as pitcher
7) to hit a golf ball in a high arc with backspin so that it rolls very little after striking the green

Here is a second, separate section of verb forms:
1) a) to fall precipitately or headlong :o It's almost like Annie was reading a dictionary when she was writing one particular BBM passage that we all know and love)
1) b) to have the bow of a ship alternately plunge precipitately and rise abruptly
1) c) to buck  :o
2) to encamp
3) to hit upon or happen upon something
4) to incline downward
5) to throw a ball to a batter

Here is the second section of noun forms:
1) the action of manner of pitching; esp. an up-and-down movement
2) slope (there are many subdefinitions of this)
3) top, zenith (archaic use)
4) a) the relative level, intensity, or extent of some quality or state. (b) the property of a sound and esp. a musical tone that is determined by the frequency of the waves producing it. (there is a lot more to this part of the definition)
5) a steep place
6) a playing field
7) an all-fours game in which the first card led is a trump. (  ??? I have no idea what that means!)
8) an often high pressure sales talk

etc., etc.

So, it seems that this word applies to tons of different themes, topics and concepts peppered throughout BBM in very many different contexts.  And, of course the term "to pitch" or "pitcher" also has a sexual slang meaning.

Definitely lots of food for thought!
:)

 
« Last Edit: August 23, 2008, 03:09:27 pm by atz75 »
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Offline Gabreya

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #83 on: August 22, 2008, 11:48:24 pm »
*Oh my.* :(

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #84 on: August 23, 2008, 09:41:31 am »
Wow, this is very thought-provoking! Amazing that one word can do all that work!

Thank you for your insights, dear friend! Do you suppose Diana and Larry were inspired by Annie's use of the word pitch to include the road-surfacing scene with the garrulous Timmy?

And, Gabryela, could you elaborate, please?

1) a black or dark viscous substance obtained as a residue in the distillation of organic materials and esp. tars. (this is the very first definition of all that appear)
2) any of various various bituminous substances
etc.  several definitions along these lines

Here are some of the main verb definitions for "pitch":
1) to cover, smear or treat with or as with pitch
2)to erect and fix firmly in place
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline optom3

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #85 on: August 23, 2008, 12:29:43 pm »
When I read the story for the 1st time, which I did before watching the film.Two sections tore me apart,and in fact left me gasping for breath, literally.
In fact as I think of them again I feel my chest tightening and throat constricting.
The first was. The whole dozy embrace section.

"Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness,in their separate and difficult lives" I remember thinking just one single moment in all those years.How little true happiness either of them had in their lives.The s.s continues,
"Nothing marred it,even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held"
That second sentence indicates just how very little it took to please Jack.How full of pathos those few words,Jack is  childlike in his simple needs.Like a baby who is soothed in their mothers' arms.
The whole scene actually reminds me of parent and child, as the parent stands gently rocking a troubled and unsettled infant to soothe it.Even down to the fact that Ennis "rocked a little in the sparklight and Jack leaned against the heartbeat ......... and standing, he fell into a sleep that was not sleep"
I can remember doing that so many times with my children, the rhythm of my heart beat soothing them and just humming away quietly.Ennis is even humming himself.
That whole section always invokes the same heart rending response in me.Ennis is the older, in terms of world weary, and battle worn, Jack is still the child with his youthful optimism who believes anything is possible.It is so analogous with the parent child scenario,with one vital and I think important difference.It is usually the parent who while rocking their child,  has all the hopes for the future.I n this case it is the child.ie Jack.
At that moment I remember clear as day having a horrible flashback to the prologue and knowing, this was all going to end badly.

The second part that tore me apart, was one single sentence in the final paragraph.
"And he would awake sometimes in grief,sometimes with the old sense of joy and release; the pillow sometimes wet,sometimes the sheet.
The thought of Ennis crying in his sleep, silently and the tears wetting the pillow is too much to bear.The enormous love that, he realises way too late and the subtle reference to a wet dream with the sheets sometimes wet.
This is a much gentler Proulx, who has previously talked of the sex between the two of them in much more raw and basic ways.Here it is just implied.
I could write pages on just that one sentence.Even the fact that in sleep,Ennis still has no respite.The thought that as he lies in bed in his sparse trailer he never knows if he will awaken having cried in his sleep, or if he will have had a glorious sexy dream of Jack, which as he wakes he is forced to confront the fact that it is just a dream and face the whole horror anew.
Combining that sentence with the prologue, which has Ennis feeling of being " suffused with pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dreams"
Then we read how if "he lets a panel of the dream slide forward....... it might stoke the day".........reminding him  " of the cold time on the mountain when they owned the world"
An ironic statement, when compared to the present where Ennis owns nothing, not even the meagre trailer.It also serves to remind us that Jack was always the dreamer, and yet now we have Ennis, with nothing left except his dreams.The major difference being that in life, Jack had dreams for their future,in death Ennis has only dreams of the past.The whole section further underlines how completely out of synch. they were with each other, a situation that never changes, even in death.

It does not matter how many times I read the s.s , those sections reduce me to tears.It is all there.The optimism of a youthful Jack, who believed no harm could come to him.The paranoia of Ennis who feels exactly the opposite.Yet by the end it is difficult to tell who has suffered most.Jack is now dead and so his pain has gone.Ennis has to confront it on a daily basis, and has no respite even in sleep.
The thought of a grown man crying in his sleep, and yet desperately trying to hang on to a good dream,is so sad and lonely, it is difficult to bear.Ennis at the end is in a worse  situation  than Ennis at the start, alone at the start, but now having experienced love, he is alone and lonely.
Proulx has weaved her magic and we come full circle,  with Ennis, which in turn ties in perfectly,with Jack in the dozy embrace flashback thinking,
"maybe
they'd never got much further than that"
All those years, all that love, all that pain, and where do we end,almost back at the start.Twenty years lived and the end result is not much different for Ennis than the start, except he has now experienced love, which he has lost, so he is arguably in an even worse place than at the start.

I have never set much store by the  much overused statement, it is better to have loved and lost than never loved at all. Sorry don't agree with that, to have loved and lost hurts like hell.Better for me , the adage, what you have never had you never miss.

Proulx genius is in weaving a story where all roads finally come almost back to the start, with so many parallels in between,the reader may never discover them all.To have that magic happen with so few words is even more extraordinary. I can only remember my father crying once, and it haunts me still to this day.He was then a very austere father figure,who kept a firm check on his emotions.The sight of him sitting at the head of the table with silent tears rolling down as he carved the beef,nearly destroyed me. It could be that is the reason that the thought of Ennis silently crying in his sleep,is more than I can bear.
Proulx herself says, that a story is never finished until it has been read. I love that sentiment.It allows us to all take from it based on our own experiences, so no two interpretations will be the same.
How astute is that,no wonder she is so well regarded.I know the dozy embrace scene resonates so much with me as I have my own real life version, and it still hurts.

O.K second box of Kleenex opened.

One final note, I am an avaricious reader,so  despite majoring  in the sciences, I always took English as an extra subject, as I love to read.Never in the thousands of books that I have read, has one not only crawled under my skin, refusing to leave,in this way, but in addition has had me examine the very core of my soul.The person who gave a copy  to me, knew me better even than my own family.He knew exactly what my reaction would be.Unfortunately, I ignored my heart and carried on running.
Could it be when Freddie Mercury sings,
 
"theres no time for us ,theres no place for us,
 what is this thing that builds our dreams yet slips away from us,
Theres no chance for us,
its all decided for us
this world has only one sweet moment set aside for us.

He hits the nail exactly on the head.
Jack has his dozy embrace, Ennis has his little darlin, reunion kiss

Interesting how I have had to use so many words to try and describe the emotion invoked by so few.!!!!

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #86 on: August 23, 2008, 04:32:45 pm »
Ennis at the end is in a worse  situation  than Ennis at the start, alone at the start, but now having experienced love, he is alone and lonely.

All those years, all that love, all that pain, and where do we end,almost back at the start.Twenty years lived and the end result is not much different for Ennis than the start, except he has now experienced love, which he has lost, so he is arguably in an even worse place than at the start.

I have never set much store by the  much overused statement, it is better to have loved and lost than never loved at all. Sorry don't agree with that, to have loved and lost hurts like hell.Better for me , the adage, what you have never had you never miss.
I agree with you, friend, that to love and have lost hurts like hell, but still, isn't it better than oblivion? Ask the person who never found love, ask the 40-year-old virgin, and I'm sure they will say that they would gladly trade places with those of us who have experienced that once-in-a-lifetime love, even if only briefly. The truth is, lonlieness hurts like hell too, in fact, life is mostly pain. Yet we all go on with hope, and with stories like Brokeback Mountain, there is hope that more people will succeed in connecting.
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline optom3

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #87 on: August 23, 2008, 07:08:44 pm »
I agree with you, friend, that to love and have lost hurts like hell, but still, isn't it better than oblivion? Ask the person who never found love, ask the 40-year-old virgin, and I'm sure they will say that they would gladly trade places with those of us who have experienced that once-in-a-lifetime love, even if only briefly. The truth is, lonlieness hurts like hell too, in fact, life is mostly pain. Yet we all go on with hope, and with stories like Brokeback Mountain, there is hope that more people will succeed in connecting.

I love your last sentence, so full optimism, I so hope you are right, the world needs more people to be connecting instead of fighting. I look back at my  14-16 year Jack and Ennis type affair.There are definiteley some days when pre affair seems preferable to post.
That could be down to an email today, asking, does it still punch you in the stomach, catching you completely unaware even after all this time.He knows the answer of course.It was 14 years in July !!! Including the very first meeting, before anything further it is actually,16 years.
It still hurts like hell, and the fact that he will be in Florida in January on business has thrown me into a tail spin.
The one thing I would maybe disagree with is, I personally feel the loneliest place to be is somewhere you are meant to be happy and you aren't.
You sound like at some time you found your love.

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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #88 on: August 25, 2008, 12:17:20 pm »
Annie called it "getting hit by the hammer of life." It is inescapable!
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Re: Book Discussion: Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #89 on: August 26, 2008, 11:51:20 am »
I think there is a poll in here somewhere, and I'm gonna go over to David's forum and start one!

I was talking to my friend Vermont Sunset yesterday who was finishing up reading an Annie Proulx novel. In all the AP works he's read, he has never come across a story such as Brokeback Mountain. Anybody else know of one? Why would such a bleak writer suddenly write such a story, do you think?
"chewing gum and duct tape"