Female Sexuality in BBM

[serious crayons]

Well, when I was in Sun Valley/Ketchum last, I remember there bein a lot of cokeheads!!

That was certainly the case when I was there last, but that was more than 25 years ago, so I wasn't sure it was still that way.

[LauraGigs]

I love this thread & have a lot to say. But first: about why Cassie put up with Ennis?

She's beautiful, confident, bold ... and yet she puts up with a boyfriend who is so uninterested...

Doesn't that happen pretty often though? That a great person will put up with a sub-par relationship?

And not only does she put up with him, she fallls in love with him, chases after him when he starts to fade and is heartbroken when he dumps her!

1) As a pretty waitress, she's probably sick of men coming on to her and has heard (or overheard) every pickup line in the book. A man she must pursue is refreshing and intruiging. (As in Lureen's attraction to Jack.)

2) One thing we know about Cassie is that she's an aspiring nurse — therefore drawn to the idea of rehabilitating those who seem in need of healing, which Ennis certainly did!

3) She was probably infatuated with Ennis to a point that logic ("it's been X number of years") takes a backseat. And nothing keeps infatuation alive like mystery, which Ennis had in spades.

...and [Ennis] presumably isn't the greatest in bed.

Alma sure seemed turned on by Ennis (even 11 years into their marriage and with all their problems)! So he must have been doing something right. Turning Alma over was objectionable, certainly. But outside of that (and with mastery of straight sex being a necessary part of his overall cover — and part of his denial), maybe he wasn't so bad in the sack.

[Brown Eyes]

Thank you all for the awesome responses so far!  I think this is turning into a really interesting discussion! 

So, what do you all think about Alma Jr.?  Nobody's weighed-in on her yet.

Alma:
Oh my, poor Alma. She was so much a product of her time and place. A victim to that specific society as much as Ennis and Jack (more than Cassie and Lureen).
Very long ago we discussed her background, her (assumed) upbringing and the fact that she was downright "trained" to be the woman and wife she was. I believe she simply had not much awareness and therefore no high expectations in regard to her own sexuality and their sex life. Women were trained to obey their husbands, in daily life as well as in the bedroom. And so she let him do what she hated.

I also agree with you about Ennis. As much as I love him - this is too much. It's truly the only thing I hold against him. The fact that he was gay is an explantaion, but in no way an excuse. The only thing that can be said to his credit is (again) their time and upbringings. He was also raised in the believe that men had every right to do what they wanted with their wifes. Even if this was never explicit stated to him (in regard to sex), it was just how the world was, it was 'natural' and a matter of fact.

Hi Penthesilea, I very much agree with your interpretation of the situation.  And, I'll just say that this whole issue really freaks me out... even the idea that people are "trained" one way or the other is creepy to me... let alone the idea that one person is expected to "obey" the other when it comes to the matter of her own body (**shudders in freaked-outness**).  But, I do think you're right that it goes a long way to explain things with regard to Ennis and Alma in bed.  Still it surprises me about Ennis and his decision to treat Alma this way.  From almost everything else we learn about Ennis, at least to me, he seems very sensitive to other people.  And, I do think he was fully aware that she didn't like this behavior (whether or not they actually discussed it in conversation) I'm sure he would have been able to sense her discomfort.  I do agree, too, with what has been said already in this thread... that he's definitely capable to blocking out or denying certain realities when it comes to his relationships with other people.  This one particular issue is so unsettling and honestly pretty cruel, that it seems well "below" what we know of Ennis otherwise.  For me it almost feels out of character for Ennis.

That's a good question. My first thought was that it would have been "too much". But on the other side, Ang Lee is a master of subtle hints. He sure would have been able to work it into the movie just as a little, unobstrusive sidenote. Maybe he really did with the interaction between Lureen and LaShawn? I'm not decided about this.

Why do you think it would be too much?  I mean, this movie (on one of it's many levels) is about confronting the topic of sexuality- focused primarily on gay male sexuality, but heterosexual female sexuality is at least addressed in different ways (through the lense of several very different characters) and the topic of bisexuality in men can also be said to be at issue within the context of the film/ story.  I think this leaves a bit of a skewed picture of female sexuality.  Granted the range of the film is sort of narrow given the relatively small number of major characters. 

[LauraGigs]

And, I do think he was fully aware that [Alma] didn't like [being turned over]. This one particular issue is so unsettling and honestly pretty cruel, that it seems well "below" what we know of Ennis otherwise.  For me it almost feels out of character for Ennis.

The book makes it clear that Ennis makes Alma climax before turning her over — lending at least a bit of reciprocity and consideration to his character.

Interestingly, the film makes it clear that he doesn't. I wonder why this is.

[Brown Eyes]

I love this thread & have a lot to say. But first: about why Cassie put up with Ennis?

She's beautiful, confident, bold ... and yet she puts up with a boyfriend who is so uninterested...

Doesn't that happen pretty often though? That a great person will put up with a sub-par relationship?

Heya,
I'm just popping back in to say I think this is also a really great point.  For some reason it reminds me of Jacks behavior too.  If we substitute the word "un-committed" for the word "uninterested" in reference to his perception of Ennis's attitude towards him.  I know many people are a bit in awe of Jack's persistence in coming back year after year over all those miles to a boyfriend who won't commit.  And certainly I'm not suggesting that the relationship between Jack and Ennis was "sub-par" except with respect to the dissatisfaction on both of their parts when it came to the distance/ lack of time/ commitment, etc.

I think the film (not the story at all) tries to create some kind of comparison (if not equivalence) between some aspects of Cassie and Jack.  And, I think this is all done so that it can come to a head in the bus stop conversation (or at least it seems to cause Ennis to maybe have a big realization about the reality of his relationship to Jack during the bus stop conversation with Cassie).  I wonder if this might be why it would be important for the relationship between Ennis and Cassie to be perceived to be long (4 or 5 years).  This way, at the very least, Cassie and Jack are both depicted as long "suffering" in certain aspects of "waiting" for Ennis.

[Brown Eyes]

The book makes it clear that Ennis makes Alma climax before turning her over — lending at least a bit of reciprocity and consideration to his character.

Interestingly, the film makes it clear that he doesn't. I wonder why this is.

I still think that whether or not she has an orgasm in a different sexual position still doesn't make it OK to do something else that she pretty clearly doesn't want.  My guess is that in the film they tried to economize and depict her displeasure at this in the simplest means possible.  That's just a guess.

[LauraGigs]

What do you think about Alma Jr.? I feel she's shown to be trapped in a bit of a cycle of little opportunity and a narrow social sphere.

IMO, the biggest clue about Alma Jr. is early in the film when Ennis gets Jack's first postcard.

Is she playing tag? Ball? Hide-and-seek? No....  She's playing Alma Junior, literally — cooking with a little apron, stove and pots — right beside Mom.

Sure, in her teen years she complains of strictness and wants to move in with Daddy, but by 19 the 'cycle' is complete: she's ready to settle down young, like her predecessors. (This isn't to say that she's unenlightened; we could devote a whole other thread to how much she knew about Ennis, for example. But her parents' divorce evidently didn't shake her faith in traditional relationships. Or she could be repeating her parents' pattern in an unconscious attempt to 'repair' that history.)

Ennis doesn't ask Alma Jr. if she's in love...

He doesn't have to ask how she feels; he knows. Ennis and she are so on the same wavelength. You can tell by the way they communicate in the truck after the Cassie date: relatively little is said but they read each other so well. (Her in-love glow at the end is fairly obvious to the viewing audience, so it's a given for Ennis!)

...only whether Kurt loves her. What's up with that?

It has been observed (& I agree) that Ennis wants to make sure she's not going too far down Alma Sr's path . . . in marrying a man who doesn't really love her. He doesn't want to see her hurt the way he hurt her mom.

Speaking of whom:

And, I do think he was fully aware that [Alma] didn't like [being turned over]. This one particular issue is so unsettling and honestly pretty cruel, that it seems well "below" what we know of Ennis otherwise. It almost feels out of character for Ennis.

How does he manage this, when he should know better?  Compartmentalization — this thing grabbing hold of him — the same mechanism that enables him to sleep with Jack and still believe himself straight.  (Or at least straighter than "Boys Like You" . . .)


So much to talk about here!

[serious crayons]

Catching up with this great discussion ...

Doesn't that happen pretty often though? That a great person will put up with a sub-par relationship?

Oh, maybe. I wouldn't know anything about that! 

2) One thing we know about Cassie is that she's an aspiring nurse — therefore drawn to the idea of rehabilitating those who seem in need of healing, which Ennis certainly did!

3) She was probably infatuated with Ennis to a point that logic ("it's been X number of years") takes a backseat. And nothing keeps infatuation alive like mystery, which Ennis had in spades.

Good points!

Alma sure seemed turned on by Ennis (even 11 years into their marriage and with all their problems)! So he must have been doing something right.

You think? My impression on the "if you don't want no more of my kids" night is that when they turn their separate ways, she's not all that disappointed.

Why do you think it would be too much?  I mean, this movie (on one of it's many levels) is about confronting the topic of sexuality- focused primarily on gay male sexuality, but heterosexual female sexuality is at least addressed in different ways (through the lense of several very different characters) and the topic of bisexuality in men can also be said to be at issue within the context of the film/ story.  I think this leaves a bit of a skewed picture of female sexuality.  Granted the range of the film is sort of narrow given the relatively small number of major characters.

I'm in the "it would be too much" camp, partly for the reason you mention in your last sentence. Do we ever even see two women in the same scene together, aside from Alma and her daughters or Lureen and her mom? Oh yeah, Cassie and Alma Jr. But otherwise, there's no evidence that any of these women have ever even met any other women.

I guess it might have been possible for Ang to have suggested something in a very subtle way -- for example, showed two women extras in the background together, the way we keep seeing pairs of men. But I think the goal of the movie was less to explore the range of human sexuality than to keep the focus very much on Jack's and Ennis' relationship, to look at how their sexuality and feelings for each other, and the restrictions put upon them, affected those particular men and everyone else in their lives.

It's also interesting that Ennis doesn't ask Alma Jr. if she's in love... only whether Kurt loves her.  What's up with that?

IMO, this isn't because he doesn't care how Alma Jr. feels toward Kurt. It's more about what Ennis has recently realized regarding his relationship with Jack. Ennis always knew he loved Jack, IMO. But that wasn't enough to spur him to action. But when he finds the shirts (and contemplates Cassie's "girls don't fall in love with fun") he realizes how much Jack loved him, that's when he fully understands how much he blew it. What he learned was, if someone (whom you love) loves you, don't waste that opportunity. He's assuming that Alma Jr. loves Kurt (as he loved Jack), and is saying, "If he loves you, that's what matters; you definitely should marry him."

I think this whole scene, which the first couple of times I saw the movie felt a little tacked on, is a really wonderful way of showing how the experience has affected Ennis and what he has learned from it. And it lets the movie end on a slightly more hopeful note than the story did. Alma Jr.'s role is to show the "what if": What if, when Ennis was 19, he had felt he could do what he wanted, and be with the person he loved.

[Front-Ranger]

I'm in the "it would be too much" camp, partly for the reason you mention in your last sentence. Do we ever even see two women in the same scene together, aside from Alma and her daughters or Lureen and her mom? Oh yeah, Cassie and Alma Jr. But otherwise, there's no evidence that any of these women have ever even met any other women.

I assume you're talking about the movie, since you say "scene." So, there's the two scenes with Lureen and LaShawn, which are very important scenes in my opinion. These were created by McMurtry and Ossana, I theorize, to flesh out the Texas Jack part of the story and setup his death and the final pronouncements of Lureen to Ennis. I think it was in the dialogue between Lureen and LaShawn that Lureen began to know that Jack was gay, when she found out the similarities between Jack and Randall.

[serious crayons]

I assume you're talking about the movie, since you say "scene."

Yes.

So, there's the two scenes with Lureen and LaShawn, which are very important scenes in my opinion.

Oh, yeah! Duh! I knew I would forget something.

These were created by McMurtry and Ossana, I theorize, to flesh out the Texas Jack part of the story and setup his death and the final pronouncements of Lureen to Ennis. I think it was in the dialogue between Lureen and LaShawn that Lureen began to know that Jack was gay, when she found out the similarities between Jack and Randall.

Good point. I think Lureen already knew something was amiss, but perhaps didn't have an explanation for it. She probably progresses a little closer to understanding during that evening.