gay vikings- could it be true...

[milomorris]

Look to Socialist Scandinavia and New Old Europe for actual equality.

What do women there have that women here do not??

[delalluvia]

Thank you VERY much for this, sopy.

The following indicates that Vikings were OK with man2man sex as long as homosexual men still behaved like other men in daily life. That's the basics of androphilia.

Homosexuality was not regarded by the Viking peoples as being evil, perverted, innately against the laws of nature or any of the other baggage about the concept that Christian belief has provided Western culture. Rather, it was felt that a man who subjected himself to another in sexual affairs would do the same in other areas, being a follower rather than a leader, and allowing others to do his thinking or fighting for him. Thus, homosexual sex was not what was condemned, but rather the failure to stand for one's self and make one's own decisions, to fight one's own fights, which went directly against the Nordic ethic of self-reliance. (Sørenson 20).

But this was true in most societies where male homosexuality was a normal part of society?  That as long as a man was a top, it was fine, but if he were a bottom, then society questioned his manliness however they defined it.  Sadly, in most male/male relationships someone has to bottom at sometime, so that means men tried to stay tops, which limited the bottoms or men willing to bottom and the bottoms were not held in very great respect.

[milomorris]

But this was true in most societies where male homosexuality was a normal part of society?  That as long as a man was a top, it was fine, but if he were a bottom, then society questioned his manliness however they defined it.  Sadly, in most male/male relationships someone has to bottom at sometime, so that means men tried to stay tops, which limited the bottoms or men willing to bottom and the bottoms were not held in very great respect.

In Greece and Rome for sure. Of course, nobody (anywhere) has been able to answer the question of how anyone but the men themselves knew who topped and who bottomed. My understanding, though, is that the assumption of weakness/effeminacy could easily be dispelled by living an honorable and respectable life.

[delalluvia]

In Greece and Rome for sure. Of course, nobody (anywhere) has been able to answer the question of how anyone but the men themselves knew who topped and who bottomed. My understanding, though, is that the assumption of weakness/effeminacy could easily be dispelled by living an honorable and respectable life.

I thought that would be obvious.

You're assuming that the men themselves didn't gossip or the men didn't have orgies or men didn't have menage a trois where servants/slaves were present or that they didn't get angry or jealous with one another and 'out' each other in public.

[Jeff Wrangler]

But this was true in most societies where male homosexuality was a normal part of society?  That as long as a man was a top, it was fine, but if he were a bottom, then society questioned his manliness however they defined it.  Sadly, in most male/male relationships someone has to bottom at sometime, so that means men tried to stay tops, which limited the bottoms or men willing to bottom and the bottoms were not held in very great respect.

Indeed. Women, slave boys, and boy prostitutes (who were also probably slaves) got fucked. Adult male citizens did not. At least in theory.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Not a chance.  the reason the Vikings were so successful at conquest is that, like Rosie the Riveter and the female empowerment that took place during the New Deal era under Roosevelt that enabled women into professions in the United States previously relegated to men only, Viking society was based upon a polytheistic conception that had both male and female gods and god-warriors including Thor (after which Thursday is named) and Freya (after which Friday is named) and women ran the households and the towns along with male and female elders, year round while men went out to fish, conquer and plunder.  They were also responsible for the agriculture and government.  It's modern America where you find this "woman's place is in the home" nonsense.  Look to Socialist Scandinavia and New Old Europe for actual equality.

Fair enough. Then how does one account for the absence of lesbianism in the laws and the records? I'm not disputing, but the question remains unanswered. And I guess we still have no idea why some guy was buried in a woman's clothing. 

you might wish to read Harry Harrison's historical novels about the Vikings entitled "The Hammer and the Cross Series"

http://www.harryharrison.com/

very well done and I'll vouch for their accuracy...

Surely you're not implying you were there?  

[milomorris]

I thought that would be obvious.

You're assuming that the men themselves didn't gossip or the men didn't have orgies or men didn't have menage a trois where servants/slaves were present or that they didn't get angry or jealous with one another and 'out' each other in public.

Yep. I'm assuming that men will be honorable. Those that kiss and tell do not deserve to be kissed at all.

[milomorris]

What tangled webs we weave when first we practice to deceive.

It's okay to bottom so long as you lie about it?  And this is somehow honorable?  

Where did I say that??

[louisev]

Fair enough. Then how does one account for the absence of lesbianism in the laws and the records? I'm not disputing, but the question remains unanswered. And I guess we still have no idea why some guy was buried in a woman's clothing. 

Surely you're not implying you were there?  

surely!

[louisev]

What tangled webs we weave when first we practice to deceive.

It's okay to bottom so long as you lie about it?  And this is somehow honorable?  

So honor is defined as dishonesty.  What a load of horseshit, and how Orwellian.

Androphila = homophobia and sexism.

Androphilia = dishonesty.

Androphila = silly little boys who think being a man is all about appearances and not substance.

it's all been said by the press reviews of Jack Donovan's 'manifesto.' That new male pride the Androphiliac crowing about?  it's called the closet.