Author Topic: Mandatory Viewing  (Read 27423 times)

Offline starboardlight

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #50 on: April 25, 2006, 01:50:40 pm »
I would expect objectivity even in such movies as Murderball, Star.  Not only would I expect a good story of humans overcoming a serious handicap, but I would also want to see that they suffer, their families struggle under the burden of supporting them, the trips to the doctors, that they can be jerks and assholes just like everyone else - just because one is handicapped doesn't instantly turn someone into a saint.  I expect to see that.  I understand the people involved might get offended, but are the documentary filmmakers telling a 'true' story or a fairytale?

to be fair, that's not the story in the film. it's simply a sports film. it follows two participants in the sports, and focus on their passion for the sport, not their struggle with being paraplegics. Again, there was no objectivity. In order to understand the excitement in the sport, you had to follow their passion. The two guys' biases are clear but they're still infectious. I just don't see it as being wrong to show bias, because it's ultimately our responsibility to be discerning.

Although I also admit that there is a case for holding back judgement. I think of our movie here, and how the film makers held back judgement of either the men or the women's actions. By allowing the audience to make up their own mind, rather than telling us what to believe, it got us to become more involved. That's an approach to story telling that very difficult to do. Most story tellers won't even attempt it.
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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #51 on: April 25, 2006, 02:19:49 pm »
Whoah, let's back up here.

Can someone please tell me where all these supposed fictions lie in F 9-11?  There's only so much "spin" one can put on certain facts that speak loud and clear when they are caught like deer in headlights on camera in an elementary school class. 

I stick to my point that there is a big difference bewteen manipulation and having a point of view, and Michael Moore has a point of view.  The same could be said that Leni Reifenstahl had specific point of view with her classic documentary The Triumph of the Will, which glorified the Nazi party and was propoganda.  It's a classic, and it lies about and glamorizes its subject, but it's one of the best documentaries of all time.  The point--she was Hitler's friend and it was her point of view. 

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This was discussed about MM when 'Bowling for Columbine' first came out.  The response?  Good documentary films/filmmakers are objective.

That leaves the rest and includes MM.

Who discussed this and issued the final verdict?  Any great documentarian knows, from Morris to the Maysles to Moore, that the film has a power to change someone, whether it's exonerrating an innocent man in The Thin Blue Line or following Lila to the Capitol in F-9/11.  We live in political times and the medium is not The New York Times, as one documentarian recently told me, it's a vehicle for argument as much as illumination. 

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Well, I did because I was a liberal defending liberals to my right-wing friends and all they were going on about was MM's "lies and propaganda" in the F 9/11 film.  After a while I had to shut up because I didn't have a leg to stand on fact-wise.  And neither did MM after the criticism came down on his head.  After being touted as a 'documentary filmmaker' he eventually had to come out and say F 9/11 wasn't a 'documentary' but a political film.  Had MM been less fast and easy with the facts, perhaps he would have reached the audience that mattered.  The 50+% who voted for Dubya.

The belief that F-9/11 has been debunked is mystifying, as most I know consider it a great film and the criticism of it a knee-jerk reactionary and obvious scramble on the part of the right to save a very pale face.  I believe it won an Oscar, made 120 million and deeply affected most people in this country who saw it.  It is, on the whole, factually correct though the quibblers who like to take everything down, from A Beautiful Mind to The Hurricane, will find fault and defense. 

My final thought is that this lying, cheating, torturing, murdering, cheap, masquerading, attacking, sexist, homophobic, elitist, separatist, ignorant, warmongering adminstration has pulled enough wool over our eyes for too long and if Michael Moore wants to knit himself a sheepskin blanket, so be it.  It will never amount to what they've done if we want to play point/counterpoint all the way to the next election.  At least he won't be washing children's blood off his hands like they will be. 

Incidentally, Eugene Jarecki's excellent documentary Why We Fight also explores the American war machine and its effects in Iraq, through the eyes of participants on both sides, and...GUESS WHAT?  He reached the same conclusions -- murdered civilians in Iraq, willy nilly bombing, disenfranchised ex-adminstration members. Guilty, Guilty, Guilty. 

Also, check out the doc Control Room....

Everyone can't be playing fast and loose now can they????????? 

rt

 

« Last Edit: April 25, 2006, 04:53:49 pm by rtprod »

Offline MaineWriter

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #52 on: April 25, 2006, 02:37:01 pm »
Whoah, let's back up here.

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My final thought is that this lying, cheating, torturing, murdering, cheap, masquerading, attacking, sexist, homophobic, elitist, separatist, ignorant adminstration has pulled enough wool over our eyes for too long and if Michael Moore wants to knit himself a sheepskin blanket, so be it.  It will never amount to what they've done if we want to play point/counterpoint all the way to the next election.  At least he won't be washing children's blood off his hands like they will be. 


rt


Hmm, Mr. Prod, let me venture a guess here...you did not vote Republican in 2004?  ;)

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rtprod

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #53 on: April 25, 2006, 02:39:42 pm »
Am I now or have I ever been...a Republican?  I have never, and will never.  Ever. 

Yes, let's use the term "family values" shall we, when what we really mean is an attempt to turn civilization back to a dark continent.  While we're at it let's take away women's rights like Roe vs. Wade and stop sending condoms to Africa, instead sending bomb after bomb someplace else.  Bloody f*cking brilliant.    Better still, watch your back for all those Code Red alerts that never materialize.  We should be scared, just not of the shell-game they're dealing us. 

Wonderful -- progressive, isn't it?  Do we feel safe yet?

rt
« Last Edit: April 25, 2006, 03:26:53 pm by rtprod »

Offline MaineWriter

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #54 on: April 25, 2006, 02:45:10 pm »
I have never, and will never.  Ever. 

Yes, let's use the term "family values" shall we, when what we really mean is an attempt to turn civilization back to a dark continent, while we're at it let's take away women's rights like Roe vs. Wade and stop sending condoms to Africa.  Bloody f*cking brilliant.    While we're at it, watch your back for all those Code Red alerts that never materialize.  We should be scared, just not of the shell-game they're dealing us. 

Wonderful -- progressive, isn't it?

rt

Sweetheart,

You won't get an argument from me on any of this--believe me.

L
xo
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rtprod

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #55 on: April 25, 2006, 02:52:55 pm »
Okay guys, I'm preparing for the onslaught. 

Lemme have it.    :o

rt 

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #56 on: April 25, 2006, 02:58:45 pm »
Hiya rtprod

Whoah, let's back up here.

Can someone please tell me where all these supposed fictions lie in F 9-11?  There's only so much "spin" one can put on certain facts that speak loud and clear when they are caught like deer in headlights on camera in an elementary school class.

This is what I was sent:

http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm
 
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I stick to my point that there is a big difference bewteen manipulation and having a point of view, and Michael Moore has a point of view.  The same could be said that Leni Reifenstahl had specific point of view with her classic documentary The Triumph of the Will, which glorified the Nazi party and was propoganda.  It's a classic, and it lies about and glamorizes its subject, but it's one of the best documentaries of all time.  The point--she was Hitler's friend and it was her point of view.

In film, having a POV and manipulation is the same thing, IMO.  In order to show your POV, you necessarily have to leave out many other PsOV in order to focus on your own.  It's still manipulation.   

This was discussed about MM when 'Bowling for Columbine' first came out.  The response?  Good documentary films/filmmakers are objective.

That leaves the rest and includes MM.


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Who discussed this and issued the final verdict?

There is no final verdict.  Merely opinion. 

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The belief that F-9/11 has been debunked is mystifying,

See the above link.

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as most I know consider it a great film and the criticism of it a knee-jerk reactionary and obvious scramble on the part of the right to save a very pale face.

Mmm, guess it depends on where you live, rt.  Here in Texas, MM is a joke.  His movie was ripped to shreds and he was forced to backpedal on his facts.  I DO live in Dubya-land.  >:(

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I believe it won an Oscar

Which meant something important to me - before BBM lost Best Picture and we - as Jane Q. Public - found out exactly who and what made up the 'Academy'.

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made 120 million and deeply affected most people in this country who saw it.  It is, on the whole, factually correct though the quibblers who like to take everything down, from A Beautiful Mind to The Hurricane, will find fault and defense.

It deeply affected many people - both positively and negatively.  Where I'm standing, it didn't help the liberal cause at all.  .

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Everyone can't be playing fast and loose now can they?????????

Unless we have someone making a documentary/news report who has a reputation of being impartial and objective, then I'd answer - sadly - yes they can.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #57 on: April 25, 2006, 03:11:36 pm »
Don't bunker down too far, rt. I think yr singing to the choir, and a heavenly music it makes.

As for defending MM to the rabid republicans, don't bother. They're not rational beings.

The definition of a documentary is, as I recall from film class, having as its subject matter something that actually happened or is happening. There is no way a documentary or any work that humans produce can be objective. You have to point your camera somewhere. You can't point it at everything. The only way something can even approach objectivity is if you tell one side of a story, then another side of the story, then another, then another. This was the subject of the film Rashomon.
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Offline JCinNYC2006

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #58 on: April 25, 2006, 03:27:16 pm »
I love Michael Moore's work because it generates debate and discussion.  Yeah, it can also motivate a lot of anger and can be manipulative in the sense that he has some foregone conclusions to make.  But whether you agree with them or not is still up to the viewer.

I don't take everything he says as 100% accurate, and I will read critiques of his movies.  Skimming through the link posted (the Dave Kopel one), many of the rebuttals boil down to "both sides do this, not just Bush", although I don't think Moore is so fond of Democrats either.  I did idealize him more before F911, but after reading some criticisms of Bowling For Columbine, I readjusted my expectations and try to be more discerning.

I don't want to be manipulated by Moore and I definitely don't want to be manipulated by Bush, but ultimately the lies told by this administration affect me much more in my day to day life.  Anyone who is interested in at least opening people's eyes gets a listen from me.  I especially love the George Orwell quote he uses at the end of F911: "The war is not meant to be won—it is meant to be continuous."  I can't wait for his next movie.

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Offline JennyC

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #59 on: April 25, 2006, 04:02:56 pm »
Okay guys, I'm preparing for the onslaught. 

Lemme have it.    :o

rt 

Why would you?  No argument from me  ;D , and I suspect that a lot of people here feel the same at least on some of your points (except the objectivity on Documentary that is ;) )  You just said what many felt.   No one is going to slaughter you for speaking your mind. 

Isn't this what makes this group of people so wonderful?  People here can engage in discussion with respect and maturity given our differences.  Sometime the discussion can be heated, but worst to worst, we can always fall back on at least one common ground we have.  ;)


I do want to elaborate on why I think objectivity on documentary is important, it involves a documentary on Kennedy’s assassination.  I will have to come back on that later.

p.s.  This is a great discussion, but are we hijacking the initial thread for "Mandatory Viewing"?  I would recommend moving the discussion elsewhere, but I know the moment we move, the momentum will die.