Author Topic: Jack is also Ennis??  (Read 4544 times)

Offline Artiste

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Jack is also Ennis??
« on: March 19, 2007, 11:44:17 am »
Somehow, reading a post on Jack's parents home, I just realised right now that Jack is also Ennis! How?

1.In many ways indeed!! Jack's parents were poor financially and so were Ennis's parents!!

2. Somehow, Jack got to be wealthy in finances, was that just luck? How? His parents did indeed show love for him!! And that helped?? Many questions are in that money and/or love?

3. On the other hand, Ennis's father was anti-homosexual and that did not help Ennis at all! Did Ennis's father hate a homosexual or homosexuals?? Maybe Ennis's father was a homosexual, and fighting that in himself? Or was Ennis's father just a killer of freedom? Many questions need to be thought about?

Welcome and please express especially your IMMEDIATE feelings or ideas!!

Hugs!

Offline Artiste

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Re: Jack is also Ennis??
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2007, 06:23:18 pm »
Why no one touches this question?

Maybe I did too much all at once here?

Jack is also Ennis?


Hugs!

Offline Artiste

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Ennis and Jack, are they LIKE brothers??
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2007, 06:26:03 pm »
Ennis and Jack, are they LIKE brothers??

In a way??

How??

Hugs!

Offline Artiste

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Jack Twist had an oldest brother??
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2007, 10:41:50 am »
Do you think that Jack Twist had an older brother?

And maybe I could include him if I or another person write the next Brokeback Mountain film?? As remake or sequel??

And, could I dare have him visit Ennis, now after Jack's death??

And what do you think could happen??

Hugs to all!! Anxious to hear you!

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Jack Twist had an oldest brother??
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2007, 11:35:15 am »
I don't think there's anything in the movie or story to suggest that Jack had siblings. I'd say it kind of implies that he didn't.

But if you're writing a remake or sequel, you can do whatever you want!  :D

Offline Artiste

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Re: Jack Twist had an oldest brother??
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2007, 11:41:22 am »
Thanks latjoreme!

I do think that Jack Twist might have had a brother!!

Do you find it strange that there is only ONE child: Jack Twist only??
We are seven kids in my family in the sixties. I do not remember one family at school in the neighbourhood having only one or two only kids!!

Is this a puzzle to you too??

Hugs!

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Jack Twist had an oldest brother??
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2007, 12:19:18 pm »
No, I don't think it's strange that Jack was an only child and I agree with Katherine that we're not given any evidence that he had a sibling.  I think his only-child status is important to emphasizing exactly how lonely his childhood was (the isolated house, the one lonely road, etc.).  I think it goes a long way to explaining why he was so anxious to leave Lightning Flat.  The loneliness and the abuse from his father were clearly big motivating factors for getting out of there.

Why would you assume that his hypothetical sibling would be a brother?
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Artiste

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Jack Twist found Ennis (who is partly his father)??
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2007, 12:37:13 pm »
Wow, can Ennis be in a way Jack's father image?

The accent here is that jack is the ONLY child! And, thus, learned to grow that way! With adults!!


Answering a comment, I wrote this: In this, you spark too something in me. I now wonder since I think that both of the parents of Jack loved
their son and helped him in their own ways, that that made him socialize, because Jack wanted to do so readily like his mom, as well as had to do so like his dad!! In the film  the mother is amiable, and therefore, Jack seeks easily manyways to love! Also, the father is sad, and Jack is sad too... and somehow the father is loveable (I say in his ways) and therefore, Jack seeks a father in a way finding it in Ennis??

So, do you think that Jack found Ennis who is the continuation of his father?

Wow, wow! Am surprising myself with this question!!

And await ALL your answers!!

Hugs!!

Offline Artiste

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Re: Jack Twist had an oldest brother??
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2007, 12:46:06 pm »
Thanks atz75!

You bring up questions within your answers, maybe. At least, it starts questions and answers pour (for) moi, yes for me (or is it I?)!! Ha! Ha! Ah?

It is normal to get OUT, move away (at least for awhile) from the parents' house... as a teenager stating to be an adult. And make your own home, living alone or with someone, and/or have kids.  Therefore, Jack did... wanted that, but Ennis did NOT?? Ennis says that there was no more room for him once his brother got married!

I will comme back to toher aspects of your comments later. Remind me.

Hugs!

Offline Artiste

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Re: Jack Twist found Ennis (who is partly his father)??
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2007, 04:13:20 pm »
This one is too hard to tackle?

Come now you guys are experts at thinking!!

Awaiting... you thoughts and facts!!

Hugs!

Offline Artiste

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Re: Ennis and Jack, are they LIKE brothers??
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2007, 11:46:28 pm »
In some ways, Ennis and Jack understood... like brothers do??

moremojo

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Re: Ennis and Jack, are they LIKE brothers??
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2007, 11:33:35 am »
Yes, I like to think that Ennis and Jack were brothers in spirit. I don't have any brothers of my own, and always wanted a little brother when I was a child, and probably have had a tendency to idealize these kinds of relationships. But I like to think that all humanity is comprised of siblings in the eyes and heart of God.

I digress...but yes, I very much see Jack and Ennis as brothers of the heart; they were lovers, best friends, and blood-brothers (note the passage of Ennis's blood onto Jack's shirt), all rolled into one.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Ennis and Jack, are they LIKE brothers??
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2007, 12:19:56 pm »
Wow! Wow! moremojo: your answer is very touching to me and, likely to all!!

For many ways!!

Would you like to know??

Hugs!!

moremojo

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Re: Ennis and Jack, are they LIKE brothers??
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2007, 01:18:18 pm »
Would you like to know?
Sure! Feel free to share as much as you wish.

Also, while on the theme of Ennis and Jack's brotherhood, notice how Ennis seems to warm to Mrs. Twist on his visit to Jack's boyhood home, and she to him. It is as if Ennis is remembering/recognizing his lost mother in his lover's. And Ennis's exploration of Jack's room is strongly haunted by a sense of Jack's vanished childhood. Ennis is discovering this aspect of his beloved for the very first time--further uniting them in a sense of shared experience and even, perhaps, nostalgia. Only, tragically, Jack is no longer there to share any of this with Ennis.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Ennis and Jack, are they LIKE brothers??
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2007, 11:32:09 pm »
Thanks moremojo!

Wow ! Wow!! You must be a film producer or a teacher?? !!

You could certainly write like Annie!! Even be a casting person. Select the actors for the next Brokeback Mountain film? As you have talent!!

Here is what you say:
Also, while on the theme of Ennis and Jack's brotherhood, notice how Ennis seems to warm to Mrs. Twist on his visit to Jack's boyhood home, and she to him. It is as if Ennis is remembering/recognizing his lost mother in his lover's. And Ennis's exploration of Jack's room is strongly haunted by a sense of Jack's vanished childhood. Ennis is discovering this aspect of his beloved for the very first time--further uniting them in a sense of shared experience and even, perhaps, nostalgia. Only, tragically, Jack is no longer there to share any of this with Ennis.
...

Yes, Mrs. Twist and Ennis understand each other and love, are helpful!! Do you know that Mr. Twist tries too?
In a way to help Ennis!! But he is still too sad about Jack's passing!! How would you have reacted seeing Ennis for the first time if you were Mr. Twist??
May I ask??

Did Ennis talk about his own mother in the book?? In the movie?? Can she be compared to Mrs.  Twist??

Why the Jack's childhood boots?? Is that like brotherhood?

And/or other ideas??

Awaiting your news,
hugs!!


Offline Artiste

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Re: Ennis and Jack, are they LIKE brothers??
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2007, 11:48:01 pm »
Thanks again moremojo!!

This is to talk partly about what you say here:
Yes, I like to think that Ennis and Jack were brothers in spirit. I don't have any brothers of my own, and always wanted a little brother when I was a child, and probably have had a tendency to idealize these kinds of relationships. But I like to think that all humanity is comprised of siblings in the eyes and heart of God.

I digress...but yes, I very much see Jack and Ennis as brothers of the heart; they were lovers, best friends, and blood-brothers (note the passage of Ennis's blood onto Jack's shirt), all rolled into one.
...

I am an older gay man, had much experiences with many other gay men, and may I note with quite a few (lucky I was) who had no brothers nor sisters!!  Those who were the unique boy in each family, were very good persons with me, each one was kind-hearted and helpful as gay men, and when I think about it, each brought me (even after sex elsewhere) to their own home/appartment as they were gentleman, which is an act utmostly rare among gays (or even straights)!! Many were orphans as children and so caring!! Some had lost all their parents during WWII, unfortunately!! Maybe this helps, a bit?? Were they like Ennis?? In a way... kind like him!! Were they like Jack?? Yes, they brought me home and Jack wanted to bring Ennis home to his parents and/or even make a home with him with their own ranch, possibly, if I recall properly?? That is brothers in spirit, right?? !! Loveable!!

When one is a gay man, one seeks another gay man as a brother??

May I ask?

Awaiting gladly you comments,

hugs!!


Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Ennis and Jack, are they LIKE brothers??
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2007, 02:17:13 am »
Sure! Feel free to share as much as you wish.

Also, while on the theme of Ennis and Jack's brotherhood, notice how Ennis seems to warm to Mrs. Twist on his visit to Jack's boyhood home, and she to him. It is as if Ennis is remembering/recognizing his lost mother in his lover's.

Oh God, of course!  I never thought of that!  Ennis's first mother figure since his own mom died.  She was sonless, he was momless.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Ennis and Jack, are they LIKE brothers??
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2007, 10:33:05 am »
Thanks Ellemeno!

Thanks for your comment on the human condition... interesting!!

May I respond to your comment(s)??

You say:
Oh God, of course!  I never thought of that!  Ennis's first mother figure since his own mom died.  She was sonless, he was momless!
...

I say: That Jack's mother would indeed find Ennis to be like a son in many ways, for surely Jack confided
to her that he loved Ennis, likely?? What do you think??

As Jack and Ennis... were too like blood brothers??

At least, in the movie, we feel that Ennis felt easily comfortable with JacK's mother!! Was that so in Annie's story??

Because you do not mention if Ennis felt something about Jack's father when he visited first time the Twist parents home (after Jack's death)... like what??  That Jack's father maybe also liked Ennis as if Ennis was like his son... as it can be noted that Jack's father knew about Ennis in many ways likely?? I would like your thoughts on this, and from others too, please!!

Jack's father is sonless (to use a similar word like yours) now that Jack has passed away, and Jack's father had sought like Jack's dream: that Ennis would come to be helping Jack on the Twists parents farm!! Right?? (It seems nobody wants to talk about this? We are hurt like Jack's father; we are hurt like Jack's mother!!) May I state: that Jack's father knew that Jack and Ennis were like blood brothers, right??


May I ask also this: If you look above, I ask: When  one is a gay man, one seeks another gay man as a blood brother in some ways?? - and therefore, not knowing if you are a woman or a man, straight or gay (or otherwise), etc., you think that a person seeks another (even as lovers) as broherhood and/or sisterhood ??

I have noticed in straight marriages (between a lady and a man), that when they look very much alike especially physically (and likely emotionally, etc., that they are very, very HAPPY!!

These questions are for you and for all to answer, as you please.

Hugs to you and all,

moremojo

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Re: Ennis and Jack, are they LIKE brothers??
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2007, 11:37:42 am »
Artiste, thank you for your gratifying comments on my writing. But I'm no producer or teacher; just a humble mail clerk in a university library.

I'm not sure how I would have reacted meeting Ennis if I had been John Twist. It's hard to put myself in Mr. Twist's shoes, as he (at least on first acquaintance) seems so unappealing a character. But I don't think he was trying to help Ennis at all--I think he was trying to hurt him. That was the main reason he invoked the story involving the fellow rancher down in Texas that Jack had spoken of the last spring; you can see how wounded Ennis is on hearing that by the expression on his face.

Ennis mentions his mother when speaking of her death (alongside her husband's) in the bar in Signal, during his first real conversation with Jack. I don't think she's explicitly mentioned afterwards in the film, but in the original story, we learn that the tune he hums to Jack in the dozy-embrace flashback was a soothing song that he learned from his mother, "back in the childhood time" (quotes are paraphrases from memory). It was a motif that he associated with motherly love, and his lulling Jack with it reinforces what a nurturing moment this really is.

As for the boots, in Jack's closet, I don't see that as specifically associated with his childhood, but merely some old boots that he might have worn as an adolescent or even as a grown man (in the story, we are told that Ennis thinks he might recall having seen them before). But notice the old (bronzed?) children's shoes that we see on the table next to the closet. These were almost certainly shoes that Jack had worn as a little boy, and they serve to highlight the aura of lost childhood that this sequence evokes. They don't necessarily reinforce a theme of brotherhood, but they do add poignancy to what Ennis is learning and absorbing here.

I'll write more in regard to your other questions and comments later. Stay tuned.

« Last Edit: March 23, 2007, 11:44:08 am by moremojo »

Offline Artiste

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Re: Ennis and Jack, are they LIKE brothers??
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2007, 04:06:21 pm »
thanks moremjo!

Glad that you are working in an university. I would employ you as a professor there!! You do try to help people!!

May I also say this. It concerns my former friend now deceased (I figure killed my his MD in the hospital because my friend was a christian and/or jewish, and a gay man!!).  You are a bit like my friend (his name was Wayne). I say that because you analyse like he did and he was kind-hearted too!! I mentioned to him more than once that he could have been a teacher and/or university professor!! But he was a labourer (mailed boxes in an manufacturer of chairs and desks); have nothing against that, just that I know he could have been a teacher if he would have thought and wanted to be one!! With me and other gay men, we all went often to soup kitchens and did eat with all there... so we could help somehow OTHERS. He did things, some I know of, to help others, like bring food to those places!! And he talked with most (therefore in a way an university professor, I say), and he saved likely many persons lives that way (and his own and mine then too)!! At times, lile the Jack's Twist father, he was stern with me too (we were stern with each other when times needed it, and great in brotherhood and as lovers/partners as that I still think it was!!)

Here is part of your comment:
I'm not sure how I would have reacted meeting Ennis if I had been John Twist. It's hard to put myself in Mr. Twist's shoes, as he (at least on first acquaintance) seems so unappealing a character. But I don't think he was trying to help Ennis at all--I think he was trying to hurt him. That was the main reason he invoked the story involving the fellow rancher down in Texas that Jack had spoken of the last spring; you can see how wounded Ennis is on hearing that by the expression on his face.
...

May I say:
I consider that Mr. John Twist had a right to tell Ennis off!! And Ennis needed that!! That is brotherhood to me!! Mr. Twist did love his son Jack!! Ennis discovered that love of the Jack's father for his son... at that first meeting at Mr. and Mrs. John Twist home after Jack was deceased!! And Ennis accepted the words from Mr. Twist, (at least in the movie, it seems to me)!! Much more can be said... here??

Mr. John Twist might seem unappealing, as you say at first!! Indeed!! We must not forget that he was in terrible pain!! And Ennis had NOT helped his son (Jack); that Mr. Twist says so!!

Be happy to know more your thoughts in this and brotherhood!!

Hugs!!






Offline Shakesthecoffecan

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Re: Ennis and Jack, are they LIKE brothers??
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2007, 09:37:26 pm »
I am very sorry to hear of the loss of your friend Wayne. I know that must have been hard for you.

I think Ennis's visit to the Twist house was a very difficult for all three. Ennis, having an impression of them all ready and the Twists, they knew exactly who Ennis Del Mar was. I have always seen John Twist as someone straining to hold back his rage. I have known people like that. You sit in their living room and try to offer your condolence on their loss and they can't even look at you because you are "one of them".
"It was only you in my life, and it will always be only you, Jack, I swear."

moremojo

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Re: Ennis and Jack, are they LIKE brothers??
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2007, 09:44:05 pm »
When one is a gay man, one seeks another gay man as a brother??
Speaking for myself, I have recognized that much of my longing for men is driven by a desire to find a fraternal figure or even a father figure--in other words, to experience a nurturing bond with another male that I have felt has largely eluded me in life. I think this is why I have felt envious of those with brothers (with the accompanying tendency to idealize the fraternal relationship), because family is family no matter what (the saying "blood is thicker than water"), whereas lovers and even friends can, sadly, sometimes come and go.

But I don't think my feelings are at all universally shared. A good friend of mine, a gay man like me and just a little bit older, who had an older sister and two younger brothers, didn't agree with my ideal of a spiritual brotherhood, and saw the roles of lover and friend as distinctly different from those of sibling or parent (again, in a spiritual/emotional sense). He saw no need or worth in conflating them, though he respected my own viewpoint and honored the fact that I shared my feelings with him. I noted that his own relations with his brothers tended to be contentious and even rancorous; he seemed to bear more sympathy and good will for his sister.

For the record, I have one older sister, and though we were not close as children, as adults I now count her as one of my best friends. I have been blessed by the presence of strong, nurturing, and engaged female figures in my family, and have been shaped for the better by their handiwork; again, it is the masculine counterpart to this that seems to remain elusive, mysterious, and desirable.

injest

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Re: Ennis and Jack, are they LIKE brothers??
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2007, 10:16:14 pm »
I am very sorry to hear of the loss of your friend Wayne. I know that must have been hard for you.

I think Ennis's visit to the Twist house was a very difficult for all three. Ennis, having an impression of them all ready and the Twists, they knew exactly who Ennis Del Mar was. I have always seen John Twist as someone straining to hold back his rage. I have known people like that. You sit in their living room and try to offer your condolence on their loss and they can't even look at you because you are "one of them".

but do you ever think of why they feel that rage? I think a lot of time (most actually) people take out their anger (or focus it may be a better way of putting it) at the 'safest' person. The person that is there...

I can imagine so many feeling roiling around inside of someone that has lost a child they are estranged from...anger, definitely; grief, anguish at the realization that the reconcilaion will never happen; rage at society that has failed you;

so much pain...and for what? because of who someone wants to have sex with. We are so blind....so worried about other people instead of focusing on what is important.  (we = people in general)

Offline Artiste

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Re: Ennis and Jack, are they LIKE brothers??
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2007, 11:36:33 pm »
Thanks, thanks, thanks
shakestheground,
moremojo,
injest:

The 3 of you have asserted things which overwhelmes me!!! Am happy that you are expressing such values!!!

I have already re-read each one of you, and will re-read many times again, as there is much truths there!!!

Will comment later. For now, like Ennis, Mr. Twist and Mrs. Twist, I need to rest as the human condition is sometimes sad!!! Therefore, my needing is digesting such goodness and for time (rest)! It is also near midnight and my carriage will come... soon!

However, am glad to say that your thoughts also reveal that we can be HAPPY as humans, helping each other by understanding one another!!! Listening... and finding ways... talking!!!

This is a great Easter gift for me from you all!!!

Thanks!!!

Hugs!!!

Awaiting more.... like in the movie of the child asking for more food!!!

Offline Artiste

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Is Ennis a slave?? Is Jack a slave??
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2007, 04:42:02 pm »
The word slave here may sound harsh??

Here is the question:
Is Ennis a slave?? Is Jack a slave??

Are their lives modern day 1960's slaves and 2007 forms of slavery??

In our democratic societies??


Hugs!!


Offline Artiste

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Re: Is Ennis a slave?? Is Jack a slave??
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2007, 11:40:51 pm »
I suppose that there are many definitions of being a slave.

Let's hear some??

Hugs!!