Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class

[opinionista]

Ps. And Daniel has a point.

[Kelda]

I remember this debat over in IMDB - should I take my child to see it should I not? And i htink the conclusion was - it depends on your child.

At the end of the day - I saw many an R Rated (or 15 in this country) film before I was that age - 15. But then I was a pretty grown up child.

I think daniel has a valid point here - and I don't see why it shouldn't be shown in school - but perhaps a sign off slip at the beginning of term would be the way forward - ie - your child may be shown the following movies as part of their english class - please let us know if you wish you child to be removed form any of these viewings.

[injest]

Hmmm, I guess I just find it strange for the public school system to advocate literature which entails graphic adult sequences (and indeed has no problem doing so) but has immense difficulty with films which demonstrate the same thing visually...

Besides the extraordinary Shakespearean plays, the following books have been required reading for me in middle and high school.

Oedipus Rex Three suicides, self mutilation.
Antigone A number of suicides, mention of rape.
The Sound and the Fury Forbidden sex, contemplation of incest
All the King's Men Filled with adult language, somewhat graphic sex scene
The Iliad Mention and advocacy of homosexual relationship, graphic violence depicted
The Catcher in the Rye I can't remember what all was in this book, but adult language I think is a given.
The Garden of Innocence No, it has nothing to do with innocence.
The Great Gatsby Some depiction of sex, adult language
Metamorphoses Some of the most erotic poetry ever written in the classical age

Without going completely into Shakespeare, but here's a short list.
Julius Caesar Depiction of violence, a number of suicides.
Romeo and Juliet
Hamlet Sexual agression towards women, including one's mother. Violence, a number of suicides.
Twelfth Night Crossdressing, sexual frustration with homoerotic edge.
Macbeth Witchcraft, murder, rather strong language considering when it was written

well, for me, the first thing I think is, what you see is much more affecting than what you read. If I write that a man is nude...it creates a much different effect than posting a photograph of him nude. Writing that a person is dead feels much different than showing a corpse.

The concept so many have put forth that "they have already seen all that or heard worse language" is not a valid one to me.

[Daniel]

As I have said earlier, I am not defending the instructor. A permission slip at the least perhaps should have been required, even though I didn't have any permission slips for the required reading I mentioned earlier. It was up to the individual student to say "I have a moral problem with this" in order to be excused from the assignments (or given alternative ones).  I guess the point is that I know I personally gave up children's literature by the time I was 9 or 10 and was reading more familiar literature. I remember The Adventures of Tom Sawyer being a favorite of mine at that age, and look what it has gone through in its history.

But I think I will make one last point that I think it is the job of any education system to prepare youth for dealing with the real world and I would much rather have the education system teach adult themes then have younger people stumble on them later on. And then I pause to consider, why were all those books and plays I mentioned earlier required reading? It is obvious they have a great deal to say about the human condition, about social juxtaposition perhaps, or the inevitability of cause and effect. Shakespeare's works in particular seem to indicate that the personal choices we make are part of a much larger, complex reality of moral decisions and their results. Parents seem to try to indoctrinate their children with the idea of simple moral duality, but when we expand our horizons and really see what is out there, we (hopefully) realize that human life is much more complex. The concept of Moral Complexity is perhaps the most important one that an educational facility can teach, and is an important part of any liberal education.

[Daniel]

well, for me, the first thing I think is, what you see is much more affecting than what you read. If I write that a man is nude...it creates a much different effect than posting a photograph of him nude. Writing that a person is dead feels much different than showing a corpse.

The concept so many have put forth that "they have already seen all that or heard worse language" is not a valid one to me.

You are quite right about literature being different from a visual display. Children seem to have a canny ability to imagine literary scenes very well, so their imagination fills in the details. Instead of merely registering adult sequences, such literature forces the mental creation of them.  It is because "they have already seen all that or heard worse language" that such imaginations are so effective.  Once again though, this imagination is intellectually and creatively channeled... and perhaps works far better to lead a responsible youth into a mature understanding of adult reality.

[injest]

I agree that children need to be taught that life is complex and there are bad things out there. But we don't expect first graders to do algebra before learning to add, we teach in stages. First they learn the black and white, then you can begin to fill in the grey areas.

And there will ALWAYS be kids that are behind their agemates and some that are ahead; you can't cover them all in one class. You fed your needs outside of the curriculum and it seems to have been ok.

[Daniel]

I suppose what we are disagreeing on is the age at which the demonstrations of adult reality become acceptable in an educational context. I would say that as soon as children are exposed to adult reality by peer conversation the topics need to be covered extensively in a comfortable, educational setting. I really do believe in an intellectual channeling of more crass and conflicted considerations of any number of themes from sexuality to drug use.  I think this is one reason why the DARE program and Lion's Club seemed to work so well when they were used in the public education system, and if I remember correctly, it was at this age when we were first introduced into the programs.

[injest]

yes, the age and the depth of the immersion. At that age beginning to talk about more serious, complicated issues is acceptable but BBM is far too complex and graphic for a beginning.

[delalluvia]

Hmmm, I guess I just find it strange for the public school system to advocate literature which entails graphic adult sequences (and indeed has no problem doing so) but has immense difficulty with films which demonstrate the same thing visually...

Besides the extraordinary Shakespearean plays, the following books have been required reading for me in middle and high school.

Oedipus Rex Three suicides, self mutilation.
Antigone A number of suicides, mention of rape.
The Sound and the Fury Forbidden sex, contemplation of incest
All the King's Men Filled with adult language, somewhat graphic sex scene
The Iliad Mention and advocacy of homosexual relationship, graphic violence depicted
The Catcher in the Rye I can't remember what all was in this book, but adult language I think is a given.
The Garden of Innocence No, it has nothing to do with innocence.
The Great Gatsby Some depiction of sex, adult language
Metamorphoses Some of the most erotic poetry ever written in the classical age

Without going completely into Shakespeare, but here's a short list.
Julius Caesar Depiction of violence, a number of suicides.
Romeo and Juliet
Hamlet Sexual agression towards women, including one's mother. Violence, a number of suicides.
Twelfth Night Crossdressing, sexual frustration with homoerotic edge.
Macbeth Witchcraft, murder, rather strong language considering when it was written

Daniel and Jess both make excellent points.  I agree it seems contradictory to ask your child to read such stories even the Bible when it contains such explicit material yet rant and rave over rated R movies, but just as Jess says, seeing it is more impacting than reading it, but shouldn't that be an important point?  Perhaps if children saw what violence can do to someone, it would make make such violence and hate less a boring read and/or a glorified abstract and more a hard reality (beginning of "Saving Private Ryan" than say any old Schrwarzenegger macho military flick).  Just as an aside, maybe it depends on your public school?  None of these were required reading for my english classes until high school (after age 15).

[ednbarby]

I was shocked about the grandparents's decision to sue the school. I mean, I agree no teacher should show an R movie to a 12 years old. But if this was another movie, not about homosexuality, this case wouldn't have gone to court. They would've settled it at the Principal's office. I think they're overreacting because the movie is gay themed. IMO the whole issue is fueled by homophobia. That's what saddens me.

Well-said, Natali.  I agree completely.  This is precisely why it saddens me (greatly), too.

And Daniel makes an excellent point.  Here's the thing - by the time I was 12, I had seen (and been subjected to) some things that would make most people's toenails curl.  I'm sure many of us here have, unfortunately.  Zefferelli's R&J was in many ways tame to me by comparison.  Brokeback would have been the same.  And I think it would have given me a deeper understanding of what it's like to be a gay man in many parts of our society at an earlier age.  But I was a pretty introspective kid and mature beyond my years just by necessity.

This girl is not "traumatized" by the violence in the movie.  She's traumatized by the homosexuality/sexuality in general.  If that's really true, she's been living a far too sheltered life and will have a lot of difficulty functioning in society with or without having seen this movie at a young age.  That said, the teacher was out of line.  I still feel for her because I think she meant well.  No, I'm sure she did.  But it's one of those "know your audience" things.  You can think you're enlightening these kids from here to Tuesday.  But anyone who's not capable of hearing the message of this movie is not going to appreciate it in the least little bit - be they 12 or 52.

I swear if an 8th grade teacher showed Zefferelli's R&J today in certain parts of this country, guaranteed there'd be someone publicly bitching about it.  But I doubt they'd sue.  And if they did, as Natali said, it certainly wouldn't make it to court.  This is homophobia and this is the Bush administration.  He has taken us so far backwards, it will take several terms of liberal rule to repair the damage.  And with the Supreme Court stacked Conservative, it may take more than that.  I worry that 2008 isn't going to fix it, either.  We'll end up with McCain who isn't much more reasonable than Bush.  And we'll be at war for freaking ever.  Abroad and amongst ourselves.