TOTW 09/07: Did it seem like Jack was responsive to Randall's flirtatiousness?

[Fran]

Hi Fran, I partly agree with what you just said. My comment before that was about the subtext, of course, not Jack's actual literal meaning. It didn't occur to me that Paul might be asking literally what Jack was talking about, perhaps not having heard the phrase as a once-common euphemism for going to the restroom. Yes, Jack was making small talk and using a common idiom of the day. And it's a way to carry the conversation along with small talk.  To me, it works just fine on that level.

But most if not all of the lines in the film carry multiple meanings, and I think this one serves a second purpose. Subtextually, I see the entire dance scene as full of subtle remarks -- often digs -- about sexuality, including sexual orientation, sexual activity and masculinity. Men never dance with their wives. Jack and Randall don't have a smidgen of rhythm between them. Randall isn't mechanical. He wouldn't listen to LaShawn if he were going deaf tomorrow. LaShawn spent more on clothes than she made at N.M., which is more than Randall ever will make. Then there's the question of who Jack's actually asking to dance and the underlying meaning of Randall's invitation.

To me, the nose-powdering remark is another one of those. Subtly, unconsciously, Jack is saying there's nothing going on in bed that's worth getting gussied up for.

Katherine, you're right.  I was actually looking at the scene through more wishful eyes.

Admittedly, of all the scenes I've rewatched over and over, the Childress benefit dinner isn't one of them.  For one thing, I find Cassie particularly  annoying -- I think she has too many lines -- but I digress.  Maybe this will explain it better:  I don't want to see Randall putting the moves on Jack.  I don't want to hear Jack imply he's not sleeping with Lureen because I already know who he'd rather be sleeping with and that he's just killing time with Lureen till Ennis can get his act together.  Nor do I want to see Randall flirting with Jack because he's moving in on Ennis's territory, and that's not right. 

[Front-Ranger]

You're funny Fran. And I sympathize completely. 'Nother thing to keep in mind that powder is a powerful symbol. Men have their gunpowder--their guns. Women have THEIR weaponry--facepowder and such. Both types of powders are powerful reminders of potency. The flip side of this is the ashes--powder that represents the remainder of power, the residue, the emasculated form of powder. Both the ashes and the facepowder are present in this pivotal scene.

Later, there is a reminder of this as Lureen appears made up like a geisha or a Kabuki dancer when she confronts Ennis, altho thru telephone wires.

[serious crayons]

Nor do I want to see Randall flirting with Jack because he's moving in on Ennis's territory, and that's not right. 

I know what you mean! 

The flip side of this is the ashes--powder that represents the remainder of power, the residue, the emasculated form of powder. Both the ashes and the facepowder are present in this pivotal scene.

Good point that powder could be seen as a form of power for women. Lureen is still desperately trying to use her pow(d)er, but Jack just doesn't get it.

And... I just want to say wow to this observation!!

I think this is a truly interesting way to see this scene.  So, is this an example of the "ink-blot" structure of the film?  Or a microcosm of the film?  Maybe microcosm is most accurate?

It's like a little mini mirror, don't you think?

(I should say not all of this observation is entirely original to me; it's partly extrapolated from a discussion on imdb -- which took place last week!! Yet another amazing example of how you never stop discovering things about this film.)

[BBM-Cat]

Hi Elle and BBM-Cat,
This is a really interesting interpretation of the scene and Jack's physical response.  But, it's funny... I have tended to read the significance of the whole scene as being about Jack's strong "gaydar" and his ability to either read or draw-out other gay men.  I think Ennis is meant to be the most astonishing achievement in this regard... the fact that Jack was able to get Ennis to come out of his shell on Brokeback, etc. is of course one of the appeals of the relationship (I think from Ennis's perspective at least).  And, here again, Jack and Randall are able to figure each other out through subtle exchanges and glances at a dinner table with their wives present, etc.  It leaves the Jimbo exchange open for interpretation.  Jimbo appears to reject Jack completely, but I've heard discussions here and there where it's been suggested that Jack really did have an understanding that Jimbo might be interested in men but that Jimbo felt threatened by the public-ness of Jack's advance (in front of the bartender, etc.).

I think you're very perceptive about this Amanda - and I agree with the impression of Jack's gaydar and the nonverbal communication occuring between he and Randall. Which, I think, because the nonverbal communication was actually verbalized aloud by Randall it was a bit of a 'shock' to Jack. Though they were picking up on each other's signals, maybe Jack didn't expect it to go further than that. I'm speculating also that Jack was taken aback at being pursued, given as you describe, his "ability to either read or draw-out other gay men". It's all very interesting.

[Brown Eyes]

I think you're very perceptive about this Amanda - and I agree with the impression of Jack's gaydar and the nonverbal communication occuring between he and Randall. Which, I think, because the nonverbal communication was actually verbalized aloud by Randall it was a bit of a 'shock' to Jack. Though they were picking up on each other's signals, maybe Jack didn't expect it to go further than that. I'm speculating also that Jack was taken aback at being pursued, given as you describe, his "ability to either read or draw-out other gay men". It's all very interesting.

I completely agree that the whole situation shifts a bit out on the bench.  You're right that once the guys are alone and Randall feels comfortable enough to actually verbalize his intent.. I think Jack feels a little overwhelmed.  Maybe thinking that Randall is pretty "fast" here.  And I think the fact that Randall happens to mention fishing (of all things) probably triggers all sorts of anxiety for Jack about Ennis and what this new scenario with Randall could mean to his relationship with Ennis. 

But, yes, Jack's reactions seem much more guarded on the bench than at the dinner table.  At least that's how I perceive it.

I do like the suggestion that he might be concerned about being so easily read as gay by another guy in a public place.  It seems possible that this is one component of Jack's relative un-ease or stiffness at Randall's fishing trip suggestion.

This is also an interesting case where Jack isn't really the one making the first move.  With Ennis and Jimbo, Jack takes the first initiative.  So, maybe this throws him off a little too.  In this way Randall is lined up more with Lureen as a first-move maker... and I guess both are second-choice options for Jack.

[Shakesthecoffecan]

I have felt like Jack was picking up on Randalls signals and was not comfortable with it. His feelings for Ennis being one thing, the fact their wives were there was another. I think he volunteered to dance with LaShawn to get out of that situation. What I have wondered is was Lureen prompting him to do that with "Husbands, never seem to want to dance with their wives...."

Later on the bench Jack is obviously nervous, looking for something to say, coming to the realization this opportunity had now presented itself about the time Ms. Neiman-Markus made her powdered nose reappearance.

So my answer: he was about to, and apparently did at a later date.

[TOoP/Bruce]

I get the gaydar references in this scene and what it implies about Randall and Jack. 

I also think that Jack is hinting that Lureen left to talk privately with Lashawn, and that perhaps he suspects what the conversation is about, even though Randall seems to be clueless on the subject.  I am assuming that if the ladies left to powder their noses together, Lureen is the one who initiated the leave-taking. 

I've always wondered what it is that Jack suspects Lureen is talking about with Lashawn...

[shortfiction]

It was clear in the dance scene that Jack just wanted to get some dancing done with anyone other than his own wife.   However, Randall did not start flirting until they were outside on the bench.   I am sure that Randall was indeed the other ranch fella, and that he was also the one Jack was having an affair with, though of course he lied to Ennis about it and said it was the foreman's wife. 

[Brown Eyes]

At least from my perspective... I think the flirting started at the dinner table.  And I think it mostly happened silently through glances and very veiled conversation.  My sense is that the eye-contact (especially) made over dinner encouraged Randall to feel confident about being really rather forward in his suggestion to Jack on the bench.

It never ceases to amaze me how many different interpretations can be applied to almost any scene in BBM.  And the other thing that amazes me... is the confidence with which most of us perceive certain scenes and meanings.  Coming across very different readings/interpretations of certain scenes can actually come as a surprise or even a shock.  I think this ability to have multiple readings of different scenes (and the movie as a whole, really) is what makes BBM a film and cinematic art (more than just a movie).  Amazing.

[Shakesthecoffecan]

I've always wondered what it is that Jack suspects Lureen is talking about with Lashawn...

I doubt Lureen is talking about anything.